The Millennial Temple

[Terral]

Dear Brother Jerry:

I was reading your statements to NoTrash and believe you are a little bit off-base here.

Jerry >> What you are involved in at this juncture is allegorizing the Biblical text, it is an activity where a person brings concepts into the text which were not intended by the author. I'll play along for an instant.

The first mistake is in limiting the true ‘context’ of any Bible passage to that of the human ‘author’ penning the words. Every syllable of God’s Living Word is inspired by God (2Tim. 3:16-17) using that human vessel to reveal “His” will, intentions and even His Hidden Wisdom (1Cor. 2:6-8). To demonstrate the essence of this vital truth, we only need to consider the Greek definition of the term ‘mystery’ (musterion):

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1884#1

musterion primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Php_4:12, mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, NOT the mysterious (as with the English word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known ONLY by Divine Revelation, and is made known in a manner and at A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY who are ‘illumined’ by HIS SPIRIT. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth REVEALED. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The definition given above may be best illustrated by the following passage: "the MYSTERY which hath been HID from ALL AGES and GENERATIONS: but NOW hath it been MANIFESTED to His saints" (Col_1:26, RV). "It is used of . . .”

This definition encompasses the two aspects of God’s timing for ‘Paul’ to reveal these things in his Epistles AND His appointed time for ‘each individual member’ of Christ’s body to come to an understanding of these things. If God’s Hidden Wisdom can ‘only’ be understood by ‘Divine Revelation,’ then some members will see those things far in advance of others; even though everyone is exposed to the same ‘words’ from the human author. Since a ‘musterion’ implies ‘knowledge withheld’ and ‘truth revealed,’ then the suppositions of your statement above must be false. Who among the human Bible authors had the opportunity to see all 66 books compiled together and assembled the way we have them today? None of them! Your Bible is ‘two testaments,’ but mine is ‘three witnesses’ of spirit (OT), water (Kingdom NT) and blood (Pauline Epistles) and the three are into the one (1Jn 5:8) like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The next most important consideration is that God’s Word is living AND active (Heb. 4:12), which also tosses your premise right out the window. Has your Bible become a Living and Active ‘tree of life’ bubbling forth a fountain of Spiritual Essence giving life to every Word coming from the mouth of God?

Every member to this fine Board stands upon a wide landscape representing a broad spectrum of individuals standing either far away or very near ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word. From the greatest among us to the very least, everyone here has something to learn from all the other members of the ‘one body’ that is “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) coming to maturity (Eph. 4:11-13) under Him as the Head of our Church (Eph. 1:22, Col. 1:18). Therefore, I can very well see ‘concepts’ in Paul’s ‘mystery’ writings that have not even entered the imaginations of my brothers and sisters in Christ on the other end of the spectrum. You can very easily be found a transgressor against ‘the truth’ of God’s Word, by characterizing my statements as “concepts not intended by the author,” when The Author had exactly my context in His Mind from ‘before the world was’ (Jn 17:5). Therefore, while I disagree with most everything out of Notrash’s mouth today, we must allow room in our theologies for God to instruct us in some kind of way through his methods. That does not mean to validate or justify things making no sense today, but means to give God every opportunity to lead us into the ‘breadth and length and height and depth’ (Eph. 3:18); even if He uses the very least among us.

Jerry >> To follow your analysis with these two type of Jews they also could then represent subatomic particles neutrons and protons, and then the gentiles can represent neutrons, because of their atomic mass being less than the other two thusly God might be talking about the sustainability of nuclear fusion in these statements regarding the two Jews.

How about if the Gentiles represent ‘spirit witnesses’ and the Jews represent ‘water witnesses’ taken out of the side of Abraham like Eve (water witness) was taken from the side of Adam? Gentiles preexisted the Jews like Adam came before Eve and ‘her seed’ (blood witness). That is how Melchizedek made intercession for Gentiles before God LONG before any such thing as a “Jew” walked this earth.

These are my diagrams of the three mysteries revealed simultaneously by Paul in his Third Chapter To the Ephesians. The mystery that Paul referred to in brief (Eph. 3:3) was “The Mystery Of His Will” mentioned back in Ephesians 1:9+10 demonstrated in Figure 1. God’s mystery is Christ (Col. 2:2), which represents everything in Figure 1 being summed up “IN” Christ Jesus or the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) into the One (Christ Jesus =F+S+HS). That is how we became seated ‘with Christ’ in the heavenly places that are “IN Christ Jesus.” Eph. 2:6. Jesus Christ walking around in the flesh on the earth is the ‘incarnation’ of Christ Jesus, which is what makes Him the “Son of Man,” or THAT Heavenly Man (1Tim. 2:5). You have a spirit, body (water witness) and soul (blood witness) and Christ Jesus has the very same thing in the Father (spirit witness = His spirit), Son (blood witness = His soul) and Holy Spirit (water witness = His body). However, The “mystery of Christ” is represented by the right hand one third of Figure 1, which is what Figure 2 demonstrates. This is what Paul calls the “Administration of the Mystery” (Eph. 3:9) or New Jerusalem “from above” (Gal. 4:26 = our mother).

New Jerusalem is called our ‘mother’ (water witness), because this is again the right hand one third (water witness) of the larger “Mystery of His Will.” Figure 2 has component parts NEVER even mentioned in Scripture, because God teaches us many things in the ‘types’ and their ‘antitypes.’ You have a ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12 = that’s us) and a ‘body of Moses’ (Jude 1:9) where members are baptized also into his body (1Cor. 10:1-4). Okay, so where is the ‘body of Elijah’ for the third representative at the Mount Of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-8)?? That ‘body of Elijah’ represents ‘the angels’ and those never seeing death like Elijah did not see death in the OT. While God’s Mystery includes the summing up of ‘all things’ in Figure 1, the Mystery of Christ is limited to the things in the heavens (spirit witness of creation) and on the earth (water witness of creation). Our “Body of Christ” church stands “IN” the Lamb in the ‘center of the throne’ (Rev. 7:17) to judge the world (men = water witnesses) and the angels (spirit witnesses), as Paul teaches in 1Cor. 6:2+3. Now, you can sit there and proclaim to everyone that I have entered a ‘context’ (body of Elijah) to these verses never intended by Paul. However, the Author of the Text has been tapping me on the shoulder to reveal ‘these things’ (2Peter 3:14-16) about His Hidden Wisdom (1Cor. 2:6-8) for the better part of the past thirty years. Does God’s Truth and His Will become ‘the truth,’ when He decides to begin tapping you on the shoulder? No! Every member of Christ’s body is working under a specific mode of development on God’s time line of revelation. Therefore, you and I are no more qualified to pass judgment on Notrash’s formulas and methods, than he is qualified to judge the other members of Christ’s body.

The final diagram shows the simplicity of the Gentiles (spirit witnesses) and Jews (water witnesses) being summed up into the same “one body” of Christ (blood witness). Paul is comparing the larger “Mystery of His Will” (Fig. 1) AND the “mystery of Christ” (of heaven and earth = Fig. 2) to the much smaller mystery of Jews and Gentiles being summed up into the ‘one body’ on this earth through obedience to our gospel. In each case one spirit witness and one water witness is summed up “IN” the only begotten ‘blood witness,’ so those two groups become ‘one.’ Does Paul ever even mention spirit witnesses and such? No! That was given by John in 1John 5:6-8, which was not even written by the time Paul was killed. God is the Master at hiding His Hidden Wisdom in plain sight and for using many human authors to reveal His intentions for the sons of God in the world today.

Jerry >> When you dip into allegory you can make a text say anything that your imagination can come up with. Better to stick with the meaning intended by the original author instead of importing meaning from some third party who just might not be as smart as you are in regards to what the meaning of any Biblical text means.

No sir. I might disagree with the ‘proton/neutron’ characterizations, but those things remain in the back of my mind in case God decides to cause the growth (1Cor. 3:6+7). Our authority comes FROM GOD through HIS WORD and not from those trying to put Him in a box. You are leaving the door open for false interpretations from the dogma of men to supersede what Paul describes as the “revelation of the mystery” (Rom. 16:25). We are to compare everything to Scripture for finding out who is approved before men (1Cor. 11:19) and God (2Tim. 2:15).

BTW, the Millennial Temple (Eze. 40+) will be restored by Elijah (Matt. 17:10-11) as the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:19-26 coming to restore all things. That restored Temple contains the “Holy Place” (Matt. 24:15) where the antichrist will set up his “abomination of desolation” (Dan. 11:31, 12:11-13) very near the end of the age. You and I are living in the time just before the 1000 Years (2Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord” (2Peter 3:10, 1Thes. 5:1+2) ‘COMES’ (2Thes. 2:2) or begins.

In Christ Jesus in God (center of Fig.1),

Terral

 

[Notrash]

Joseph did have a dream regarding 7 cows it is there in Gen 41, yet we are told what this vision means;

Actually the dream was Pharoahs, but Joseph interpreted it.

"The dreams of Pharaoh are one; God has revealed to Pharaoh what he is about to do. 26The seven good cows are seven years, and the seven good ears are seven years; the dreams are one. 27The seven lean and ugly cows that came up after them are seven years, and the seven empty ears blighted by the east wind are also seven years of famine. 28It is as I told Pharaoh; God has shown to Pharaoh what he is about to do. 29There will come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt, 30but after them there will arise seven years of famine, and all the plenty will be forgotten in the land of Egypt.

So these two visions are given a literal meaning they mean something.

Let's look at Ez's vision;

And behold, there was a wall all around the outside of the temple area, and the length of the measuring reed in the man's hand was six long cubits, each being a cubit and a handbreadth
So if you were to suggest that this is not referring to a literal wall, to what then does it refer?
If it was not arround the temple area where was it and what does this refer to?
If it wasn't a measurieng reed what was it?
If it wasn't a man's hand what was it?
If the reed was not 6 cubits long how long was it?
So he measured the thickness of the wall, one reed; and the height, one reed.
So if he didn't measure it what did he do?
If it wasn't a wall what was it?
If it did not have a thickness to what was EZ referring?
If it did not have a height to what was EZ refering?

Are you implying that any vision that is not given it's literal interpretation in the text is to be applied literally?

It is clear that EZ saw a man measuring a temple structure in his VISION or DREAM. To say that EZ was taken away to this place literaly and saw a physical temple being measure, I don't see evident in the text. I don't think EZ left the canal banks or anyplace he was during any of his visions. Just as easily as the wheel within a wheel and the 7 fat/lean cows were not physical objects, but were created by God in Pharoahs and EZ's mind so also the temple of EZ 40-48. I don't think he was transported to another place as Philip was when ministering to the Ethiopian eunuch.

It is clear that there were many measurings in the Vision. So much so, that the theme of the Vision could be the measuring of the temple rather than the temple itself. But I think that any attempt to give answer to those figures will be countered with more of the same literal emphasis. As Hedgehog mentions, "I just think that many times God wrote things out in a way that has double meanings because it's an easy way to tell the saved from the unsaved. Its an easy way to tell whats in mans heart.

Clearly Ez had something in his mind he was seeking to express, yet you are unwilling to accept the substance of what he presented. Don't forget the first temple, the one Solomon built had been destroyed, sure Ez saw a vision, it was a vision of the temple yet to come. The very description indicates that he expected his readers to understand that. He gives the details to the very smallest detail to indicate the reality of the coming temple.

I think that if EZ did show the temple pattern and it's measurements to the Israelites, that there would have been certain things in it's design that would have created a repentence in some of the people. Perhaps they considered the size of the temple (emphasis on the measureings) being described and knew that they would never have the committment to build it. This would be similar to how Jesus dealt with the Rich Young ruler who claimed to have kept all the commandments. Jesus exposed that his love for money was greater than His love for God. Thus viewing the temple would have exposed in some of them the conviction that they were perhaps self-righteous just as Job learned when God asked him where he was when He laid the foundations of the world. They possibly were guilty of believing that since they were chosen and blessed and given the temple to minister His types, that it was all that was neccessary for salvation. Some people consider them the chosen and blessed to this Day even though there are no geneological records left to show who "they" are.

In this part below, it's obvious that Israel has had different laws, statutes, plans and principles than Gods does. Some of the symbolism of the temple is evident through vs 8. We aren't told what the threshold means, but whatever principle it means, Israel has a different standard than god. He says that they have defiled His name. In this new plan, God will not allow that. (and neither did he allow it then) He alone will be the Lord.

EZ 43:

6 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man (Moses?)stood beside me. 7 And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places. 8 When they set their threshold by My threshold, and their doorpost by My doorpost, with a wall between them and Me, they defiled My holy name by the abominations which they committed; therefore I have consumed them in My anger. 9 Now let them put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from Me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.
10"Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. 11 And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms and all its laws. Write it down in their sight, so that they may keep its whole design and all its ordinances, and perform them. 12 This is the law of the temple: The whole area surrounding the mountaintop is most holy. Behold, this is the law of the temple.

In addition, you didn't consider the impact of these verses below on your ideas of a future literal temple.

EZ 12:21 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 22
"Son of man, what is this proverb that you people have about the land of Israel, which says, 'The days are prolonged, and every vision fails'? 23
Tell them therefore, 'Thus says the Lord God: "I will lay this proverb to rest, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel." But say to them, "The days are at hand, and the fulfillment of every vision. 24
For no more shall there be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. 25
For I am the Lord. I speak, and the word which I speak will come to pass; it will no more be postponed; for in your days, O rebellious house, I will say the word and perform it," says the Lord God.'"
26
Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 27
"Son of man, look, the house of Israel is saying, 'The vision that he sees is for many days from now, and he prophesies of times far off.' 28
Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "None of My words will be postponed any more, but the word which I speak will be done," says the Lord God.'

Sadly I think you want to believe there will be no temple. I think you have convinced youtrself that these chapeters do not refer to that temple. We could go through all the verses in chapters 40-48 to see that a literal temple is in view. He even goes so far as to establish the inheritance of the sons of Israel in this restored order.

There is just too much detail to wish away here, Israel has a future and this group of chapters establish that future, you can argue with that fact yet it is still true. YHWH made some eternal promices to Abraham which still need to be fulfilled, He will do so in the context of Ez 40-48.

Could you list those 'eternal promises' to Abraham?

You are aware that both Israel and Judah where given a writ of divorce by God aren't you?

Jer. 3:8,
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8 And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.[/FONT]

Very basically, I'll offer that my view is that the prophets and the nations/tribes of Israel were established to point towards and confirm Christ and His fulfilled mission of the atoning sacrifice of Christ/God. Abraham/Isaac/ Jacob-Israel, David, etc. carried the seed of faith from Adam Eve physically and spiritually (trusting God for Salvation) that was fulfilled in Christ. Thus the purpose of Israel/Judah in confirming the Messiah and in maintaining the types, shadows, figures anti-types for the world to see has been replaced with the reality of Christ.

When it offers promises to Abraham, is the promiser refering to a physically recieved promise or a spiritually recieved promise?. Since the death and resurrection, Israelites and Judahites who repent and believe in Christ as God and in His Salvation and Rule can be grafted back into their original vine/olive tree which is now Christ.

I don't have all the answers that your looking for. I won't pretend that I have every answer. But I believe there are plenty of reasons to doubt and disagree with the ideas of a restored Isreal or restored Judah as Nations/govornments, especially if that nation or govornment is not based on the Risen Reedeemer. In fact, the nation that is now called Israel is actually composed of or ruled by Judahites.(those who've adopted judaism and the judaic-scepter/ruler ideology) How anti-truth, anti-christ is that reality?
NT.

 

[Jerrysch]

Dear Brother Jerry:

I was reading your statements to NoTrash and believe you are a little bit off-base here.



The first mistake is in limiting the true ‘context’ of any Bible passage to that of the human ‘author’ penning the words. Every syllable of God’s Living Word is inspired by God (2Tim. 3:16-17) using that human vessel to reveal “His” will, intentions and even His Hidden Wisdom (1Cor. 2:6-8). To demonstrate the essence of this vital truth, we only need to consider the Greek definition of the term ‘mystery’ (musterion):

http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1884#1



This definition encompasses the two aspects of God’s timing for ‘Paul’ to reveal these things in his Epistles AND His appointed time for ‘each individual member’ of Christ’s body to come to an understanding of these things. If God’s Hidden Wisdom can ‘only’ be understood by ‘Divine Revelation,’ then some members will see those things far in advance of others; even though everyone is exposed to the same ‘words’ from the human author. Since a ‘musterion’ implies ‘knowledge withheld’ and ‘truth revealed,’ then the suppositions of your statement above must be false. Who among the human Bible authors had the opportunity to see all 66 books compiled together and assembled the way we have them today? None of them! Your Bible is ‘two testaments,’ but mine is ‘three witnesses’ of spirit (OT), water (Kingdom NT) and blood (Pauline Epistles) and the three are into the one (1Jn 5:8) like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The next most important consideration is that God’s Word is living AND active (Heb. 4:12), which also tosses your premise right out the window. Has your Bible become a Living and Active ‘tree of life’ bubbling forth a fountain of Spiritual Essence giving life to every Word coming from the mouth of God?

Every member to this fine Board stands upon a wide landscape representing a broad spectrum of individuals standing either far away or very near ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word. From the greatest among us to the very least, everyone here has something to learn from all the other members of the ‘one body’ that is “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) coming to maturity (Eph. 4:11-13) under Him as the Head of our Church (Eph. 1:22, Col. 1:18). Therefore, I can very well see ‘concepts’ in Paul’s ‘mystery’ writings that have not even entered the imaginations of my brothers and sisters in Christ on the other end of the spectrum. You can very easily be found a transgressor against ‘the truth’ of God’s Word, by characterizing my statements as “concepts not intended by the author,” when The Author had exactly my context in His Mind from ‘before the world was’ (Jn 17:5). Therefore, while I disagree with most everything out of Notrash’s mouth today, we must allow room in our theologies for God to instruct us in some kind of way through his methods. That does not mean to validate or justify things making no sense today, but means to give God every opportunity to lead us into the ‘breadth and length and height and depth’ (Eph. 3:18); even if He uses the very least among us.



How about if the Gentiles represent ‘spirit witnesses’ and the Jews represent ‘water witnesses’ taken out of the side of Abraham like Eve (water witness) was taken from the side of Adam? Gentiles preexisted the Jews like Adam came before Eve and ‘her seed’ (blood witness). That is how Melchizedek made intercession for Gentiles before God LONG before any such thing as a “Jew” walked this earth.

These are my diagrams of the three mysteries revealed simultaneously by Paul in his Third Chapter To the Ephesians. The mystery that Paul referred to in brief (Eph. 3:3) was “The Mystery Of His Will” mentioned back in Ephesians 1:9+10 demonstrated in Figure 1. God’s mystery is Christ (Col. 2:2), which represents everything in Figure 1 being summed up “IN” Christ Jesus or the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) into the One (Christ Jesus =F+S+HS). That is how we became seated ‘with Christ’ in the heavenly places that are “IN Christ Jesus.” Eph. 2:6. Jesus Christ walking around in the flesh on the earth is the ‘incarnation’ of Christ Jesus, which is what makes Him the “Son of Man,” or THAT Heavenly Man (1Tim. 2:5). You have a spirit, body (water witness) and soul (blood witness) and Christ Jesus has the very same thing in the Father (spirit witness = His spirit), Son (blood witness = His soul) and Holy Spirit (water witness = His body). However, The “mystery of Christ” is represented by the right hand one third of Figure 1, which is what Figure 2 demonstrates. This is what Paul calls the “Administration of the Mystery” (Eph. 3:9) or New Jerusalem “from above” (Gal. 4:26 = our mother).

New Jerusalem is called our ‘mother’ (water witness), because this is again the right hand one third (water witness) of the larger “Mystery of His Will.” Figure 2 has component parts NEVER even mentioned in Scripture, because God teaches us many things in the ‘types’ and their ‘antitypes.’ You have a ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12 = that’s us) and a ‘body of Moses’ (Jude 1:9) where members are baptized also into his body (1Cor. 10:1-4). Okay, so where is the ‘body of Elijah’ for the third representative at the Mount Of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-8)?? That ‘body of Elijah’ represents ‘the angels’ and those never seeing death like Elijah did not see death in the OT. While God’s Mystery includes the summing up of ‘all things’ in Figure 1, the Mystery of Christ is limited to the things in the heavens (spirit witness of creation) and on the earth (water witness of creation). Our “Body of Christ” church stands “IN” the Lamb in the ‘center of the throne’ (Rev. 7:17) to judge the world (men = water witnesses) and the angels (spirit witnesses), as Paul teaches in 1Cor. 6:2+3. Now, you can sit there and proclaim to everyone that I have entered a ‘context’ (body of Elijah) to these verses never intended by Paul. However, the Author of the Text has been tapping me on the shoulder to reveal ‘these things’ (2Peter 3:14-16) about His Hidden Wisdom (1Cor. 2:6-8) for the better part of the past thirty years. Does God’s Truth and His Will become ‘the truth,’ when He decides to begin tapping you on the shoulder? No! Every member of Christ’s body is working under a specific mode of development on God’s time line of revelation. Therefore, you and I are no more qualified to pass judgment on Notrash’s formulas and methods, than he is qualified to judge the other members of Christ’s body.

The final diagram shows the simplicity of the Gentiles (spirit witnesses) and Jews (water witnesses) being summed up into the same “one body” of Christ (blood witness). Paul is comparing the larger “Mystery of His Will” (Fig. 1) AND the “mystery of Christ” (of heaven and earth = Fig. 2) to the much smaller mystery of Jews and Gentiles being summed up into the ‘one body’ on this earth through obedience to our gospel. In each case one spirit witness and one water witness is summed up “IN” the only begotten ‘blood witness,’ so those two groups become ‘one.’ Does Paul ever even mention spirit witnesses and such? No! That was given by John in 1John 5:6-8, which was not even written by the time Paul was killed. God is the Master at hiding His Hidden Wisdom in plain sight and for using many human authors to reveal His intentions for the sons of God in the world today.

No sir. I might disagree with the ‘proton/neutron’ characterizations, but those things remain in the back of my mind in case God decides to cause the growth (1Cor. 3:6+7). Our authority comes FROM GOD through HIS WORD and not from those trying to put Him in a box. You are leaving the door open for false interpretations from the dogma of men to supersede what Paul describes as the “revelation of the mystery” (Rom. 16:25). We are to compare everything to Scripture for finding out who is approved before men (1Cor. 11:19) and God (2Tim. 2:15).

BTW, the Millennial Temple (Eze. 40+) will be restored by Elijah (Matt. 17:10-11) as the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:19-26 coming to restore all things. That restored Temple contains the “Holy Place” (Matt. 24:15) where the antichrist will set up his “abomination of desolation” (Dan. 11:31, 12:11-13) very near the end of the age. You and I are living in the time just before the 1000 Years (2Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord” (2Peter 3:10, 1Thes. 5:1+2) ‘COMES’ (2Thes. 2:2) or begins.

In Christ Jesus in God (center of Fig.1),

Terral

You know I do appreciate your post but i really don't see its bearking upon the topic of this thread. We are actually speaking of the temple as described in Ez 40-48, now I would like to hear your ideas regarding the mesning of these chapters of EZ. the rest of what you posted should be made into a different thread so that all who are interested in the topic can pick it up without wading through all of this regarding Ez. 40-48, so.... what is the meaning of these 8 chapters do they refer to a literal temple or what?

 

[Terral]

Hi Jerry:

Jerry >> You know I do appreciate your post but I really don't see its bearing upon the topic of this thread.

My statements in Post #81 are based around your statements to Notrash in Post #71 atop Page 8. . .

Jerry >> What you are involved in at this juncture is allegorizing the Biblical text, it is an activity where a person brings concepts into the text which were not intended by the author. I'll play along for an instant . . . .

I also was playing along for an instant. :0)

Jerry >> We are actually speaking of the temple as described in Ez 40-48, now I would like to hear your ideas regarding the meanings of these chapters of EZ. the rest of what you posted should be made into a different thread so that all who are interested in the topic can pick it up without wading through all of this regarding Ez. 40-48

We agree. My apologies for my part in sidetracking your discussion. As stated in Post # 81, Ezekiel’s Third Temple will be restored by Elijah coming to restore ‘all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:21-26). This is the same Temple already restored when the antichrist appears in Matthew 24:15, some three and a half years before Christ returns (Matt. 24:30-31) very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+, Dan. 12:11-13). Ezekiel’s Temple will be used by David throughout the entire 1000 year “Day of the Lord,” prophesied by Ezekiel. Everyone should remember always that “Jesus is Lord!” :0)

"Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd. And I, the Lord (Jesus Christ speaking), will be their God (Hebrews 1:8), and My servant David will be prince among them; I the Lord have spoken. I will make a covenant of peace (Hebrews 8:8) with them and eliminate harmful beasts from the land so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods.” Ezekiel 34:23-25.

David himself is the ‘prince’ raised up for Israel described here in Ezekiel and the Messiah ‘cut off’ in Daniel 9:26. Jeremiah sees the same thing prophesied here:

'But they shall serve the Lord their God (Jesus is Lord) and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.” Jeremiah 30:9.

The common error is to transform this ‘earthly Messiah’ into Jesus Christ, when Ezekiel prophesies further and makes that very much impossible. You already read that the Lord will raise up “David himself” to be their shepherd and ‘prince.’ What does Scripture say that disqualifies Jesus Christ from being that prince in the very verses you are considering from Ezekiel?

"On that day the prince (Eze. 34:23-25 above = David himself) shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.” Ezekiel 45:22.

What need does Jesus Christ have of any continual sin offering? Who among you will try to prove this ‘prince’ is our Lord Jesus Christ? Even New Testament prophesy says the coming Kingdom is of our father David!

“Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David; Hosanna in the highest!" Mark 11:10.

The Holy Spirit prophesies about returning to restore the ‘Tabernacle of David,’ saying,

“After these things [after ‘body of Christ’ is gathered] I will return, and I will rebuild the Tabernalce of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and will restore it, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.” Acts 15:16-18.

The ‘Tabernacle of David’ is not the Prophesied Third Temple we are talking about in your thread, as the Temple was still standing in 50 AD when this prophesy was made by James. The Tabernacle of David is a reference to the ‘triune’ nature of the ‘land of the garden’ and the ‘relationship’ between the earthly Messiah (David = Elijah = Adam) and the Heavenly Messiah (Our Lord Jesus Christ).

You are looking at a Timeline of Scripture divided into a series of ‘three witness’ mystery sets sandwiched between Adam’s reign as the earthly Messiah (Gen. 2:7 to his fall) and David being King Forever (Eze. 37:24-28) under “God’s Glory” (see legend in lower left-hand corner). Everything in your Bible between Adam’s fall and the ‘end of the age’ is laid out precisely according to all of the types of the Tabernacle Of Moses and the Temple. While the diagram might appear a bit complicated at the very beginning, the overview is understood by tracking the ‘earthly Messiah’ from the left to your right in a series of steps. Your Bible has an ‘earthly Messiah’ who is a ‘prophet, priest and king,’ according to the patterns established by Jesus Christ being the Heavenly “Prophet, Priest and King.” Jesus Christ is the “Lord God” of Genesis 2 who formed His “son of God” (Adam = Luke 3:38) from the dust of the ground, so he represented this entire universe in one ‘man from God’ (John 1:6). Jesus Christ is “The Lord” with His throne IN HEAVEN (Isa. 66:1), while David sits on a corresponding throne ON THIS EARTH as “His footstool.”

Jesus Christ is the Lord God who formed Adam and the Garden as “ONE” was created for the other. Adam is ‘one’ with the Land of the Garden and the father of every living soul in this universe. Jesus Christ became our “Eternal Father” (Isa. 9:6), or our ‘Grandfather,’ by forming our ‘earthly father’ (Adam) from the dust of the ground. The Lord God (Christ) made skins for Adam (Joshua, David, Ezekiel, John the Baptist) and for Eve (Noah and Moses). You are given a big clue in 2Kings 1:8 and Mark 1:6 that John the Baptist and Elijah are ‘skins’ for our father Adam. This is why when asked if he was Elijah, John the Baptist responded with a definite “No!” (John 1:21). Israel never woke up to the truth that John the Baptist was the ‘earthly Messiah’ and the ‘king’ of Matthew 11:8 who was “more than a prophet” (Matt. 11:9), as the “man from God” (John 1:6) through whom ALL were to ‘believe’ in the Light. John 1:4-9. The ‘earthly Messiah’ of the Kingdom of God ‘on earth AS IT IS in heaven’ (Matt. 6:10) was John the Baptist all along. :0) Christ told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world or even of this realm!

“Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world [Isa. 66:1 = Heaven is His throne]. If My kingdom (“His Heavenly Kingdom” = 2Tim. 4:18) were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." John 18:36.

The Lord God (Christ) formed A MAN and His “son of God” (Luke 3:38) to sit on an ‘earthly throne,’ but men wish to transform “David” (Eze. 34:23-24, 37:24-28) into our Lord Jesus Christ. David/Elijah is the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:19-26 coming to restore all things some 1000 years BEFORE Christ returns at the ‘end of the age.’ Ezekiel’s Third Temple will be restored by Elijah, as just one integral part of the ‘Tabernacle Of David,’ as the Holy Spirit in the Holy of Holies is the same ‘tree of life’ from the Garden of Eden. That is why David danced naked at the coming of the Ark into the city of David and with “all his might” (2Sam. 6:14), because he is pointing back to the ‘tree of life’ in the Garden when he was our father Adam. Reading the Psalms in this ‘context’ will enlighten souls to precisely what the diagram above works to teach. The antichrist comes to set up his “abomination of desolation” (Matt. 24:15) over our father Adam’s (David’s) dead body.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[pleasestudy]

Mercy. :O

 

[pleasestudy]

Who is 'Israel'. All this talk of 'Israel'.

Instead of trying to second guess prophecies by people who didn't even understand them themselves, why not see how much emphasis Jesus put on 'Israel' or a 'restored temple' or 'the Jews'? Or the entire New Testament for that matter?

Having studied under a few of the 'great Bible teachers' of our time, it occurs to me that, not only do they not all agree, but they disagree on key points. Especially when it comes to prophecy, most especially Ezekiel, Zechariah, Daniel and Revelation. Despite graphs, charts, and lexical aids.

As Christians, we are living under the New Covenant, not the Old. The old is obsolete, Hebrews assures us.

Many Christians are attempting to interpret Scripture they have no clue about. One thing for sure, there is no need for a third temple. Jesus made that clear when he told the Samaritan woman God could care less where He is worshipped physically.

If you bring in this 'third temple' doctrine, who are the priests? Not just anyone was allowed to serve as a priest. In fact, they were in grave danger if they did.

And who does Peter say is the kingdom of priests today?
Certainly not 'the Jews'. And who are the Israelites, if indeed it is them you see as robe-wearing, ephod-wearing priests?

All of this gets us into a maze of confusion and controversy and Paul warns us against such things.

Please...post here what Jesus had to say about a third temple.

Don't bother, he said nothing.

He did say the temple of his time would be torn down and what better time to add....but don't worry guys...you're gonna get a third one, plus your own land?


There are too many book writers and Daniel/Zechariah/Revelation expositors already.

How about let's just teach what Jesus taught and act like Jesus acted and walk like he walked?

Paul was talking about spiritual maturity when he talked about moving away from the basics. But things like genealogies...which are necessary when one is trying to prove genetic 'rights' or 'promises'...he said to avoid.

I'll wait for someone to post what Jesus said about a third temple. If he said nothing at all, I'm assuming that's because he didn't find it important or there won't be one that he/God ordains.

 

[Jerrysch]

Who is 'Israel'. All this talk of 'Israel'.

Instead of trying to second guess prophecies by people who didn't even understand them themselves, why not see how much emphasis Jesus put on 'Israel' or a 'restored temple' or 'the Jews'? Or the entire New Testament for that matter?

So are you suggesting that this part of Scripture is unimportant?

Emphasis? how about Acts1: 6So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.

Guess what? Whenever Jesus spokeof the kingdom of God/heaven He was not speaking of the church, He was speaking of the time when all the promices given to Israel by YHWH will be fulfilled, emphasis? I think you are misreading the gospels.

 

[Jerrysch]

Having studied under a few of the 'great Bible teachers' of our time, it occurs to me that, not only do they not all agree, but they disagree on key points. Especially when it comes to prophecy, most especially Ezekiel, Zechariah, Daniel and Revelation. Despite graphs, charts, and lexical aids.

So what do you make of Ez 40-43 what is it speaking of and why do you think so?

 

[Jerrysch]

As Christians, we are living under the New Covenant, not the Old. The old is obsolete, Hebrews assures us.

.

The "Old" being the Mosiac Covenant, yet that is not the only Covenant between YHWH and men, the Abrahamic Covenant is still very much in effect. There have been promices given by YHWH to ethnic Israel which have yet to be fulfilled, they all will be fulfilled in the Messianic Kingdom. All believers in Messiah will have a part to play in that kingdom.

 

[Jerrysch]

Many Christians are attempting to interpret Scripture they have no clue about. One thing for sure, there is no need for a third temple. Jesus made that clear when he told the Samaritan woman God could care less where He is worshipped physically.
.

Well there is indeed a need for it and that need is spelled out in the Book of Daniel in regards to the 70 sevens.

BTW the Temple as described in EZ 40-48 is in my opinion not the third one it will be the fourth!

 

[Jerrysch]

If you bring in this 'third temple' doctrine, who are the priests? Not just anyone was allowed to serve as a priest. In fact, they were in grave danger if they did.
.

They will be unregenerate Jews. Jews who do not believe in Messiah. This temple will not honor YHWH, yet the Jews living in Israel will build it anyway. One need only look on the net to see that Israel will indeed build it;

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/cornerstone.html

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0.../edition_id/186/format/html/displaystory.html

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/Events/20050620.htm

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/

 

[Jerrysch]

How about let's just teach what Jesus taught and act like Jesus acted and walk like he walked?

Paul was talking about spiritual maturity when he talked about moving away from the basics. But things like genealogies...which are necessary when one is trying to prove genetic 'rights' or 'promises'...he said to avoid.

I'll wait for someone to post what Jesus said about a third temple. If he said nothing at all, I'm assuming that's because he didn't find it important or there won't be one that he/God ordains.

So what did Messiah teach regarding the Kingdom of God/heaven and what did He mean by that phrase?

 

[pleasestudy]

Which Scripture would you like to deal with? He said a number of things about it.

 

[Jerrysch]

Which Scripture would you like to deal with? He said a number of things about it.

Let's look at the one I presented already;

Acts1: 6So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." 9And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

To what were the apostles referring?

 

[Jerrysch]

Hi Jerry:

My statements in Post #81 are based around your statements to Notrash in Post #71 atop Page 8. . .

I also was playing along for an instant. :0)

We agree. My apologies for my part in sidetracking your discussion. As stated in Post # 81, Ezekiel’s Third Temple will be restored by Elijah coming to restore ‘all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:21-26). This is the same Temple already restored when the antichrist appears in Matthew 24:15, some three and a half years before Christ returns (Matt. 24:30-31) very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+, Dan. 12:11-13). Ezekiel’s Temple will be used by David throughout the entire 1000 year “Day of the Lord,” prophesied by Ezekiel. Everyone should remember always that “Jesus is Lord!” :0)

David himself is the ‘prince’ raised up for Israel described here in Ezekiel and the Messiah ‘cut off’ in Daniel 9:26. Jeremiah sees the same thing prophesied here:

The common error is to transform this ‘earthly Messiah’ into Jesus Christ, when Ezekiel prophesies further and makes that very much impossible. You already read that the Lord will raise up “David himself” to be their shepherd and ‘prince.’ What does Scripture say that disqualifies Jesus Christ from being that prince in the very verses you are considering from Ezekiel?

What need does Jesus Christ have of any continual sin offering? Who among you will try to prove this ‘prince’ is our Lord Jesus Christ? Even New Testament prophesy says the coming Kingdom is of our father David!

The Holy Spirit prophesies about returning to restore the ‘Tabernacle of David,’ saying,

The ‘Tabernacle of David’ is not the Prophesied Third Temple we are talking about in your thread, as the Temple was still standing in 50 AD when this prophesy was made by James. The Tabernacle of David is a reference to the ‘triune’ nature of the ‘land of the garden’ and the ‘relationship’ between the earthly Messiah (David = Elijah = Adam) and the Heavenly Messiah (Our Lord Jesus Christ).

You are looking at a Timeline of Scripture divided into a series of ‘three witness’ mystery sets sandwiched between Adam’s reign as the earthly Messiah (Gen. 2:7 to his fall) and David being King Forever (Eze. 37:24-28) under “God’s Glory” (see legend in lower left-hand corner). Everything in your Bible between Adam’s fall and the ‘end of the age’ is laid out precisely according to all of the types of the Tabernacle Of Moses and the Temple. While the diagram might appear a bit complicated at the very beginning, the overview is understood by tracking the ‘earthly Messiah’ from the left to your right in a series of steps. Your Bible has an ‘earthly Messiah’ who is a ‘prophet, priest and king,’ according to the patterns established by Jesus Christ being the Heavenly “Prophet, Priest and King.” Jesus Christ is the “Lord God” of Genesis 2 who formed His “son of God” (Adam = Luke 3:38) from the dust of the ground, so he represented this entire universe in one ‘man from God’ (John 1:6). Jesus Christ is “The Lord” with His throne IN HEAVEN (Isa. 66:1), while David sits on a corresponding throne ON THIS EARTH as “His footstool.”

Jesus Christ is the Lord God who formed Adam and the Garden as “ONE” was created for the other. Adam is ‘one’ with the Land of the Garden and the father of every living soul in this universe. Jesus Christ became our “Eternal Father” (Isa. 9:6), or our ‘Grandfather,’ by forming our ‘earthly father’ (Adam) from the dust of the ground. The Lord God (Christ) made skins for Adam (Joshua, David, Ezekiel, John the Baptist) and for Eve (Noah and Moses). You are given a big clue in 2Kings 1:8 and Mark 1:6 that John the Baptist and Elijah are ‘skins’ for our father Adam. This is why when asked if he was Elijah, John the Baptist responded with a definite “No!” (John 1:21). Israel never woke up to the truth that John the Baptist was the ‘earthly Messiah’ and the ‘king’ of Matthew 11:8 who was “more than a prophet” (Matt. 11:9), as the “man from God” (John 1:6) through whom ALL were to ‘believe’ in the Light. John 1:4-9. The ‘earthly Messiah’ of the Kingdom of God ‘on earth AS IT IS in heaven’ (Matt. 6:10) was John the Baptist all along. :0) Christ told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world or even of this realm!

The Lord God (Christ) formed A MAN and His “son of God” (Luke 3:38) to sit on an ‘earthly throne,’ but men wish to transform “David” (Eze. 34:23-24, 37:24-28) into our Lord Jesus Christ. David/Elijah is the ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:19-26 coming to restore all things some 1000 years BEFORE Christ returns at the ‘end of the age.’ Ezekiel’s Third Temple will be restored by Elijah, as just one integral part of the ‘Tabernacle Of David,’ as the Holy Spirit in the Holy of Holies is the same ‘tree of life’ from the Garden of Eden. That is why David danced naked at the coming of the Ark into the city of David and with “all his might” (2Sam. 6:14), because he is pointing back to the ‘tree of life’ in the Garden when he was our father Adam. Reading the Psalms in this ‘context’ will enlighten souls to precisely what the diagram above works to teach. The antichrist comes to set up his “abomination of desolation” (Matt. 24:15) over our father Adam’s (David’s) dead body.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

I think we agree on a lot of what you posted, yet I do not have enough time to look through it all in any detail at this time, yet I do thank you for your post...

 

[Notrash]

They will be unregenerate Jews. Jews who do not believe in Messiah. This temple will not honor YHWH, yet the Jews living in Israel will build it anyway. One need only look on the net to see that Israel will indeed build it;

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/cornerstone.html

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0.../edition_id/186/format/html/displaystory.html

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/Events/20050620.htm

http://www.templemountfaithful.org/

Hi Jerry again,
on the first link, the 'watcher' site links to it's homepage. On there they begin to talk about the restoration of the state of Israel.http://www.mt.net/~watcher/date_set.html
From there I read where they emphasize the 1967 conflict as the starting point of the "generation" that will not pass. This would lead us to 2007.
I just want to share with you on a person to person level, that the issues and observations that you see happening now, many of us who are about 20 years older than you dealt with in 1988 due to Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye and others having published many books including '88' reasons the rapture will happen in 1988. (a generation after 1948)
The most respected (and most read,) layleaders in my church had taught some of these ideas to our youth group in the late '70's and early '80's, not as a total absolute truth but as his personal belief.

1988 (and other dates) came and went, but the 'futurists' teaching of end times has had an impact on many lives and people, especially to those of absolute faith in Jesus words. After 2007 comes and goes, they will focus on another date to spring from. Perhaps it will be 2001 as so much emphasis is being put on that date, or the 2006 skirmish with Hezbolah/Lebanon, or perhaps it will be if and when the entire area that was once Israel is again the 'state" of Israel.
Futurist interpretation, as compared to Historicism or Preterism, is the root of many of the dispensational teachings that we find today such as the rapture of the church and the restoration of Israel, etc. Futurism stops the prophetic clock of Daniel after 69 weeks with an unknown time 'future' restoration period of 7 years. I think Historism sees Daniel fulfilled AND a future 7 yr trib period that the church endures and I think Preterism sees both Daniel and Revelation (mostly fulfilled). They see the abominations and desolations of Dan 9 finding their fullfillment in the time of the first century with the total flatening of Jerusalem in 70 AD which was a generation after 30 AD. There were no stones unturned of the temple according to Josephus as the Roman solders looked for Gold that had melted down into the cracks. The 'wailing wall' is actually an outer retaining wall. (you can source reference this on google) Futurism says that the writings of the prophets will be fulfilled in a future time when Israel is reunited as a people or a nation. Preterism and Historicism outlooks see the prophets as finding their fullfillments in the reality of the body of Christ and the mystery (to the prophets in the dispersion it was a mystery) of his church and body. Many quotation of the old testament prophets in the New testament confirm this such as Acts 2:17, Acts 15:16,17 for just 2.

Unfortunately, several generation of preachers and teachers have been continually categorizing scripture and creating a 'religion' of doctrine and beliefs based on the 'futurist' perspective. Their belief system (that have been developed over many years), their identity as a person or biblical teacher, their means of making money as pastors, and their support and approval from their educational background are all reasons that it's difficult to contemplate parts of scripture that go against that system without compartmentalizing that scripture into a different dispensation.

I just wanted to mention date setting problems based on restored 'Israel' as a basis for my concern with futurist/dispensational dividing of scripture. I think you and I had a brief reference to 1967 in one of our previous posts but it may have been in a discussion with someone else. Just dont' be too deflated by 2007 coming and going without a pre-trib rapture.

I was thinking about what you had said here:

Not always. This is one of the ones which has a literal meaning. Symbols in Scripture are quite easy to pick out, there is no evidence that EZ was speaking in a symbolic way in these chapters. It is also quite telling that no where with all this detail which he presented in these chapters does he ever indicate thier meaning if they were not intended to be understood literlly. He never interprets his vision, this indicates that he expected it to be understood literally.

I've found a possible answer in the same passages that we've been focusing on. That is Isaiah 43:6-12,

6
Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man (Moses?)stood beside me. 7And He said to me, "Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places. 8When they set their threshold by My threshold, and their doorpost by My doorpost, with a wall between them and Me, they defiled My holy name by the abominations which they committed; therefore I have consumed them in My anger. 9Now let them put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from Me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.

Verse 8-9 gives indication that there is a symbolic meaning to the threshhold, and doorposts. They have defiled Gods name by abominations (Lies) they have committed. Vs 9 associates harlotry, concquests of other kings, (or exaltation of their own kings, not sure) with things unpleasing to God. Vs 7 and vs 9 use the word forever, thus this can't be refering to a physical temple that is later destroyed 'again'.

10Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern.

Iniquities and abominations are 'lie's and lying ways' and they result in various fruits of the flesh such as halotry and idolizing kings etc.

11And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, its entire design and all its ordinances, all its forms and all its laws. Write it down in their sight, so that they may keep its whole design and all its ordinances, and perform them. 12This is the law of the temple: The whole area surrounding the mountaintop is most holy. Behold, this is the law of the temple.

Here in verse 12 is the closest thing I could find to a explaination of the vision and it's symbolism. The Law of the Temple is a possibly a standard of living that God desires (no abominations, no Iniquities, no replacing Gods Word with their laws, or replacing the statutes of God with man-made religion, etc.) Apparently the Israelits that EZ is prophecying to have not been living up to Gods standards or desires. This can have associations with the Belivers life being the temple of God, but I dont' know if it is an direct prophecy or vision towards that reality or if it was only intended as a call to repentence and change towards the people of the dispersion.

Concerning a previous discussion on the idea that the eastern (jewish) mind more readily interprets visions and dreams symbolically, the terms I was referring to was Mishnah and Midrash. You can google them if you wish. Here is also a guy trying to find meaning from the dimensions of Solomons temple, but I dont' know how successfull he is. http://www.recoveredscience.com/const308TempleLayout.htm

Concerning your question about

Acts1: 6So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8But you (spiritual Israel of the new covenant) will receive power (come into the kingdom) when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses (Israel,the temple system and their prophets had carried the witness of God previously) in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." 9And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

To what were the apostles referring?

I know this is meant for someone else. But I assume others may chime in and the other person or persons can still offer their interpretation.

So seldom if ever have I seen a question asked by the disciples that isn't answered immediately or in the following texts either directly or in parables. It would seem to oppose the pattern that Jesus had established to leave them hanging with an unanswered question. In addition, such a unanswered question would have little value in the text and would be among the things about which the world would not have the space to hold the books to be printed. Thus reading the section with faith and trust in Jesus and that he is not an author of confusion, it seems that the apostles may possibly have yet been refering to and questioning a earthly reign of Christ as a nation of Israel. Rather than stopping and seperating the answer to the question with only vs 7 it seems possibly and likely that vs 8 and following are also part of the answer. Thus, Jesus answer was what we now see as Pentecost. If he would have told them of this answer at this time in their understanding they may have been on a militant watch ready to overthrow the Romans. Pentecost and the recieveing of the Spirit is WHEN those in Christ would come into the new 'kingdom' of Israel and become the witnesses of the new eternal covenant.

 

[Jerrysch]

Hi Jerry again,
on the first link, the 'watcher' site links to it's homepage. On there they begin to talk about the restoration of the state of Israel.http://www.mt.net/~watcher/date_set.html
From there I read where they emphasize the 1967 conflict as the starting point of the "generation" that will not pass. This would lead us to 2007.
I just want to share with you on a person to person level, that the issues and observations that you see happening now, many of us who are about 20 years older than you dealt with in 1988 due to Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye and others having published many books including '88' reasons the rapture will happen in 1988. (a generation after 1948)
The most respected (and most read,) layleaders in my church had taught some of these ideas to our youth group in the late '70's and early '80's, not as a total absolute truth but as his personal belief.

1988 .

I remember much of these, I am a bit older than you think . Many have been involved in datre setting, yet their errors have come home to roost, so to speak. That does not negate the fact that Messiah indicated that He will return prior to the great tribulation, not to set up His kingdom, but to remove His church. The time is unknown, many have as you stated tried to set a date, and YHWH has proven them wrong, has He not? My intent in presenting you those links is that there are a great number of people of Jewish blood who are getting ready to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. I think, if I recall that was all I was seeking to make known by the links.

 

[Jerrysch]

1988 (and other dates) came and went, but the 'futurists' teaching of end times has had an impact on many lives and people, especially to those of absolute faith in Jesus words. After 2007 comes and goes, they will focus on another date to spring from. Perhaps it will be 2001 as so much emphasis is being put on that date, or the 2006 skirmish with Hezbolah/Lebanon, or perhaps it will be if and when the entire area that was once Israel is again the 'state" of Israel. .

Again you are correct it is unwise to "date set", He will make His appearance when He is good and ready to do so.

 

[Jerrysch]

I think you have captured this, only a minor difference that I see, not enough to comment on

 

[Jerrysch]

Unfortunately, several generation of preachers and teachers have been continually categorizing scripture and creating a 'religion' of doctrine and beliefs based on the 'futurist' perspective. Their belief system (that have been developed over many years), their identity as a person or biblical teacher, their means of making money as pastors, and their support and approval from their educational background are all reasons that it's difficult to contemplate parts of scripture that go against that system without compartmentalizing that scripture into a different dispensation.

I just wanted to mention date setting problems based on restored 'Israel' as a basis for my concern with futurist/dispensational dividing of scripture. I think you and I had a brief reference to 1967 in one of our previous posts but it may have been in a discussion with someone else. Just dont' be too deflated by 2007 coming and going without a pre-trib rapture.

Indeed it will come in His own good time. Yet it will come.