The Millennial Temple

[Jerrysch]

Christ reigns as King of Kings now. What did Paul and Peter say about the Temple?

Ephesians 2
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.



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This is a figurative usage, unless you consider that the apostles literally had a building built upon thier bodies. And, Jesus is not a literal "stone" but there is a literal meaning to which this figure of speach refers, that is then its literal meaning. To insist that Jesus is a stone is "letterism" a practice which those of us who employ a consistant literal hermeneutic do not advocate.

 

[Jerrysch]

Christ reigns as King of Kings now. What did Paul and Peter say about the Temple?

I Peter 2
4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

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Again this is a figure of speach.

 

[Jerrysch]

The Millennial Temple already exists....It existed in the Days of Paul; he wrote often about it.

The temple was destroyed; and remade in three days; just as Jesus predicted. It is the temple made without hands; ye are the temple of God. Today is the day of Salvation. The final and ultimate sacrifice has been made.

Jn2:13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”
18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.

He was indeed speaking of the temple of His body, yet He still referred to the Temple as the Temple as the context proves.
The Millennial Temple is that which was described in great detail by Ezekiel , it will be built, because God said it would, by way of His prophet Ezekiel .

 

[Jerrysch]

I wonder what would cause God to like those sacrifices, if thats the way it is to be in the millennial reign.

That is a very good question, you forgot a few quotes in your list;

Gen 8:20 Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Ex 20: 24 " 'Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you.

Looks like God is honored in this, and I am sure that there are many many more examples in which God is honored in the offering of a sacrifice. What did not honor God, was a sacrifice which was not offered in good faith, I think that covers most of your examples. Yet it must not be forgotten, that this sacrifical system was God's idea, not man's. It was God who commanded it not man who offered it. And during the Millennial Kingdom, sacrifices will be offered, chiefly because God's word says that they will, but it is my opinion that they will be offered as a rememberance.

 

[Hedgehog]

As a side note, after writing this post Jerry, I wanna ask that you read it in its entirety. I just spent an entire hour writing it out. Print it out and go sit down and be comfortable or print it out and take it to your Bible study and say " Hey look what this crazy lady online thinks" LOL or whatever ever you want.
I would just like to know its been read, I spent alot of time writing it and I think it has valuable information.






Jerry, I wont debate it any more after this , I know it "appears" as though God wanted animals sacrificed. I know that.

My personal opinion ( and just that- my *personal* opinion) of what *I* see from scripture is that God ALWAYS wanted faithful people to be the called out ones... never what people call "Israel". Not Abrahams bloodline family. Sure , maybe some of them were saved and "chosen" too, but certainly not just because they were born into the family.

I see it as God ALWAYS wanting sacrifices of self..character/moral/ Godly behavior.. love. NOT animals.

What a ploy Satan had going on there......" hey you people, just because your born into this family, you are *righteous*. " and " hey kill ANIMALS, yeah, yeah, THATS what God means" " when it says to wash the inward parts.. it means wash animals inward parts... not *your own heart*..... God likes animals being killed, he finds it pleasing to Him"
"ignore what the prophets are telling you, as a matter of fact, KILL THEM,they are speaking against God.. trying to make it look like God doesnt want these animal sacrifices"

Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

"Pshaw..... who cares how David is making it look"


Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting

" heck, its not the(killing animals) incense thats iniquity... its because JoBob next door touched leaven and then he didnt wash a gazillion times and then he didnt even add the correct amount of oil and flour....... you know these things are important to God, its how we REALLY should worship Him, they're so practical and useful..... we should spend all day thinking on these little details..... we dont have time to love our neighbor and offer out kindness..... not if JoBobs going to profane the Most High God and touch leaven"


Isa 43:23 I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.


Ecc 10:15 The labour of the foolish wearieth every one of them, because he knoweth not how to go to the city.


I'll tell you in my own words Jerry, what I feel like happened.. because if I quoted it all.... I'd have to quote the entire Bible.

Israel asked not to hear the voice of God again on Mount Sinai.

So hes what God did:


Gen 19:11 And they smote the men that [were] at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

OK, now I *KNOW* that scripture is taken out of context... I know what that particular story was about..... BUT- first remember Israel is spiritually called Egypt and Sodom ( per Revelation)..... and also, in the context of the entire Bible..... this verse sums it up the best.

Israel asked not to hear God... they worshipped the golden calf.... they were being wicked instead of showing righteous behavior that pertains to "saints"...... as a whole they were "smote" , they that were at the "Door" ( Jesus is the Door) and were made "blind"....... so that they "wearied" themselves to find " the Door".

Which is why they did NOT understand what God wanted of them... which is why they were arrogant and vain and thought THEY were righteous just because they were born into a certain nationality.
Which is why they misunderstood and thought animal sacrifices were the way to go.


Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:
Lev 26:16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes( this is the "blindness"), and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.

What I am saying is....I believe Jesus could have came ( and again, I hate to say, it "could" have been done this way or that... because I know God has a perfect plan and will carry it out how He sees fit) on Mount Sinai.... but they did not have faith and obey what God wants.
They were " at the door".. there at Sinai. How many times would God have gathered His chicks. They limited the Holy One of Israel..... etc etc...
God gave them up to worship the hosts of heaven...
A law was given that was ordained and handed out by angels..

They asked not to hear God and they didnt.
They "confirmed" an oath, with blood( Moses did, speaks of this in Hebrews)...... now Galatians says that when someone does that, no man can disannul it...... hence, THEY WERE BOUND TO THAT LAW.

Because of THEM , not God. Had it been what God wanted, why would He change it? Why would Jesus need to come and "nail it to the cross" ?

They needed to follow what that law said.... and it was :

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand;

2Sa 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Pro 7:27 Her house [is] the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Her=ethnic Israel, not faithful Israel.

Pro 15:11 Hell and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?


This is what Israel did:

Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

When Israel made this agreement on Mount Sinai, they were bound to following it... hence God Himself needed to follow the law.. because God is a faithful and trustful God... He follows the rules.

Isa 43:24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.


Jerry, do you suppose for a second that God could have always wanted sacrifices of self.... love... and that Satan messed with that from the beginning?

What do you suppose God meant when He told them initially:

Exd 3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Did He mean an animal sacrifice? Now Im not asking what Israel DID, Im asking what God MEANT.

Because God says :
Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

BUT THEY WENT BACKWARDS

Jer 7:24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels [and] in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

How did they go backwards?
Where had they just come from? BONDAGE, bondage in Egypt.
Did they go BACK to Egypt? No they didnt.
This time they went into bondage of the law.


Isa 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

Now, I know this is sort of out of context too.
But the Bible is FULL of symbolism.. King of Babylon.... the Assyrian..... all point towards Satan.... though I am NOT saying there was no king of Babylon or any Assyrians....

Who is God telling they will have rest from the sorrow wherein they were made to serve?
THE FAITHFUL people who were BOUND under the old covenant.
Because they had made an oath........ even the faithful were bound to perform the law...... but God would take them out of it.


Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

They knew not God at that time... they had faith, like it talks about Abraham sojourning to a land he didnt know....but they didnt know the whole story.

Or was this in Galatians spoken to unbelievers? I dont think it was.


Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Dont set yourself up to expect and believe in the weak and beggerly elements. It isnt going to be a "memorial"...... its going to be deception straight from Satan, if it happens.

Look at the "real" eternal temple... dont wait for animal sacrificing..... sacrifice , RIGHT NOW!! Sacrifices of YOURSELF. Be loving. Be kind.
When you see someone who needs help(but not enabling towards sin), dont judge them, dont worry when your going to get paid back, just help. Give.
Call someone up and tell them your a real friend and your glad to have them in your life.

Satan sure did a number on the world and it took Jesus and the coming of the Comforter to straighten it out.



Take a look at this :

Eze 8:8 Then said he unto me, Son of man, dig now in the wall: and when I had digged in the wall, behold a door.

Ok, now I am going to give you my "out of context" version...
"Dig in the wall".... LOOK INTO THE LAW!!
Behold a door.....Behold, JESUS!!

You will see Jesus, if you look carefully into the law.


Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Jhn 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


One more thing about the animal sacrifice. Once they were held to the law, I believe God gave other commandments pertaining to them.... He was trying to get Israel to SEE what He really wanted. "Symbolically"
He was using the law that they bound themselves to , to benefit them.

If you look deeper, you will see how Jesus kept right up with and performed, fulfilled exacts about the law( this is why it says He was made to serve with their sin).... such as after a woman gives birth, she is unclean 33 days..... Jesus lived 33 years..... then the woman is to give her sacrifice and "be clean"..... after those 33 years, Jesus WAS that sacrifice.( of the "woman" faithful Israel. The woman spoken of in Revelation...the "virgin" Israel who didnt harlot after other gods, but had faith,even though they didnt understand...This woman is different then the "harlot" Israel, who DID harlot after other gods.... that "Israel" is NOT the Israel who "gave birth" to Jesus)

 

[Jerrysch]

As a side note, after writing this post Jerry, I wanna ask that you read it in its entirety. I just spent an entire hour writing it out. Print it out and go sit down and be comfortable or print it out and take it to your Bible study and say " Hey look what this crazy lady online thinks" LOL or whatever ever you want.
I would just like to know its been read, I spent alot of time writing it and I think it has valuable information.






Jerry, I wont debate it any more after this , I know it "appears" as though God wanted animals sacrificed. I know that.

I read you post, did you want to discuss anything you brought up? There were so many thinks we could make a 100 threads and not cover them all

You have to break them down.

When the Old(er) Testament believer encountered the Scriptures regarding the Millennial Temple in Ez. 40-48 (for one source) what was the understanding that they brought away from it?

 

[Hedgehog]

I read you post, did you want to discuss anything you brought up? There were so many thinks we could make a 100 threads and not cover them all

First of all, thank you Jerry for acknowledging my post and letting me know you've read it, thank you very much.

When the Old(er) Testament believer encountered the Scriptures regarding the Millennial Temple in Ez. 40-48 (for one source) what was the understanding that they brought away from it?

I have no doubt that they seen a literal temple only.

They didnt know:

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

But they had no excuse as to why they couldnt have known :

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

Jerry, there is NOTHING holy about a brick and mortar temple. There is NOTHING holy about killing animals.... those are temoral things, rudiments of the world, elements of the world....Gods glory is SPIRITUAL.ETERNAL. In place ALWAYS whether there is a(physical) temple or not. He doesnt dwell there like they assumed. He NEVER did. He was ALWAYS speaking about people. They took it out of the REAL/spiritual context and assumed it was a temple/house. It wasnt.


ANYWAYS- heres how they could have known:

Psa 118:22 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner.
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Heres where it is explained :

Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

Luk 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner

Why do you think Jesus said :
Did ye never read in the scriptures? And have ye not read this scripture?
when He was speaking about this subject?

....... why do you think the "millennial temple" is not spoken of in the NT....... its because its been explained.

the stone which the builders disallowed,

Which builders is this talking about? Israel?They disallowed a stone, in their own temple? Perhaps thats because they chose to rely on/trust in their own physical temples instead of the "real" one.





Let me show you something in the law :
Lev 14:40 Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague [is], and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city:
Lev 14:42 And they shall take other stones, and put [them] in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house.

Ok, the "priest" (Jesus) shall command that they take away the "stones" (people) in which the plague is(unfaithful) and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city (outside of salvation) and they shall take "other stones" and put them in the place of those stones.

Ok , does this sound eerily like being "graffed in" ?
These laws are talking about a "house"....... well Israel is called the "House" of Israel too.... see where Im going?

Jesus Himself says :

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Can you point out specifically where the law spoke of Jesus, if we do NOT look at it symbolically?
I would specifically like this question answered if possible.




Thank you again for the interesting topics to discuss.

 

[Jerrysch]

First of all, thank you Jerry for acknowledging my post and letting me know you've read it, thank you very much.







I have no doubt that they seen a literal temple only.

.

So why would YHWH have told them something (that there was going to be a Temple) when , assuming that you are corect for the discussion, why would He tell them something when He knew that He wasn't going to do it at all? Why would He give them revealtion which was deceptive? Let's put it another way, you tell your child you will give them ice cream but then don't give them icecream at all, but make them go to bed early, whould your child be right in thinking that you had decieved her? Would you have? They why would God tell the children of Israel by way of one of His prophets that there will be a Temple and go on and on about the measurements and the rooms and their sizes an all that if He had no intention of having it built? Have you ever read all the detail that Eze. reveiled in these chapters? And you would have us believe that all this detail is for nothing? Redefining the words of the Old(er) Testament to fit ones New(er) Testament theology is not valid!

 

[Jerrysch]

Jerry, there is NOTHING holy about a brick and mortar temple. There is NOTHING holy about killing animals.... those are temoral things, rudiments of the world, elements of the world....Gods glory is SPIRITUAL.ETERNAL. In place ALWAYS whether there is a(physical) temple or not. He doesnt dwell there like they assumed. He NEVER did. He was ALWAYS speaking about people. They took it out of the REAL/spiritual context and assumed it was a temple/house. It wasnt.


.

These things were holy because they were commanded by God. Do you think men made these requirements up? That it was man's idea to make a temple? No, it was God who directed these things, and before the Temple stood, there was the Tabernacle. These were all required by God.

Regarding God's presence, relative to the Tabernacle;

Exodus 40:34 Then the cloud covered the tabernacle of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

40:35 And Moses was not able to enter the tabernacle of meeting, because the cloud rested above it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Lev. 9:23 And Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle of meeting, and came out and blessed the people. Then the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people,

1 Kings 8

1 Now Solomon assembled the elders of Israel and all the heads of the tribes, the chief fathers of the children of Israel, to King Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD from the City of David, which is Zion. 2 Therefore all the men of Israel assembled with King Solomon at the feast in the month of Ethanim, which is the seventh month. 3 So all the elders of Israel came, and the priests took up the ark. 4 Then they brought up the ark of the LORD, the tabernacle of meeting, and all the holy furnishings that were in the tabernacle. The priests and the Levites brought them up. 5 Also King Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel who were assembled with him, were with him before the ark, sacrificing sheep and oxen that could not be counted or numbered for multitude. 6 Then the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD to its place, into the inner sanctuary of the temple, to the Most Holy Place, under the wings of the cherubim. 7 For the cherubim spread their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubim overshadowed the ark and its poles. 8 The poles extended so that the ends of the poles could be seen from the holy place, in front of the inner sanctuary; but they could not be seen from outside. And they are there to this day. 9 Nothing was in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.
10 And it came to pass, when the priests came out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, 11 so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD.


14 Then the king turned around and blessed the whole assembly of Israel, while all the assembly of Israel was standing. 15 And he said: “Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, who spoke with His mouth to my father David, and with His hand has fulfilled it, saying, 16 ‘Since the day that I brought My people Israel out of Egypt, I have chosen no city from any tribe of Israel in which to build a house, that My name might be there; but I chose David to be over My people Israel.’ 17 Now it was in the heart of my father David to build a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel. 18 But the LORD said to my father David, ‘Whereas it was in your heart to build a temple for My name, you did well that it was in your heart. 19 Nevertheless you shall not build the temple, but your son who will come from your body, he shall build the temple for My name.’ 20 So the LORD has fulfilled His word which He spoke; and I have filled the position of my father David, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised; and I have built a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel. 21 And there I have made a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD which He made with our fathers, when He brought them out of the land of Egypt.”

2 Chron 7: 1 When Solomon had finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the temple.2 And the priests could not enter the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD’s house.


God's presence was manifest in the Tabernacle as well as in the Temple, and I have also shown that it was God who commanded that a Temple be built by Solomon.

 

[Jerrysch]

Can you point out specifically where the law spoke of Jesus, if we do NOT look at it symbolically?
I would specifically like this question answered if possible.




Thank you again for the interesting topics to discuss.

It doesn't speak of Jesus, why would it be necessary to speak of Jesus in the Law? But let's look at the law it was given to demonstate sin, the law has no provision for the removal of sin, it only has provision for the covering of sin. The law showed that redemption was needed, but it had not been revieled that God the Son was going to take on flesh and die a substitutionary death for the sins of the whole world at that time. Those who lived under the Mosiac Law did not have the knowledge of the redeemer that we have on this side of the cross, yet there were many who were justified by faith even so. Thier lack of knowing that Jesus was messiah did not exclude them from being considered justified by faith in the eyes of God.

 

[Driver]

So why would YHWH have told them something (that there was going to be a Temple) when , assuming that you are corect for the discussion, why would He tell them something when He knew that He wasn't going to do it at all? Why would He give them revealtion which was deceptive? Let's put it another way, you tell your child you will give them ice cream but then don't give them icecream at all, but make them go to bed early, whould your child be right in thinking that you had decieved her? Would you have? They why would God tell the children of Israel by way of one of His prophets that there will be a Temple and go on and on about the measurements and the rooms and their sizes an all that if He had no intention of having it built? Have you ever read all the detail that Eze. reveiled in these chapters? And you would have us believe that all this detail is for nothing? Redefining the words of the Old(er) Testament to fit ones New(er) Testament theology is not valid!

Do you believe that Jews who reject Jesus justified in rejecting Jesus if they don't believe He fulfilled any of the Messianic prophecies? Why did they not believe? Were the Messianic prophecies deceptive?

Are they justified in receiving any "Messiah candidate" who rebuilds a physical temple to their expectations and reinstates temple sacrifices?

 

[Jerrysch]

Do you believe that Jews who reject Jesus justified in rejecting Jesus if they don't believe He fulfilled any of the Messianic prophecies? Why did they not believe? Were the Messianic prophecies deceptive?

Jews who rejected Jesus were not justified. They did not believe for the very same reasons Gentiles don't believe. No the Messianic prophecies were not deceptive.

 

[Jerrysch]

Are they justified in receiving any "Messiah candidate" who rebuilds a physical temple to their expectations and reinstates temple sacrifices?

Oddly enough It is my opinion that many Jews will consider him who builds the next (Tribulation) Temple to be Messiah, many Jews will tell you this, yet they have the wrong Temple, He will build the Millennial Temple. It is my opinion that the antichrist will take a leading part in having the Tribulation Termple built, I mean the Jews are ready to built it now, If only they could get someone to interceed with those who are controlling Temple mount to allow the building, I really don't think there is too much left to be done till it gets built.

 

[Hedgehog]

It doesn't speak of Jesus, why would it be necessary to speak of Jesus in the Law?

What do these verses mean then?

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled,which were written in the law of Moses , and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

Jerry, what was Jesus talking about at the time... and what was written in the law of Moses?( and prophets and psalms)

Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Why did Philip say they have found Him, who the law ( and prophets) wrote about?

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

How do you suppose Paul persuaded them about Jesus out of the law of Moses and the prophets? Could you, Jerry, preach Jesus and every point about him, out of the law and the prophets?
I *really really* doubt a Jew would have accepted "new" prophecy from Paul. Im sure they would have had to have been able to see it all clearly laid out in the OT.
And isnt that how we are told to test it anyways? If its in scripture?

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

What does this mean Jerry? What was until John?

So why would YHWH have told them something (that there was going to be a Temple) when , assuming that you are corect for the discussion, why would He tell them something when He knew that He wasn't going to do it at all? Why would He give them revealtion which was deceptive?

Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts [as] an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

Isa 64:7 And [there is] none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Jer 33:5 They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but [it is] to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.

Amo 9:3 And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them:

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luk 9:45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.


Do you think these things just started being hid when Jesus was walking the earth? NO they had been "hid" for a LOOOOONG time.
But Jesus had to come, die take our sin off us, so THAT the Holy Spirit could come, this is why even while He walked the earth ,He spoke in parable.. He had not yet died and taken sin away.... even He was bound to speak in parable, until He had accomplished His death, fulfilling what the law required.
Once He has done that, Truth could be shown to mankind thru the Holy Spirit.
He "disannulled" Moses oath/covenant with death and hell/blindness etc..


Same reason as why Jesus tells them He spoke in parables. The believers would know.


Job 17:4 For thou hast hid their heart from understanding: therefore shalt thou not exalt [them].

Who has He hid it from? Those who dont care. Those who trust in other things aside from faith.Those jews who wanted to have elaborate temple service/sacrifices and trust in that. Those Jews who wanted to kill the prophets instead of hearing what they meant.
But there were some who had ideas about what God wanted. Theres always been a remnant. They might not have seen clearly what we see now.. how could they?
Would *I* have been able to figure out everything God meant, if I only had the OT? I really really doubt it.
But they knew enough.

Psa 25:14 The secret of the LORD [is] with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

Pro 3:32 For the froward [is] abomination to the LORD: but his secret [is] with the righteous.







My opinion is that Gods real chosen people ( faithful) were hidden ( from satan) inside of a "supposed" chosen group of people.. Israel.
Satan could wreak havoc all he wanted on "Israel", because Gods chosen were "hidden" satan didnt know who Gods real chosen were.
He figured , right along with ethnic Israel that it was those specific bloodline people.
And many many.... UNFAITHFUL were taken with that same snare.

Psa 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

Psa 69:22 Let their table become a snare before them: and [that which should have been] for [their] welfare, [let it become] a trap.

Isa 24:17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, [are] upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.




There been one chosen, faithful people, one temple, faithful people,one sanctuary, faithful people.
Theres been one truth, thruout all time, faith.
Satan/sin did a good job hiding it from people and it took Jesus to take that off of mankind so that the Holy Spirit could dwell in people and show the Truth.

 

[Jerrysch]

Gen 19:11 And they smote the men that [were] at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

OK, now I *KNOW* that scripture is taken out of context... I know what that particular story was about.....
Now, I know this is sort of out of context too.
But the Bible is FULL of symbolism.. King of Babylon.... the Assyrian..... all point towards Satan.... though I am NOT saying there was no king of Babylon or any Assyrians....


Ok, now I am going to give you my "out of context" version...
"Dig in the wall".... LOOK INTO THE LAW!!
Behold a door.....Behold, JESUS!!

I noticed that you used some verses out of context, and then stated that you knew you had, and gave indication that it was a wrong thing to do, and yet you did so and sought to support some of your argument on that out of context passage, why did you do this? You recognized that it was wrong, even admitted it, in so many words, and yet you did it and sought to support your claims based upon this.

What sort of value do you hold the word of God to have? Do you consider it to be something to use to win verbal battles, or is it the very word of the living God? Do you think God will hold blameless them who distort the meaning of His word? Do you realize that by doing this you are doing the same thing as a person who falsifies the terms of a written contract? Are you aware of what you are doing? I am sorry to have had to say this, but I feel that I would be remiss to just overlook this, in that we are seeking to discover what God meant by what He said

 

[Jerrysch]

What do these verses mean then?





Jerry, what was Jesus talking about at the time... and what was written in the law of Moses?( and prophets and psalms)






Why did Philip say they have found Him, who the law ( and prophets) wrote about?



How do you suppose Paul persuaded them about Jesus out of the law of Moses and the prophets? Could you, Jerry, preach Jesus and every point about him, out of the law and the prophets?
.

Well you got me on that one, Indeed the scriptures say what they say.

 

[Jerrysch]

My opinion is that Gods real chosen people ( faithful) were hidden ( from satan) inside of a "supposed" chosen group of people.. Israel.
Satan could wreak havoc all he wanted on "Israel", because Gods chosen were "hidden" satan didnt know who Gods real chosen were.
He figured , right along with ethnic Israel that it was those specific bloodline people.
And many many.... UNFAITHFUL were taken with that same snare.

Psa 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

Psa 69:22 Let their table become a snare before them: and [that which should have been] for [their] welfare, [let it become] a trap.

Isa 24:17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, [are] upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.

Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.




There been one chosen, faithful people, one temple, faithful people,one sanctuary, faithful people.
Theres been one truth, thruout all time, faith.
Satan/sin did a good job hiding it from people and it took Jesus to take that off of mankind so that the Holy Spirit could dwell in people and show the Truth.

Well your opinion is not based upon Scripture, for Scripture indicates that ethnic Israel to be a chosen people as well as the church. Tow peoples two different sets of promices, two different inheritances. And the reason you do not see two peoples of God is because you adhear to the unbiblical consept of a covenant of works and a covenant of grace, which are nowhere delineated in Scripture. With but one operational covenant, CT lumps all the faithful of all ages under it, and claim that this group of faithful people are/were the church. That is, by the way, the unifying consept of CT.

 

[Hedgehog]

What sort of value do you hold the word of God to have? Do you consider it to be something to use to win verbal battles, or is it the very word of the living God? Do you think God will hold blameless them who distort the meaning of His word? Do you realize that by doing this you are doing the same thing as a person who falsifies the terms of a written contract? Are you aware of what you are doing? I am sorry to have had to say this, but I feel that I would be remiss to just overlook this, in that we are seeking to discover what God meant by what He said

Jerry, feel free to disagree with me all you want, but please dont dont imply that my objective here is to win verbal battles. Please dont imply that the Word of God has no value to me aside from that.
I have never gave personal opinions of you aside from to ask that you dont take it personally.... we are here typing on a computer..trying to learn, share.. not to give personal opinions of peoples character or motives.


I have never said I dont believe the original intent of the scriptures, I believe every last story. I believe God used those life experiences to show the people of the time, AND US now through their stories what He wants us to know.
Paul himself takes verses " out of context" of what Israel knew under the old covenant. It doesnt mean that Paul is using it "out of context" it means that he is shedding light in the eternal/spiritual context.

Well your opinion is not based upon Scripture,

Have you spoken directly to God Himself Jerry?
Again, disagree with me all you want, but to be so set in ones beliefs that they are unwilling to consider other things... isnt that what Israel did, and what caused them to miss their Messiah?
I have given scripture after scripture after scripture... very few taken out of context- so scratch those if you like- to show my "opinions" of what I see in the Bible.

Answer every question Ive asked then, if you feel so set in what you believe and if your way of interpretting the Bible answers all the questions and is the one way to truth.

 

[Jerrysch]

Jerry, feel free to disagree with me all you want, but please dont dont imply that my objective here is to win verbal battles. Please dont imply that the Word of God has no value to me aside from that.
I have never gave personal opinions of you aside from to ask that you dont take it personally.... we are here typing on a computer..trying to learn, share.. not to give personal opinions of peoples character or motives.

I did not take great pleasure in this post, yet I felt compelled to say exactly what I have said. Your employment of Scripture taken out of its context is quite distressing. It is in deed one thing to do so as an error in interpretation, but to openly do so and then admit that one has done so, well what are we all to believe regarding this? Engaging in this practice is distorting the word of God, and your response seems to indicate that you do not view this to be an inappropriate thing to do. And regarding your motives for doing this, well your motives are your own, and they have not been fully explained (nor at this point am I interested in them). The value of the word of God to you is indeed an unanswered question, in that if you are willing to distort the meaning of what God said, and then admit that that is exactly what you are doing, it doesn’t demonstrate that you hold His word in too high a regard. Now it is unknown by me just how high you regard the word of God, but you are not demonstrating that you hold it in high regard by misquoting what God has said in it. This is not a personal opinion, it is an observation of an activity which you have admitted that you are engaged in, and I am not making any judgments regarding your character, yet I thought it proper to point out my disagreement with what you are presenting to me to convince me of the correctness of your discussion.

 

[Jerrysch]

I have never said I dont believe the original intent of the scriptures, I believe every last story. I believe God used those life experiences to show the people of the time, AND US now through their stories what He wants us to know.
Paul himself takes verses " out of context" of what Israel knew under the old covenant. It doesnt mean that Paul is using it "out of context" it means that he is shedding light in the eternal/spiritual context.

I don’t recall having questioned your belief regarding the scriptures, God does indeed use the Scriptures to teach those who are willing to read them, but yet, to distort what He has said, willingly, by way of presenting passages out of their context, is in reality distorting the message contained in Scripture. To do so unknowingly is error, to do so intentionally…. Well, that just cannot be ignored, it needs to be confronted, and that is the reason that I have confronted you upon this issue.