the miracle of forgiveness by w kimball??

[MormonFriend]

... you keep quoting come as little children, are you trying to say we can go back in time and become children, or shrink some how or regress mentally, I doubt it, so clearly it is not something we can actually "do" but we can accept just as a child accepts what its parent says.

Why do you pick up on only that part of the scripture, especially when I prefaced the intended concept (conversion) before I quoted it?

Can we return to God if we are not converted?
Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Who would ever interpret that as going back in time? Conversion includes, as you said, accepting what our parents teach us. Accepting means obeying!

So, in light of the scripture, can we return to God if we are not converted?

 

[MormonFriend]

yes it actually does because the second you add anything to Grace it is no longer Grace, it is not undeserved.

...

Faith is added to Grace. Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[peebly63]

Faith is added to Grace. Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

you are believing on Jesus as your Saviour, it is showing faith, it's not like you are doing a great action to make yourself worthy of Salvation because by yourself you will never be worthy..

 

[peebly63]

Matthew 11:29
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

What is a yoke?


Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Hebrews 13:16
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.


1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Yes, it appears God looks beyond the fitly rags and sees our potential. That scripture of filthy rags has to be one of the most mal-quoted applications ever! Right after that declaration, Isaiah recorded: 64 8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Did God create the filthiness? Or can we allow ourselves to be malleable clay so He can transform us to be clean? It is the gospel principles that Jesus taught that shape us. If we are rebellious, if we hold fast to our pride and do not submit our will to God, we are not malleable. We remain filthy!


I do not look at works as a quota, by which salvation is earned. I look at works as a spiritual exercise by which we learn to put the flesh to death and strengthen the spirit. When we become spiritually minded, as described in Romans 8, we will understand the peace that Jesus left us. If this conversion is growing, there will be no need to worry about when Jesus comes again.
Jesus is not looking for our works per se, but if we endure to the end is the requirement for salvation.
2 Timothy 4: 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

It seems that way when you take individual doctrines and beliefs from our big picture puzzle, and try to fit them into the scheme of your big picture puzzle. Look at how they fit in our big picture, and you will see how all the pieces fit, and you don't have to omit other scriptures like you do with "All things are possible to those who believe." But it does take time and effort to put the pieces together, line upon line and precept upon precept. There must be the milk and meat concept, knowing that patience and faith is required to see the big picture. As we change through learning obedience, so does our perception and understanding.

We do not always see things the way they really are, but we always see things the way they WE really are. The more we become Christlike, the more we see all things as they really are, even unto the fullness. That means as we repent, we become more Christlike.

I know how your pieces fit, you believe Jesus atones for the sin of adam and the individual has to atone for their own sins.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I know how your pieces fit, you believe Jesus atones for the sin of adam and the individual has to atone for their own sins.

And then expect God to make up the difference.

 

[peebly63]

Why do you pick up on only that part of the scripture, especially when I prefaced the intended concept (conversion) before I quoted it?

Can we return to God if we are not converted?
Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Who would ever interpret that as going back in time? Conversion includes, as you said, accepting what our parents teach us. Accepting means obeying!

So, in light of the scripture, can we return to God if we are not converted?

we are converted when we accept Jesus as our Saviour, it say in romans we move from death in to life, can we go back to death if we have been reborn , so to speak.

it's as simple as this you say the word says we must become as little children, i think we agree this does not mean literally, as we have no time travel, so it must be figuratively, so it says accept the gospel as simply as it is given, we know this does not mean blindly as it says test the word and I am convinced, It means completely as a child accepts what the parents say, you have to obey it and to obey it you accept it, the finished work between God and the the sacrifice God put up for us in the form of Jesus.

we can work for salvation all our lives but we are saved if we accept Jesus, your work does not save you or keep you saved.

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend
Faith is added to Grace. Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

you are believing on Jesus as your Saviour, it is showing faith, it's not like you are doing a great action to make yourself worthy of Salvation because by yourself you will never be worthy..

Who ever claimed we can do it by ourselves? It says Grace through faith. There are stringent definitions of faith. Belief is only a part of it. One cannot "dumb down" the doctrine of faith and expect the intended results.

 

[MormonFriend]

we are converted when we accept Jesus as our Saviour, ...

Peter accepted Jesus as his Savior, and was not yet converted!
Luke 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

What do you suppose was missing?

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, .... ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[MormonFriend]

I know how your pieces fit, you believe Jesus atones for the sin of adam and the individual has to atone for their own sins.

I just spent a long time putting together scriptural pieces that do not fit into the big picture you have been trying to explain to me, and this is all I get? If you cannot tell me how they fit in, then how can you give me a reason for the hope that is in you? If you do not know how your pieces fit together, how could you claim to know how ours do?

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend
Faith is added to Grace. Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

you are believing on Jesus as your Saviour, it is showing faith, it's not like you are doing a great action to make yourself worthy of Salvation because by yourself you will never be worthy..

How does a verbal declaration of belief SHOW faith? The only thing that can be shown are the lips moving!

 

[peebly63]

How does a verbal declaration of belief SHOW faith? The only thing that can be shown are the lips moving!

ask that to Jesus when he spoke to the thief on the cross??
Romans10 vs 9
King James Bible
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[Norah63]

The thief moved what he could. Now let each of go and do what we can.
Don't use another mans disability to hamper our ability.

 

[MormonFriend]

ask that to Jesus when he spoke to the thief on the cross??
...

The thief met Jesus in Paradise, not where the Father is. What did Jesus say to Mary when she tried to touch Him?

 

[peebly63]

The thief met Jesus in Paradise, not where the Father is. What did Jesus say to Mary when she tried to touch Him?

where the thief went is irrelevant to what i said , the fact is he gained by realising and confessing who Jesus was, he did nothing good with his life, had no time to forgive, become a little child, do good works, get baptised or marry in a mormon temple but Jesus took his words as enough.

he received because he did what scripture asked, he believed on Jesus.

 

[MormonFriend]

where the thief went is irrelevant to what i said , the fact is he gained by realising and confessing who Jesus was, he did nothing good with his life, had no time to forgive, become a little child, do good works, get baptised or marry in a mormon temple but Jesus took his words as enough.

he received because he did what scripture asked, he believed on Jesus.

It is extremely relevant if this piece of the puzzle fits somewhere in your big picture! We do not have record of what the thief GAINED!

1 Peter 4:
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

How does this doctrine fit into your big picture? The thief had not yet been judged. He had to hear and accept he gospel. We do not have record that he did. I hope he did.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 

[peebly63]

It is extremely relevant if this piece of the puzzle fits somewhere in your big picture!

1 Peter 4:
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

How does this doctrine fit into your big picture? The thief had not yet been judged. He had to hear and accept he gospel. We do not have record that he did. I hope he did.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

for the point of this debate paradise does not matter, make another thread as it is a huge subject.

the thief clearly did what John 3 16 says he believed on Jesus and the result was Jesus saying you will be with me today in paradise, he must have been moved by the spirit to recognise his saviour and that belief saved him

 

[MormonFriend]

for the point of this debate paradise does not matter, make another thread as it is a huge subject.

the thief clearly did what John 3 16 says he believed on Jesus and the result was Jesus saying you will be with me today in paradise, he must have been moved by the spirit to recognise his saviour and that belief saved him

. No, this simple example is fitting to the OP. You say Grace alone saves us. In your big picture, to be saved is to return to the Father. There is no scriptural evidence that the thief returned to the Father. He was with Jesus in Paradise, but we know that is not where the Father is, as Jesus appeared 3 days later to Mary and told her He has not yet ascended to the Father. We know that the gospel is being preached to the dead. The gospel defines what we must do to return to the Father. I have covered many of those requirements, and you deny them as being necessary, yet you offer no explanation as to how or where these critical teachings fit in your big picture. Shall we just tear those scriptures out of the Bible? If you do not know where these fit, then you have not seen the big picture. (And everyone goes through this process of learning. The question is, will they learn?)

That sums up the "debate" thus far, but I do not care for the term "debate". The things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God, not by winning a debate. To be a winner, we must ask God personally how these pieces of the puzzle fit together. Until we receive that personal tutoring, we cannot fit the pieces together, and hence do not see the big picture!

 

[peebly63]

. No, this simple example is fitting to the OP. You say Grace alone saves us. In your big picture, to be saved is to return to the Father. There is no scriptural evidence that the thief returned to the Father. He was with Jesus in Paradise, but we know that is not where the Father is, as Jesus appeared 3 days later to Mary and told her He has not yet ascended to the Father. We know that the gospel is being preached to the dead. The gospel defines what we must do to return to the Father. I have covered many of those requirements, and you deny them as being necessary, yet you offer no explanation as to how or where these critical teachings fit in your big picture. Shall we just tear those scriptures out of the Bible? If you do not know where these fit, then you have not seen the big picture. (And everyone goes through this process of learning. The question is, will they learn?)

That sums up the "debate" thus far, but I do not care for the term "debate". The things of God are only understood by the Spirit of God, not by winning a debate. To be a winner, we must ask God personally how these pieces of the puzzle fit together. Until we receive that personal tutoring, we cannot fit the pieces together, and hence do not see the big picture!

we have no need to tear anything out of the bible, we have no reason to add to the scriptures, we do not need to add temple marriages, plural marriages and all the lds doctrines.

we know the thief could not go to heaven as Jesus had not yet made that possible we do know the thief despite his past was given a place in paradise, now would you say that would be the normal place for a thief, murderer, sinner or what ever else he was.

he earned that place by believing on Jesus, that one act cleansed his life of sin, that is Grace.

 

[MormonFriend]

we have no need to tear anything out of the bible, ...

Ignoring the scriptures that don't fit in with with your big picture is doing the same as tearing them out. You don't even have a big picture if you do not fit them in.

 

[peebly63]

Ignoring the scriptures that don't fit in with with your big picture is doing the same as tearing them out. You don't even have a big picture if you do not fit them in.

Ignoring scripture is never a good idea, again that is why I prefer to avoid denominations as they force principals, sometimes non biblical principals on to scripture. ,like having to marry in the mormon temple.

I believe the bible is complete and correct so if two scriptures appear to contradict, we must search out there meaning so they do not as they cannot and it must be down to our understanding.