the miracle of forgiveness by w kimball??

[peebly63]

According to Mormonism He was married, of course, but in our translated-incorrectly/incomplete/imperfect Bible there is no record of any such ceremony/-ies. It was always a matter of curiosity to me that Joseph Smith didn't include it in that "most correct" Book of Mormon - or in the D&C or PofGP.

i would guess that the lds think he married mary magdalene but wouldn't plural marriages actually be necessary and if he married wouldn't it have to have been in a mormon temple any way??

 

[Moodshadow]

i would guess that the lds think he married mary magdalene but wouldn't plural marriages actually be necessary and if he married wouldn't it have to have been in a mormon temple any way??

Mormonism claims to be a restoration of Christ's church, the way He originally had it organized. If that were true, and since He was the supreme Exemplar, then yes, there would have been the equivalent of Mormon temple ordinances in His time, and He would have availed Himself of them. You and I and every other non-LDS person on earth do not believe that to be the case.

 

[MormonFriend]

When you don't have an answer or meaningful response to a good point, simply change the subject with distraction tactics. Nice work people!

 

[peebly63]

any way back to subject is salvation by grace the work of the devil?

 

[bbbbbbb]

According to Mormonism He was married, of course, but in our translated-incorrectly/incomplete/imperfect Bible there is no record of any such ceremony/-ies. It was always a matter of curiosity to me that Joseph Smith didn't include it in that "most correct" Book of Mormon - or in the D&C or PofGP.

I think there were some doctrines that were too hot to handle even for Joseph Smith. It was difficult enough to get across the idea of a physical god having intercourse with Mary in order to beget Jesus. This idea was probably just too over-the-top and thus was kept under wraps, where it remains.

 

[MormonFriend]

any way back to subject is salvation by grace the work of the devil?

My last post (#253), the one not answered except by irrelevant distraction tactics, illustrates why and how it is the work of the devil.

 

[Moodshadow]

I think there were some doctrines that were too hot to handle even for Joseph Smith. It was difficult enough to get across the idea of a physical god having intercourse with Mary in order to beget Jesus. This idea was probably just too over-the-top and thus was kept under wraps, where it remains.

Brother Brigham had plenty to say about it, all of which humanized God and deified man, exactly like the general ideologies of his beloved predecessor. But you are right in that most subsequent "prophets, seers and revelators" have seen better than to touch it - at least publicly.

 

[BigDaddy4]

My last post (#253), the one not answered except by irrelevant distraction tactics, illustrates why and how it is the work of the devil.

Your post #253 asks no questions to be answered. However, it was addressed by drsteve and others going forward.

 

[MormonFriend]

it is a very valid question, an lds member said God requires 100% obedience, so you would have to be a hundred percent every day from now to your death to make the celestial kingdom, you have no chance.

I have nearly worn out a key board explaining that obedience is somthing we are learning here, as the purpose of life. We all have differing circumstances and obstacles, but never more than we are able, according to scripture. Enduring those trials to the end and never giving up is what God requires, not being 100 % successful everyday. His Grace is applied to our daily failures by repentance. It is an uphill struggle, but no defined angle of incline is given. But our conscience will tell us if we are coasting.

 

[drstevej]

I have nearly worn out a key board explaining that obedience is somthing we are learning here, as the purpose of life. We all have differing circumstances and obstacles, but never more than we are able, according to scripture. Enduring those trials to the end and never giving up is what God requires, not being 100 % successful everyday. His Grace is applied to our daily failures by repentance. It is an uphill struggle, but no defined angle of incline is given. But our conscience will tell us if we are coasting.

That makes Salvation a merit badge.

 

[MormonFriend]

Your post #253 asks no questions to be answered. However, it was addressed by drsteve and others going forward.

The best that Steve illustrated in his response is if he (JS) can do it, so can we. Do you endorse that as a valid response?

 

[MormonFriend]

That makes Salvation a merit badge.

No argument there. But two observations come to mind. 1. What we merit is only using what God gave us originally to its greatest potential, which cannot happen if we hold fast to pride. The very essence of learning to keep His commandments is what extracts our pride as a Refiner's Fire, if we endure the heat to the end. And since we were given the necessary tools to do it with, we have no claim of self accomplishment. We could not do it without His precious Grace! The bottom line is, the only thing we do on our own is submit our will to God's.

2. The "merit badge" only indicates that we leaned to love God with all of our hearts, might, mind, and strength. That could never have happened if He did not love us first by sending His Son, and if we did not submit our entire will to His. And this is the ultimate promise if we "merit" love!
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The best that Steve illustrated in his response is if he (JS) can do it, so can we. Do you endorse that as a valid response?

I agree with Steve's post, but not with your mischaracterization of it above.

 

[peebly63]

I have nearly worn out a key board explaining that obedience is somthing we are learning here, as the purpose of life. We all have differing circumstances and obstacles, but never more than we are able, according to scripture. Enduring those trials to the end and never giving up is what God requires, not being 100 % successful everyday. His Grace is applied to our daily failures by repentance. It is an uphill struggle, but no defined angle of incline is given. But our conscience will tell us if we are coasting.

well that changed as either you or the way said it would have to be 100%, frankly if you are going by scripture your performance would have to be 100% everyday if you were relying on your own works and that is simply not possible for man, all fall short, we need a Saviour,We need Jesus the only one who could fulfill what was required to remove what separated us from God.

His Grace is applied regardless of our repentance, you actually think you can win favour with God by being good, when all our best is like filthy rags.

How can you have the peace that Jesus left us and "fear not" when you will never know by works if you have done enough to be saved, if the moment he returns you do something wrong and zap you are back off the nice list and back on the naughty list.

As I said before it seems to show that lds do believe that the blood of Jesus just accounts for the sins of adam and your personal sins are paid for by the individual works.

Jesus has been reduced to opening a crack in the door.

 

[drstevej]

I agree with Steve's post, but not with your mischaracterization of it above.

"after all we can do" includes mischaracterizing posts ?????

 

[drstevej]

2. The "merit badge" only indicates that we leaned to love God with all of our hearts, might, mind, and strength. That could never have happened if He did not love us first by sending His Son, and if we did not submit our entire will to His. And this is the ultimate promise if we "merit" love!

There is that word again. Have YOU done this? Not just on one day, but EVERY day?

Do you deserve the Merit Badge? Did Joseph when he returned gunfire?

 

[peebly63]

There is that word again. Have YOU done this? Not just on one day, but EVERY day?

Do you deserve the Merit Badge? Did Joseph when he returned gunfire?

they proudly display the guns he used amazing.

 

[MormonFriend]

Originally Posted by MormonFriend
2. The "merit badge" only indicates that we leaned to love God with all of our hearts, might, mind, and strength. That could never have happened if He did not love us first by sending His Son, and if we did not submit our entire will to His. And this is the ultimate promise if we "merit" love!

There is that word again. Have YOU done this? Not just on one day, but EVERY day? ...

The essence of this truth does not revolve around me. To redirect the concept of what I wrote back to me and my personal weaknesses as evidence to discredit the truth is a deception tactic to take the focus off of the the well documented requirements God has proclaimed.

And you misrepresent my point in your false challenge at that! You try to suggest that I have not accomplished the goal as evidence that we cannot be successful in our efforts. We cannot accomplish this until we have learned how to do so, and my whole post revolves around this fact, that we are hear to learn how! We must give 100% to the learning process, and that is a learning process in itself. I am in the learning process as all are.

The other fallacy in your challenge is the assumption that you have the ability to judge another's progress or spiritual accomplishments. Jesus Himself stood before thousands as a perfect person. Was His perfection some big flashing neon sign saying "Perfect Person!" Only a very few perceived His perfection. And He never declared His own perfection, by which we can conclude that a person who gets closer to perfection will not do so.

The term itself, "perfection", is a hidden truth because we are imperfect, so how can we understand perfectly what perfection is? We cannot! That is why we walk by FAITH in this and so many other "hidden" truths that are only revealed to us, as Isaiah taught, line upon line and precept upon precept. Here a little and there a little. We receive a little understanding by the Spirit as we overcome a little of the world.

When I refer to perfection, it points to our capacity and pursuit to overcome the world.
John 5: 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

If and when a person does overcome the world, that does not mean that he no longer falls short. He is with sin, as during the process of overcoming we are laden with sins. As we face our Judge, we may have overcome the world, but until He removes them the stains are still there! We still fall short and will be very aware of those stains. We will plead with humility for His mercy, because we will know what He did for us so that we can be cleansed, and there is no other way. We will know that we cannot come to the Father unclean.

The doctrine of "Grace Alone" is a different path that sidesteps the very process that teaches us to love God by overcoming the world. It deters the conversion process, as I outlined in post #253. Can we return to God if we do not love Him?
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Can we return to God if we are not converted?
Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is why Spencer W. Kimball declared that the concept of Grace alone is of the devil. It does not demean or diminish the full concept of Grace. It dismisses the man made concept that we do not have to do everything we can (aka: overcome the world) to merit His Grace. Such merit is not a form of payment, as I explained earlier.

 

[peebly63]

The essence of this truth does not revolve around me. To redirect the concept of what I wrote back to me and my personal weaknesses as evidence to discredit the truth is a deception tactic to take the focus off of the the well documented requirements God has proclaimed.

And you misrepresent my point in your false challenge at that! You try to suggest that I have not accomplished the goal as evidence that we cannot be successful in our efforts. We cannot accomplish this until we have learned how to do so, and my whole post revolves around this fact, that we are hear to learn how! We must give 100% to the learning process, and that is a learning process in itself. I am in the learning process as all are.

The other fallacy in your challenge is the assumption that you have the ability to judge another's progress or spiritual accomplishments. Jesus Himself stood before thousands as a perfect person. Was His perfection some big flashing neon sign saying "Perfect Person!" Only a very few perceived His perfection. And He never declared His own perfection, by which we can conclude that a person who gets closer to perfection will not do so.

The term itself, "perfection", is a hidden truth because we are imperfect, so how can we understand perfectly what perfection is? We cannot! That is why we walk by FAITH in this and so many other "hidden" truths that are only revealed to us, as Isaiah taught, line upon line and precept upon precept. Here a little and there a little. We receive a little understanding by the Spirit as we overcome a little of the world.

When I refer to perfection, it points to our capacity and pursuit to overcome the world.
John 5: 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

If and when a person does overcome the world, that does not mean that he no longer falls short. He is with sin, as during the process of overcoming we are laden with sins. As we face our Judge, we may have overcome the world, but until He removes them the stains are still there! We still fall short and will be very aware of those stains. We will plead with humility for His mercy, because we will know what He did for us so that we can be cleansed, and there is no other way. We will know that we cannot come to the Father unclean.

The doctrine of "Grace Alone" is a different path that sidesteps the very process that teaches us to love God by overcoming the world. It deters the conversion process, as I outlined in post #253. Can we return to God if we do not love Him?
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Can we return to God if we are not converted?
Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is why Spencer W. Kimball declared that the concept of Grace alone is of the devil. It does not demean or diminish the full concept of Grace. It dismisses the man made concept that we do not have to do everything we can (aka: overcome the world) to merit His Grace. Such merit is not a form of payment, as I explained earlier.

yes it actually does because the second you add anything to Grace it is no longer Grace, it is not undeserved.

attributing Grace to the work of the devil does diminish the covenant of Grace , you could actually argue he is committing the unpardonable sin by claiming something clearly of God is attributed to the devil.

you keep quoting come as little children, are you trying to say we can go back in time and become children, or shrink some how or regress mentally, I doubt it, so clearly it is not something we can actually "do" but we can accept just as a child accepts what its parent says.

 

[MormonFriend]

well that changed as either you or the way said it would have to be 100%, frankly if you are going by scripture your performance would have to be 100% everyday if you were relying on your own works and that is simply not possible for man, all fall short, we need a Saviour,We need Jesus the only one who could fulfill what was required to remove what separated us from God.

Matthew 11:29
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

What is a yoke?

His Grace is applied regardless of our repentance,

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

you actually think you can win favour with God by being good, when all our best is like filthy rags.

Hebrews 13:16
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.


1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.

Yes, it appears God looks beyond the fitly rags and sees our potential. That scripture of filthy rags has to be one of the most mal-quoted applications ever! Right after that declaration, Isaiah recorded: 64 8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Did God create the filthiness? Or can we allow ourselves to be malleable clay so He can transform us to be clean? It is the gospel principles that Jesus taught that shape us. If we are rebellious, if we hold fast to our pride and do not submit our will to God, we are not malleable. We remain filthy!

How can you have the peace that Jesus left us and "fear not" when you will never know by works if you have done enough to be saved, if the moment he returns you do something wrong and zap you are back off the nice list and back on the naughty list. ...

I do not look at works as a quota, by which salvation is earned. I look at works as a spiritual exercise by which we learn to put the flesh to death and strengthen the spirit. When we become spiritually minded, as described in Romans 8, we will understand the peace that Jesus left us. If this conversion is growing, there will be no need to worry about when Jesus comes again.
Jesus is not looking for our works per se, but if we endure to the end is the requirement for salvation.
2 Timothy 4: 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

As I said before it seems to show that lds do believe that the blood of Jesus just accounts for the sins of adam and your personal sins are paid for by the individual works.

Jesus has been reduced to opening a crack in the door.

It seems that way when you take individual doctrines and beliefs from our big picture puzzle, and try to fit them into the scheme of your big picture puzzle. Look at how they fit in our big picture, and you will see how all the pieces fit, and you don't have to omit other scriptures like you do with "All things are possible to those who believe." But it does take time and effort to put the pieces together, line upon line and precept upon precept. There must be the milk and meat concept, knowing that patience and faith is required to see the big picture. As we change through learning obedience, so does our perception and understanding.

We do not always see things the way they really are, but we always see things the way they WE really are. The more we become Christlike, the more we see all things as they really are, even unto the fullness. That means as we repent, we become more Christlike.