A question asked on the road

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
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Matthew 16
13 Then Jesus came into the neighbourhood of Caesarea Philippi; and there he asked his disciples, What do men say of the Son of Man? Who do they think he is?​
14 Some say John the Baptist, they told him, others Elias, others again, Jeremy or one of the prophets.​
15 Jesus said to them, And what of you? Who do you say that I am?​
16 Then Simon Peter answered, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.✻​
vv. 13-16: Mk. 8.27; Lk. 9.18.
17 And Jesus answered him, Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jonah; it is not flesh and blood, it is my Father in heaven that has revealed this to thee.​
18 And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it;​
19 and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.​

Commentary:
Greek: Kago. And I say to thee, and tell thee why I before declared, (Joh_1:42) that thou shouldst be called Peter, for thou art constituted the rock upon which, as a foundation, I will build my Church, and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates (i.e. the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if they overturn its foundation, (i.e. thee and thy successors) they will overturn also the Church that rests upon it. Christ therefore here promises to Peter, that he and his successors should be to the end, as long as the Church should last, its supreme pastors and princes. (Tirinus)

--- In the Syriac tongue, which is that which Jesus Christ spoke, there is no difference of genders, as there is in Latin, between patra, a rock, and Petrus, Peter; hence, in the original language, the allusion was both more natural and more simple. (Bible de Vence)

--Thou art Peter;[2] and upon this (i.e. upon thee, according to the literal and general exposition of the ancient Fathers) I will build my church. It is true St. Augustine, in one or two places, thus expounds these words, and upon this rock, (i.e. upon myself: )or upon this rock, which Peter hath confessed: yet he owns that he had also given the other interpretation, by which Peter himself was the rock. Some Fathers have also expounded it, upon this faith, which Peter confessed; but then they take not faith, as separated from the person of Peter, but on Peter, as holding the true faith. No one questions but that Christ himself is the great foundation-stone, the chief corner-stone, as St. Paul tells the Ephesians; Chap. ii, ver. 20.) but it is also certain, that all the apostles may be called foundation-stones of the Church, as represented Rev_21:14 In the mean time, St. Peter (called therefore Cephas, a rock) was the first and chief foundation-stone among the apostles, on whom Christ promised to build his Church. (Witham)

--- Thou art Peter, &c. As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ, so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz. that he, to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, (Joh_1:42) should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be next to Christ himself, the chief foundation-stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fullness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

--- Upon this rock, &c. The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews, which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built; Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ by building his house, that is, his Church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder. (Mat_7:24-25.)

--- The gates of hell, &c. That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself or his agents. For as the Church is here likened to a house, or fortress, the gates of which, i.e. the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or Church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the Church of Christ. (Challoner)

--- The gates, in the Oriental style, signify the powers; thus, to this day, we designate the Ottoman or Turkish empire by the Ottoman port. The princes were wont to hold their courts at the gates of the city. (Bible de Vence)

[BIBLIOGRAPHY]
St. Augustine, serm. 13, de Verbis Domini, in the new edit. serm. 76. t. v. p. 415, expounds these words super hanc Petram, i.e. super hanc Petram, quam confessus es, super meipsum. See also tract. 24. in Joan, t. iii. p. 822. But he elsewhere gave the common interpretation, as he says, lib. i. Retrac. and in Psal. lxix. Petrus, qui paulo ante Christum confessus erat filium Dei, & in illa Confessione appellatus erat Petra, super quam fabrificatur Ecclesia, &c. See St. Jerome on this place, lib. iii. p. 97. ædificabo (inquit Christus) super te Ecclesiam meam. (St. John Chrysostom hom. lv. in Matt. &c.)
 
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RandyPNW

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While it is true that God blessed Peter as one of the founders of the Church, he was not the *only* founder of the Church. Paul identifies all of the apostles as the "founders" of the Church.

Eph 2.20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Please note above who the "Rock" is in the above quote. Christ Jesus himself is the "chief cornerstone!"

So we cannot place the progress of the Church in history as a justification for validating every change in that society. We cannot use Peter as a "1st Pope."

If that is so, then we would have to say that Peter was expressed in Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox, and the multitudes of other founders of various traditions springing out of the historic church. We cannot say that "Peter" must be connected only with "the Pope," nor with any other specific leader, such as Martin Luther.

Peter did not found a succession, but rather, a people who discover the faith. God began with Peter at Jerusalem, then in the rest of Israel, and finally throughout the world. But what began in Jerusalem began to take on many different forms as it worked its way out into the world.

Peter did not found an official church tradition. He founded a people who recognize Jesus as the Christ. And that people can choose any number of traditions, and necessarily so, as the church grew out into and developed within many different political systems and societies.
 
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BobRyan

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Eph 2.20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Please note above who the "Rock" is in the above quote. Christ Jesus himself is the "chief cornerstone!"

So we cannot place the progress of the Church in history as a justification for validating every change in that society. We cannot use Peter as a "1st Pope."
Amen -

1 Cor 3:11 For no other foundation (Petra - Rock) can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matt 16 "you are Petrose" (pebble) and "on this Petra - Foundation stone" - Christ, I will build My church

In the same chapter where Jesus says to Peter "get thee behind me Satan".

Matt 7:24 Jesus said that to "build on the foundation" (Petra) is to follow the words of Jesus.
"Everyone who hears these words of MINE and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the PETRA (Rock - Foundation stone)
 
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Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
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Amen -

1 Cor 3:11 For no other foundation (Petra - Rock) can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matt 16 "you are Petrose" (pebble) and "on this Petra - Foundation stone" - Christ, I will build My church

In the same chapter where Jesus says to Peter "get thee behind me Satan".

Matt 7:24 Jesus said that to "build on the foundation" (Petra) is to follow the words of Jesus.
"Everyone who hears these words of MINE and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the PETRA (Rock - Foundation stone)
A frequently repeated fiction is no less a fiction for having been frequently repeated.
 
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RandyPNW

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Amen -

1 Cor 3:11 For no other foundation (Petra - Rock) can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matt 16 "you are Petrose" (pebble) and "on this Petra - Foundation stone" - Christ, I will build My church

In the same chapter where Jesus says to Peter "get thee behind me Satan".

Matt 7:24 Jesus said that to "build on the foundation" (Petra) is to follow the words of Jesus.
"Everyone who hears these words of MINE and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the PETRA (Rock - Foundation stone)
Great point, which extends beyond my own point, supports that point, and further clarifies it. If Peter can turn away, momentarily, to follow Satan, so can historical Popes.

And not only have they done so at times, some have turned to evil consistently, murdering fellow Christians who challenged their own self-determined orthodoxy. Giving a man this kind of "political power" in the name of religion goes against what Jesus said should be different than the political ways of pagans.

There is nothing wrong with having an ecclesiastical structure, assuming it does not turn away to follow Satan. But if Peter could be deceived by Satan, so can any Pope. We must follow Christ, and not mere men!
 
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RileyG

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While it is true that God blessed Peter as one of the founders of the Church, he was not the *only* founder of the Church. Paul identifies all of the apostles as the "founders" of the Church.

Eph 2.20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Please note above who the "Rock" is in the above quote. Christ Jesus himself is the "chief cornerstone!"

So we cannot place the progress of the Church in history as a justification for validating every change in that society. We cannot use Peter as a "1st Pope."

If that is so, then we would have to say that Peter was expressed in Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox, and the multitudes of other founders of various traditions springing out of the historic church. We cannot say that "Peter" must be connected only with "the Pope," nor with any other specific leader, such as Martin Luther.

Peter did not found a succession, but rather, a people who discover the faith. God began with Peter at Jerusalem, then in the rest of Israel, and finally throughout the world. But what began in Jerusalem began to take on many different forms as it worked its way out into the world.

Peter did not found an official church tradition. He founded a people who recognize Jesus as the Christ. And that people can choose any number of traditions, and necessarily so, as the church grew out into and developed within many different political systems and societies.
Actually, Peter was first Bishop in Antioch then Bishop of Rome. After his death, Linus succeeded him so forth and so on until we have Pope Francis. That is not disputed.
 
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RileyG

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Amen -

1 Cor 3:11 For no other foundation (Petra - Rock) can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matt 16 "you are Petrose" (pebble) and "on this Petra - Foundation stone" - Christ, I will build My church

In the same chapter where Jesus says to Peter "get thee behind me Satan".

Matt 7:24 Jesus said that to "build on the foundation" (Petra) is to follow the words of Jesus.
"Everyone who hears these words of MINE and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the PETRA (Rock - Foundation stone)
Forgive me, where did you get pebble from? His name literally means Rock. Of course he was imperfect, no one is claiming that all followers of Christ are perfect- we are sinners.
 
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RandyPNW

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Actually, Peter was first Bishop in Antioch then Bishop of Rome. After his death, Linus succeeded him so forth and so on until we have Pope Francis. That is not disputed.
It most certainly is disputed, and I just disputed it. If your tradition doesn't dispute it, it should. Sectarianism is not good Christian character.
 
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RileyG

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It most certainly is disputed, and I just disputed it. If your tradition doesn't dispute it, it should. Sectarianism is not good Christian character.
I'm not saying you accept the Pope, rather it is accepted that the Catholic (and Orthodox) bishops are legitimate successors to the apostles. Apostolic succession.

By sectarianism you mean being attached to a sect of Christianity? correct?
 
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RandyPNW

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I'm not saying you accept the Pope, rather it is accepted that the Catholic (and Orthodox) bishops are legitimate successors to the apostles. Apostolic succession.

By sectarianism you mean being attached to a sect of Christianity? correct?
No, Sectarianism is a divisive, critical spirit that separates Christians. I'm all for the many divisions of Christian tradition, for the many different organizations. When one group claims to have the supremacy, in a political sense, over all others, there is something "divisive" about that. Catholicism should end its claim to supremacy over all other church traditions, Orthodox, Protestant, and even Separatist. In Christ we should find love and unity, considering others better than ourselves. That is true spirituality.

My point about succession was that there is no consensus that this succession was some kind of priestly order. Obviously, when a leader over an organization dies, one must take his place. Catholic succession seems to claim a "right of tradition" for its own organization, extending that authority way beyond the bounds of the early leaders. Expansion of a church organization can be spiritual, and it can also be authoritarian and worldly.

The kings of Israel claimed a succession too, both in the northern Kingdom of Israel and in the southern Kingdom of Judah. Though they were recognized as legitimate leaders over their respective territories, this did not reflect good leadership necessarily, nor did it indicate that God approved of it. Some things God has allowed by concession to the need to have leaders, no matter how bad.
 
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RileyG

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No, Sectarianism is a divisive, critical spirit that separates Christians. I'm all for the many divisions of Christian tradition, for the many different organizations. When one group claims to have the supremacy, in a political sense, over all others, there is something "divisive" about that. Catholicism should end its claim to supremacy over all other church traditions, Orthodox, Protestant, and even Separatist. In Christ we should find love and unity, considering others better than ourselves. That is true spirituality.
Just so you are aware, The Orthodox Church also claims to be the One True Church. As does Catholicism. I'm all for Christian unity, but I am going off topic.
 
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BobRyan

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Forgive me, where did you get pebble from? His name literally means Rock. Of course he was imperfect, no one is claiming that all followers of Christ are perfect- we are sinners.
Petros: Greek - pebble as compared against "foundation stone" or "Rock cliff"

4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros ("small stone") then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra ("cliff, boulder," Abbott-Smith).
 
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BobRyan

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1 Cor 3:11 For no other foundation (Petra - Rock) can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Matt 16 "you are Petrose" (pebble) and "on this Petra - Foundation stone" - Christ, I will build My church

In the same chapter where Jesus says to Peter "get thee behind me Satan".

Matt 7:24 Jesus said that to "build on the foundation" (Petra) is to follow the words of Jesus.
"Everyone who hears these words of MINE and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the PETRA (Rock - Foundation stone)
A frequently repeated fiction is no less a fiction for having been frequently repeated.
Responding to a quote of scripture as if that scripture is fiction - is not a very compelling argument.
 
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RileyG

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Petros: Greek - pebble as compared against "foundation stone" or "Rock cliff"

4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros ("small stone") then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra ("cliff, boulder," Abbott-Smith).
The NT was written koine Greek. Cephas means Rock in koine Greek.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Responding to a quote of scripture as if that scripture is fiction - is not a very compelling argument.
Twisting a reply for some cheap point is not a compelling argument.
 
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RandyPNW

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Just so you are aware, The Orthodox Church also claims to be the One True Church. As does Catholicism. I'm all for Christian unity, but I am going off topic.
Yes, I can understand that the original Church organization took place within an Empire, which caused Christians at that time to confuse organizational, imperial unity with spiritual, Christian unity. Clearly, Christian unity failed as political situations evolved and changed.

The lesson is clear. The Gospel is designed to advance into all political arenas. And Christian unity is *not* to be based on political or organizational unity alone. Sectarianism is a serious threat to Christian unity.
 
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RileyG

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Yes, I can understand that the original Church organization took place within an Empire, which caused Christians at that time to confuse organizational, imperial unity with spiritual, Christian unity. Clearly, Christian unity failed as political situations evolved and changed.

The lesson is clear. The Gospel is designed to advance into all political arenas. And Christian unity is *not* to be based on political or organizational unity alone. Sectarianism is a serious threat to Christian unity.
I agree.
 
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RandyPNW

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….he wouldn’t call Peter a feminine name, Petra.
Why would Paul call Christ a feminine name?
1 Cor 10.3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
 
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Why would Paul call Christ a feminine name?
1 Cor 10.3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
No. He didn't? What are you saying?

You are Cephas (Rock) and upon this Rock, I will build my Church.

Unless I'm not following your thought?
 
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