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The missing piece of the YOU ARE PETER puzzle

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Alfred Persson, Dec 13, 2014.

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  1. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Nice try, but if I had said something like that, you'd be right to object. As you know, I didn't. ;)

    What I said, in effect, was that we all, as Christians, believe in the reality of much that is not visible to us. If you cannot accept that this is correct to say, please explain why.
     
  2. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    No
     
  3. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    No...you equated the belief in the invisible church to the communion of saints....which is not a logical comparison since the cimmunity of saints has basis in Scripture and Tradition and the invisible church does not.
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    No, I didn't. I said that they are both real but invisible and that any Catholic who believes in the latter ought to be able to understand the former.
     
  5. Metal Minister

    Metal Minister New Year, Still Old School!

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    Then I'm confused. If you don't believe in the invisible church (the church of all believers across all denominations) then what do you believe?
     
  6. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    Scripture and Tradition. You?
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    No church, then?
     
  8. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    Yes it does. Paul mentions them in Romans 2:14, and Psalm 19 mentions every language, presumably including those not yet evangelized by any of the visible churches.
     
  9. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    But who is able to discern the Holy Spirit?
    There is really very little difference between EO and RC. And no contradiction, at least to most Catholics. But you guys like to emphasize differences, so go be sidetracked.
    Regarding the topic, there is no possible refutation of what Jesus means when he speaks to Peter in Matt 16:18-20, in light of much of the NT. Unless your tradition ignores the words, as they often do with John 6.
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I hear that from RCs, but seldom from EOs....and NEVER when the subject is this one!
     
  11. Metal Minister

    Metal Minister New Year, Still Old School!

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    I'm interested to know, has the RCC given an infallible exegesis of these two passages? I'm honestly curious because I haven't heard of it. If so, can you provide a link please? Thanks! :)
     
  12. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Jesus does not build it upon Peter.
    Jesus builds His church on the confession Peter gives about who Jesus is.
    So consider Jesus's church is built upon by those who confess Christ as Lord as it has been revealed to such persons by the Father in Heaven.


    15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

    16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

    17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven.”

    20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.


    The truth must be revealed to a person by the Trinity. Ignore the keys, they are to do with Peter's apostolic authority, not building the church.

    The Lord Jesus builds His church, not Peter.
    He builds the church when people believe in Him and confess Jesus as Christ of God.
    That is a gift that comes from above from God by revelation.

    Acts 2
    46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church[h] daily those who were being saved.
     
  13. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Just as God renamed Abram to Abraham and promised that his descendants would be greater than the stars in the sky, God (Jesus) renamed Simon and built His church on Peter. The confession, as you try to differentiate, came from Peter through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit identified Peter as the one to lead the Church, and so he did.
    The only thing I'm disagreeing with you on is that Jesus did not build His church on Peter. Everything else, I can thumbs up. But agreeing with that does not contradict Peter being the Rock of the Church.
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    You noticed, I hope, that the final sentence in barry's statement above has no connection to the elaborate array of data that preceded it. This is because there is no connection between what Jesus said to Peter (however we want to interpret it) and the claims of hundreds of other men of later times claiming to be de facto inheritors of what Jesus said to Peter.
     
  15. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    This would be interesting if other men actually claimed to be what you say they claim they are. They don't, in fact, claim it. The Holy Spirit claims it, they accept the Holy Spirit's Word. You act like men run for the office of pope, like Jeb Bush is going to run for president, which is a mischaracterization.
     
  16. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    I assume a catholic will say Peter builds the church being given authority the keys of binding and loosing. and believe in Apostolic succession which really makes no sense seemingly to be related of an earthly kingdom.

    Jesus tells us He has the keys of hell and death in Rev. v18

    “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

    18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.


    which to me tells us Jesus is in control of eternal life, and not Peter.

    Jesus testifies He is life itself, death has no hold on Him, Jesus has the authority, is worthy and has all the power. Those keys are telling us that.

    Some commentary

    16:18 Peter . . . rock. The name “Peter” is a play on the Greek word for “rock” (petra). There are four leading interpretations of this play on words: (a) Peter’s confession that Jesus is “the Christ” (v. 16) is the rock upon which the church is built; (b) Jesus Himself is the rock, as Peter later testifies (1 Pet. 2:5–8); (c) Peter, as the representative apostle, is a foundation in the church (Eph. 2:20); (d) Peter represents by his confession the type of person on which the true church will be built.

    The first and second possibilities are often defended by pointing out that Peter’s name is petros and the rock is petra. But this linguistic difference is not significant for this context. The second possibility is unlikely because Jesus describes Himself in this passage as not the foundation but the builder of the church.

    If it had not been for the abuse of this passage by the Roman Catholic Church, it is unlikely that any doubt would have arisen that the reference is to Peter. But the foundational rock is Peter as a representative apostle (v. 15 note) whose confession of Christ has been revealed to him by the Father. As Peter himself later declares (1 Pet. 2:4–8), all believers have become “living stones” by virtue of their association with Christ, with the apostles as the foundation (Eph. 2:20, 21; Rev. 21:14). When Peter says that Jesus must not go to the cross, he is not called a foundation rock, but a stumbling block (v. 23 and text note).

    gates of hell. In the Old Testament and other literature the “gates of Sheol” or the “gates of death” are equivalent to “death.” “The gates of hell” may also be a reference to “death.”
     
  17. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    The Catechism, pp 551-553 regarding Peter.
    pp 1322-1401 regarding the Eucharist
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Something like that. BUT it can't be argued that it's in the Bible passage (and that's what was being claimed). Whatever Jesus intended for Peter, the idea that he was to pass it on (and to whom?) is not part of the Scriptures. That is why, I assume, that barryatlake made that elaborate explanation of his understanding about Jesus giving Peter the keys etc. but couldn't connect it to the Papacy and so simply said , "Only the Catholic Church recognizes and proves through an unbroken lineage of successors that her foundation is Peter."

    The lineage is NOT unbroken, for one thing, and even if there is one, it doesn't say anything about that in the Bible nor does the passage in Matthew connect Peter getting the keys with later men saying that they'd been passed to them.
     
  19. Rick Otto

    Rick Otto The Dude Abides

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    I keep getting the feeling these guys have a corner on The Holy Spirit.
    That don't wash.
    ...And the allegation of categorical ignoring could equaly be leveled right back.

    Let's not go there. lol
     
  20. Mary of Bethany

    Mary of Bethany Only one thing is needful. Supporter

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    This is true. :)
     
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