The Millennial Temple

[Jerrysch]

So seldom if ever have I seen a question asked by the disciples that isn't answered immediately or in the following texts either directly or in parables. It would seem to oppose the pattern that Jesus had established to leave them hanging with an unanswered question. In addition, such a unanswered question would have little value in the text and would be among the things about which the world would not have the space to hold the books to be printed. Thus reading the section with faith and trust in Jesus and that he is not an author of confusion, it seems that the apostles may possibly have yet been refering to and questioning a earthly reign of Christ as a nation of Israel. Rather than stopping and seperating the answer to the question with only vs 7 it seems possibly and likely that vs 8 and following are also part of the answer. Thus, Jesus answer was what we now see as Pentecost. If he would have told them of this answer at this time in their understanding they may have been on a militant watch ready to overthrow the Romans. Pentecost and the recieveing of the Spirit is WHEN those in Christ would come into the new 'kingdom' of Israel and become the witnesses of the new eternal covenant.

I disagree I condsider that the apostles were asking Him if this was the time when He was going to set up His kingdom, that is His earthly kingdom. Jesus indicated that it was not to happen at that time, yet He did not indicate that they misunderstood the fact that there would be a kingdom. Each and every reference to Jesus as "son of David" has not only messianic overtones but also overtones of the kingdom messiah will set up. This all in fulfillment of the promices given to ethnic Israel through all the prophets.

 

[Notrash]

I disagree I condsider that the apostles were asking Him if this was the time when He was going to set up His kingdom, that is His earthly kingdom. Jesus indicated that it was not to happen at that time, yet He did not indicate that they misunderstood the fact that there would be a kingdom. Each and every reference to Jesus as "son of David" has not only messianic overtones but also overtones of the kingdom messiah will set up. This all in fulfillment of the promices given to ethnic Israel through all the prophets.

Thanks for your perspective. Yes, we disagree, Does not Acts 15:16,17, for one, indicate that the Davidic tabernacle is being fulfilled in the kingdom of God/heaven that began (better words added: enforced, confirmed with power, better understood, progressively revealed , continued, added to,) at Pentecost.? You say "Jesus indicated that it was not to happen at that time". That is not true. He did not give that indication unless you come to the text with that preconceived interpretation. He simply told them that it was not for them to know the times and seasons the father has fixed by his authority...but, continuing his answer, you will recieve power..... (added comments: To me, it was almost as if by times and seasons, he was answering the question of Christs coming in power and Glory and judgement, that only the Father knew.")

Following the example and character of Christ as he answered his disciples other questions in the Gospels and with Faith and Trust in that Person and Character greatly supports that his answer to their question is associated with the coming of the power of the Holy Ghost.
Every previous time in the Gospels, Jesus taught the ideas that 'the kingdom of God is within you." He previously had rebuked Peter for his not understanding his mission of the cross, for Peter apparently had these kingdom of earth ideas.
I think that very simply rather than again rebuke the disciples as he did in Matt 16:23, "Thou art an offence to Me; for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men, he answered them and their question in a way that they would understand after recieving the indwelling fullness and teaching of the Holy Spirit.

This earthly kingdom idea and Jesus rebuttal in Matt 16:23 also helps clarify and understand 2 Cor 5:16. The disciples and Paul once regarded Jesus after the flesh (after their own wishes and desires for an earthly kingdom to escape the oppression and rule of the Roman Govt), but as Paul says, we known not that way any longer. They no longer have a desire for a earthly or worldly kingdom after the flesh (as they once did) His disciples are IN the world, but not OF the world.

I'll offer again Philip mauro's commentary which I only found a few hours ago. It mirrors very close to how I percieve things.

THE DISCIPLES' QUESTION IN ACTS I​

Acts 1:6-8. Here we have the record of our Lord's last words to His disciples before His ascension. The disciples had at last nerved themselves to ask plainly and directly concerning that which was ever uppermost in their Jewish minds; saying, "Lord, wilt Thou at this time restore again the Kingdom to Israel?" His reply (I quote from Bagster's Interlinear) was:

"It is not yours to know times or seasons which the Father placed in His own authority; but ye will receive power, the Holy Ghost having come upon you, and ye shall be witnesses to Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth."​

It is quite possible to read into these words the idea that there was to be, in some future "times or seasons," a restoration of earthly dominion to Israel. In fact the writer himself having accepted these modern "Jewish fables" (Which have become so astonishingly popular of late) held to that idea until he could no longer close his eyes to the fact that, by placing that interpretation upon the passage, he was making it contradict the plain teaching of the entire New Testament.
On the other hand it is not difficult to assign to the words of our Lord, quoted above, a meaning that accords perfectly with the Scriptures we have been examining; and this, of course, is what we are bound to do. A careful consideration and quiet pondering of those words lead to the conclusion that here, as on many other occasions, our Lord simply ignored what was in the minds of His disciples (for His thoughts were not their thoughts, neither were their ways His ways). He might well have administered to them on this occasion the same rebuke He had administered to Peter, when that disciple spoke to Him under the influence of the same Jewish expectation; to whom He said, "Thou art an offence to Me; for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men (Matt. 16:23). But the course He now took was to disregard entirely the thought of their hearts, and simply to impress upon them the fact that their all-engrossing occupation was to be that of bearing testimony to His resurrection from the dead. It was to be their supreme business to proclaim that mighty truth of the gospel to the whole world; and for the accomplishment of that great mission, power would be given them through the coming upon them, in a few days, of the Holy Spirit from heaven.
Moreover, a new order of things was then at hand; for Christ was not henceforth to teach them in person and directly, but indirectly, through the Holy Spirit, Who, as He had already told them, should guide them into all truth (John 16:13). And it is a striking fact that after they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit they never again spoke of that sort of a kingdom (Acts 8:12, 19:8, 20:25; 28:31; Rom. 14:17; 1 Cor. 4:20; 15:50; Col. 1:13; 2 Thess. 1:5; Rev. 1:19; &c.).
It is clear from the wording of the disciples' question that they had no doubt in their minds that the kingdom was to be restored to Israel, the only thing to be settled with them being whether the time of its restoration was then at hand; also there is good reason to believe that their conception of the nature of the expected kingdom did not differ materially from that of their fellow Israelites.
There has been discussion in print recently as to whether the question the disciples put to their risen Lord was "an intelligent question"; and it has been argued in behalf of modern Dispensationalism that the question was an "intelligent" one, and that it would follow from the Lord's reply that the kingdom was to be restored to Israel at some time then future.
I agree that the question was intelligent; and indeed deem it a most natural and almost inevitable, question for them to ask; for they, in common with all their compatriots, groaning under the tyranny of Rome's iron yoke, were eagerly awaiting the emancipation of the Jewish people and the re-establishment of the earthly kingdom of Israel. Moreover, they had heard their Master say, "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom" (Luke 12:32); and at a later time they heard Him say to the chief priests and elders at Jerusalem, "Therefore I say unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matt. 21:43). And finally, during those forty days when He had appeared to them from time to time, He had been "speaking of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." Hence the question was "intelligent" enough.
But it is needful to remember that there were certain things concerning the Kingdom which He was not ready to make known to them, because they were not as yet ready to receive them; things they were to learn later on through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. The Lord had said to them on the night of His betrayal, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:12-13). Especially the truth as to Israel's relationship to the kingdom was a thing they could not "bear" until baptized by the Spirit; for to natural Jews that truth is unbearable. Also they had yet to learn that "the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink, but righteousness, and peace and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Rom. 14:17).
Accordingly they were given to know, through subsequent revelations of the Holy Spirit, that the promised kingdom was of spiritual character, and that the nation to which it was to be given was - not "Israel after the flesh," but - the true "Israel of God."
Furthermore, the question involved "times and seasons" which the Father had put in His own power. It is the Father who bestows the kingdom (Lu. 12:12); and it is the Father who determines the times and seasons, as it is written, "When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son" (Gal. 4:4). Now that "little flock," to which the Father was pleased to give the kingdom, was indeed "Israel"; but the mystery concerning the true "Israel," the flock for which the good Shepherd gave His life, had not as yet been made known to them, "as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" (Eph. 3:1-6).
Also it is to be noted that the "times" of the Gentiles, which had a long course to run, had not yet begun; which is an additional reason why the Lord answered them as He did, thereby putting aside the subject of the bestowal of the kingdom, and fixing their minds upon the coming of the Holy Spirit, who would make the whole matter clear.
Finally, seeing there is but one kingdom in God's purpose, and but one Israel, the passage we are considering (Acts 1:1-6) cannot be interpreted in such manner as lend support to the nationalistic dreams of "Israel after the flesh."​

I guess if dispys can cut short/delay Dan 9, so also can they cut off and delay the kingdom of God. This cutting off of the kingdom of God seems to be nothing new. Matt 23:13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. I John 4:1-3. Titus 1:14

I'd invite you to read more of Philip Mauro as a alternative to futurist dispensationalism, especially his work "The hope of Israel, What is it?"
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1922_mauro_hope-israel.html

 

[Terral]

Hi Notrash:

Notrash >> Thanks for your perspective. Yes, we disagree, Does not Acts 15:16,17 indicate that the Davidic tabernacle is being fulfilled in the kingdom of God/heaven that began at Pentecost.?

We disagree. Where did you ever get the idea that the Kingdom of God began at Pentecost? Peter, John and James are still offering the “good news concerning the kingdom of God” (Acts 8:12) to Israel ONLY (Acts 2:14, 22, 36) at Pentecost. This is the ‘third leg’ of that offering of the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc.) beginning with John the Baptist (Matt. 3:1-6) and Christ following behind him. God offered the “Gospel of God” (Mark 1:14-15) through the Father (John the Baptist = “from God” = John 1:6), and the Son (Jesus Christ = as the Son) and then for the third and final time beginning at Pentecost through the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1+). This “Gospel of the Kingdom” was going to the WHOLE WORLD (Matt. 24:14), but “beginning at Jerusalem.” Luke 24:47. The “beginning at Jerusalem” part ‘began’ with Peter and the Twelve right here in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost. The Kingdom of God on earth was still “at hand” (Matt. 3:2, 4:17, 10:7), but Israel ‘as a nation’ was still required to ACCEPT IT. That is why Peter told Israel to “Repent . . . that your sins may be wiped away (water baptism) . . . in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He (God) may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you . . .”. (Acts 3:19+20). Peter was looking for Israel to ‘accept’ the “Gospel of the Kingdom,” so Christ would return.

God sent John the Baptist and Christ and the Holy Spirit for the Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) in three consecutive offerings of the Gospel of the Kingdom. There is no Kingdom of God ‘beginning’ on the Day of Pentecost and where you guys get that idea is beyond me. Our “His BODY” Church (Col. 1:24) began with the Apostle Paul on the Road To Damascus (Acts 9:15) some seven chapters AFTER Pentecost. The “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) was given TO PAUL FOR US. Eph. 3:1-3, Col. 1:24-27. Peter is still adding to a “Kingdom Dispensation” and the Kingdom “church” (Matt. 16:16-19, 18:17-18) started by John the Baptist and Christ in the Four Gospels. Judas was ‘out’ and the Eleven chose a replacement from where???

"Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us ALL THE TIME that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us -- beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us -- one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." Acts 1:21+22.

The candidates for Judas’ replacement were taken from the Kingdom CHURCH (Matt. 16:16-19, 18:17-18) and the membership “who have accompanied us ALL THE TIME” since the very beginning with the Baptism of John! The exact same “Kingdom of God” is being preached as “at hand” for Israel of the flesh right here at Pentecost that John the Baptist and Christ preached FROM DAY ONE. The ‘new’ aspect is that the Kingdom Disciples can ‘now’ lay hands for the third and final “baptism of the Holy Spirit” that only began at Pentecost for the ‘Gospel of the Kingdom,’ which has been a ‘gospel in transition.’ John the Baptist (Matt. 3:1-6, Mark 1:4+5, etc.) could not preach a baptism in the name of the Son (Matt. 28:19 = name of the Lord Jesus = Acts 8:16, 19:5), because He had yet to appear to anyone! John the Baptist passed the Holy Spirit to Christ at the Jordan (Matt. 3:15+16), which Christ did for the Twelve, as promised (John 16:7), on the Day of Pentecost. Peter and all the members of the growing “Kingdom Dispensation” are simply adding to that number at Pentecost, which they would continue to do throughout Acts going “to the circumcised” (Gal. 2:9).

The next problem with your statement above pertains to the “Tabernacle of David” being fulfilled beginning at Pentecost. Again, there is NOTHING like that anywhere in Scripture. Paul was sent by a ‘revelation’ to ‘submit the gospel I preach among the Gentiles’ AND in ‘fear of failure’ (Galatians 2:2) and things were not going well in the “debate” in Jerusalem. Acts 15:1-5. Peter then stood up and told his “Cornelius” story from Acts 10 where the Holy Spirit had fallen upon the Gentiles without water baptism. That was a ‘sign’ to the Kingdom Church in Jerusalem that Paul’s “mystery among the Gentiles” (Col. 1:27) was something totally NEW. James listens to Peter and makes the last mention of him in Acts as “Simeon,” saying,

"Simeon has related how God FIRST concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.” Acts 15:14.

That Gentile dominant ‘people for His name’ is the “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) still in the earth today as we speak! Peter’s Kingdom “Bride” was “cut off” (Rev. 20:4) with the ‘dispensational shift’ taking place right here in the Book of Acts. James is acknowledging this ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ will come FIRST and precede what follows, as the Kingdom Dispensation will ‘decrease’ (John 3:30) like John the Baptist passing the Holy Spirit to Christ. Christ had to go away and ‘decrease’ for the Holy Spirit offering of the Gospel of the Kingdom to ‘increase’ on the Day of Pentecost in the very same way. James’ prophecy about the ‘Tabernacle of David’ is given in THIS context of the ‘Body of Christ’ being gathered FIRST, to then say,

“AFTER THESE THINGS I will return, AND I will rebuild the Tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and will restore it, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.” Acts 15:16-18.

The rebuilding of the “Tabernacle of David” is part of the coming “Kingdom Dispensation” under Elijah returning to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11). Again, why you errantly want to start the restoration of the Tabernacle of David AT PENTECOST (Heh) I have no clue. James is even prophesying about that some 20 YEARS LATER and even then places that restoration “After These Things” of today. Peter also says that heaven must hold Christ by the hand, until the ‘times of restoration of ALL THINGS’ (Acts 3:21) spoken by the OT Prophets. The ‘prophet’ of his prophecies (Acts 3:19-26) is none other than Elijah coming to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11), which includes the ‘Tabernacle of David’ that fell way back in Genesis 3 with the fall! What you have in Acts 15 (Gal. 2) is a meeting between two totally different Administrations (Kingdom = Peter, Grace = Paul) with Paul saying “Leave my dispensation of God’s grace Gentiles and Jews ALONE.”

Notrash >> But I guess if dispys can falsely cut short/delay Dan 9, so also can they cut off and delay the kingdom of God.

Cut short and delay Daniel 9? What does that mean? The events of Daniel 9 are still FUTURE with the Messiah (David) being ‘cut off’ (Dan. 9:26) very near the ‘end of the age’ (Dan. 11:11-13). The antichrist is the ‘prince’ coming to set up his “abomination of desolation” (Dan. 11:31, 12:11), just as Christ also predicts is an ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) event in Matthew 24:15. The “Tabernacle of David” will have been already restored by Elijah some 1000 years EARLIER, when he was installed as ‘prince’ (Eze. 34:23-25) to start the “Day of the Lord” that follows this current mystery time never seen by ANY of the OT prophets.

The Gentile dominate ‘Body of Christ’ is being fashioned right this moment in the ‘red’ mystery time, but “After These Things” the Kingdom Dispensation will see the restoration of the ‘Tabernacle Of David’ in the light blue “Day of the Lord.” Our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) STARTS that 1000 Years, and the events of Christ’s Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24) END the same 1000 Year Period. You have the Tabernacle of David being restored some 2000 years too early. :0) The antichrist (Daniel’s evil ‘prince&#8217 comes to make THAT restored kingdom desolate only after the 1000 years is over in the dark blue Tribulation period. Your Bible has a ‘blood witness’ (Pauline Epistles) describing ‘today’ AND a ‘water witness’ (Kingdom Epistles) predicting the upcoming 1000 Years Day of the Lord coming “After These Things” of today.

There is an early AND late rains (James 5:7) Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) and Elijah is still coming for the gathering and perfecting of the ‘late rains’ part during the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. People errantly think we are approaching the ‘end of the age,’ when in fact we are really coming up to the START of the 1000 Years Day of the Lord where the Tabernacle of David is restored. There is NOTHING like that in the world today, because that restoration process has yet to even begin.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Notrash]

Hi Terrel,
It's obvious again to see where you stand. Your entire system is based on dispensational futurism. Key texts for the dispy/futurists are Dan 9 which others find fully fulfilled within the first century, Romans 11, 2Tim 2:15, based on the words that the KJV erroneously give to the text, and the false interpretation within the context of the rest of 2 Tim, and as you mentioned 2 Cor 5:16.

I think that your so fully ingrained into your system that it will not benefit to make you aware of other interpretations that fully fulfill Daniel 9 within the first century. However, if your interested, surf some of the websites at preteristarchive.com and historicist.com. In particular Philip Mauro's commentaries at http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/mauro-philip_lawyer.html
and in particular "The hope of Israel, what is it?
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1922_mauro_hope-israel.html
The dispensational futurists ignore scripture that contradict their scheme and thus do not incorporate the whole council of God or base themselves on Christ's teachings. Thus they are a house built on the sand.

Fut/Dispys natural outcome is to support a future earthly (worldly) kingdom of God. The worldy kingdom perspective also infiltrates the kingdom of God/heaven (christianity) today with worldly perspectives. I've been there, done that. I've been around the deadness and emptyness of the religion and the people of dispensationalism.

What does Dispensationalism do with EZ 12 where it says that all prophecies and visions will have short term (not long term) fulfillment?
Answer?...................

What does dispensationalism do with the various teachings that say that national Israel had been given a writ of divorce from God even though she was constantly called to repentence but did not? Jer 3:8.
And that Gods spirit will not always strive with (natural) Israel? Deut. 4:26; 6:14, 15; 8:20; Josh. 23:15,16
Answer.........?
This is what Christ and Daniel refer to as the end of the age.... roughly from 30 AD to 70 AD.
On and on we could go, but I think your more interested in promoting and continually ASSERTING your belief system and your charts rather than being open to learning or acknowledging any errors of their root.

If however you are, we could begin with Daniel 9 which I had asked your position in a different thread to which you never responded with an answer. Now it is clear where you stand on that and also the reasons for your futurist interpretation "system".
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/daniel/daniel-09.htm
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1921_mauro_seventy-weeks/ms-01.html


Your charts are impressive, but to me most of them (not all) are the outcome of futuristic dispensationalism and of erroneously interpreting and dividing God's word, rather than being diligent and steadfast in plowing the straight line, or making a straight cut or sailing a straight course of Faith in God's WORD.

John 5

39 “You search (Study of KJV 2 Tim 2:15 ) the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; (ye think ye are saved by having the "right divisions" and thus exclude the teachings of Christ) it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41 “I do not receive glory from men; 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43 “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another (show yourself approved unto other men) and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? 45 “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Furthermore, you yourself have brought upon yourself the accusation of teaching unsound doctrine (I John 4:1-3) with your interpretation of I Cor 5:16. And you have continued to show your spiritual immaturity by how you have continually berated myself and others and promoted yourself and your teachngs in other posts. Sometimes the venom of hatred and arrogance drips right from your words.

Some may be interested in them and you may find that they better fit into unorthodox theology section or else starting a complete thread of their own within this section of dispensationalism titled Terrals charts and dispensational teachings.

However, having once listened to dispy teaching and been close to assymilating it into my person, I understand the challenge and "work" given by the religious teachers of our day to 'rightly divide", (rather than 'plow a straight furrow' or 'set a straight course'.) thus I have compassion and understanding of where you are coming from.

According to His will, may the God the Creator of Heaven and Earth and all that is in them grant grace unto repentence to either of us as to any beliefs that are not in HIS will and HIS Way.

I do feel the time is close to not respond to your threads if they once again become berating and self righteous in pride and self approval of 'rightly dividing'.

Not Rash, or No Trash.

12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 

[Notrash]

I disagree I condsider that the apostles were asking Him if this was the time when He was going to set up His kingdom, that is His earthly kingdom. Jesus indicated that it was not to happen at that time, yet He did not indicate that they misunderstood the fact that there would be a kingdom. Each and every reference to Jesus as "son of David" has not only messianic overtones but also overtones of the kingdom messiah will set up. This all in fulfillment of the promices given to ethnic Israel through all the prophets.

I'd invite you to read Philip Mauro's book (the hope of Israel) online.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1922_mauro_hope-israel.html
In particular, there is a lengthy section on the tabernacle of David and it's rebuilding. http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1922_mauro_hope-israel.html#CHAPTER_XVIII

I think I've covered most of the original question about the temple of EZ to the best of my present knowledge. I know it didn't answer your questions the way you set them out for proclaiming your position, but I learned more about defending my beliefs in studying it.

Most of dispensationalism allows for Man to sit in the seat of Moses as the Pharisees did and interpret and diseminate scripture as they see fit rather than submitting to the Lordship of Christ. This is one reason it had been becoming more and more popular.

Not Rash... or No trash.

 

[Jerrysch]

I'd invite you to read Philip Mauro's book (the hope of Israel) online.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1922_mauro_hope-israel.html
In particular, there is a lengthy section on the tabernacle of David and it's rebuilding. http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1922_mauro_hope-israel.html#CHAPTER_XVIII

I
Not Rash... or No trash.

Well you have bee unfront with me through this conversation so I will be so as well. I have no intention of reading Mr Mauro's works, if I did so it would be to stand against what he presents. I was in the a-mil camp a few years ago and by the grace of God, I now can see the error of its way. The major problem I see in it now is the abandonment of a literal hermenuntic when issues of Israel's future come into view. Yet I thank you for your interest.

 

[Notrash]

Well you have bee unfront with me through this conversation so I will be so as well. I have no intention of reading Mr Mauro's works, if I did so it would be to stand against what he presents. I was in the a-mil camp a few years ago and by the grace of God, I now can see the error of its way. The major problem I see in it now is the abandonment of a literal hermenuntic when issues of Israel's future come into view. Yet I thank you for your interest.

Yes, I can understand how when a system focuses on being amillenial, premillenial, pre-tribulation, mid-trib or any other perspective, that it runs into molding scripture to fit it's theme. I think that is what I like in seeing various interpretation systems in terms of futurists/historicist or preterist. I used to be simple a 'jesus freak', trusting his Words and his Word, having the fruits of the Spirit, assurance of Salvation in answered prayer etc., but then went to a year of bible college of 'knowledge' and was taught that His words weren't meant for this "dispensation". Well that confusion went it's fruitless course including a falling away. A few years ago I stumbled onto the discussions of the Scofield Ref bible and information about dispensationalism, beginnings of pre-trib rapture theology and then onto discovering pretertism. What I like more about these 3 ideologys is that they focus on the principles of interpretation rather than on the theology of the outcome. Thus I am leaning more and more towards pretertism which seeks to read and understand the scriptures specifically to whom they were written to and then make appropriate application into todays age rather than to interpret and apply them first by a theological bias.
I think that the key is to find solid ground of fundamentals and principles of interpretation. Being connected to the HEAD of Christ is the most important key. May the living God direct your searches in accordance with how you and I submit to His will and seek to glorify Him.

I guess I've written enough for awhile.

Not rash or No trash.

 

[Terral]

Hi Notrash:

Notrash >> It's obvious again to see where you stand. Your entire system is based on dispensational futurism.

My what? There are no Dispensationalist Futurists quoted anywhere in any of my work. I answered your work in Post #102 with arguments using Scripture in Post #103 and now you have no reply. :0) Notrash characterizing my view as “dispensational futurism” (Heh) is calling me names without addressing my arguments standing against yours. Now I am supposed to answer your objections line-by-line again for the benefit of our readers.

Notrash >> Key texts for the dispy/futurists are Dan 9 which others find fully fulfilled within the first century, Romans 11, 2Tim 2:15, based on the words that the KJV erroneously give to the text, and the false interpretation within the context of the rest of 2 Tim, and as you mentioned 2 Cor 5:16.

Where do we begin addressing all of the fallacies contained in your single statement? Daniel is describing “end of the age” (Dan. 12:11-13) events in chapter 9, 11 and 12. How do we know for sure? The ‘prince’ cutting off the Messiah (David = Eze. 34:23-25) sets up his ‘abomination of desolation’ (Dan. 11:31, 12:11), just before the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) and just 3.5 years before Christ’s glorious return in Matthew 24:3 – 31. The idea that Daniel’s “end of the age” prophecies have already been fulfilled is PREPOSTEROUS, because the Gospel of Matthew was written around 60 AD. That work was not even canonized, before ‘you say’ the Daniel's ‘end of the age’ events were fulfilled. Please allow me to remind you that Full Preterism is not permitted on this Board, because that is a bunch of NONSENSE. :0) Daniel and Matthew 24 read right along with Revelation that was written AFTER ‘you say’ those things were fulfilled. The common mistake of these so-called Bible Prophecy Experts is they have no room in their broken theologies for a Heavenly Messiah (Christ = Lord God of Gen. 2:4+) AND an Earthly Messiah (David = Jer. 30:9, Eze. 34:23-25). The “Messiah” (Dan. 9:26) being ‘cut off’ is David, who is installed for the second time “forever” (Eze. 37:24-28) in the New Earth of Revelation 21:1+. The Daniel’s prince cannot appear and cut off anything or set up his ‘abomination of desolation,’ until the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) goes to the WHOLE WORLD. We do not even preach that Gospel today (differences here = http://www.christianforums.com/t5379956.html ), as Israel as a nation never even accepted that as the “Gospel of God” (Mark 1:14-15). Also, giving Romans 11 or Daniel 9 as references really does not mean anything.

Notrash >> I think that your so fully ingrained into your system that it will not benefit to make you aware of other interpretations that fully fulfill Daniel 9 within the first century.

Knowledge makes arrogant (1Cor. 8:1), because all the other probabilities have been eliminated. :0) The idea that the ‘prince’ cutting off the Messiah (David) has already appeared is foolishness. He is the “son of destruction” (2Thes. 2:3+4) and the “Beast” of Revelation 13:1-4, 11-18. The Book of Revelation was not even written before ‘you’ say those things were fulfilled. Those believing God’s ‘prophesies’ are future simply take Him at His Word.

Notrash >> However, if your interested, surf some of the websites at preteristarchive.com and historicist.com.

Heh . . . No sir. I am interested in your interpretations of Scripture apart from the nonsense of mere men. If Notrash wants to prove Daniel 9 is already fulfilled, then this is your Grand Opportunity. :0)

Notrash >> The dispensational futurists ignore scripture that contradict their scheme and thus do not incorporate the whole council of God or base themselves on Christ's teachings. Thus they are a house built on the sand.

What Dispy’s think is far beyond the context of your statements in Post #102 that have been shown FALSE already since you have no Scriptural reply. Riding this “dispensational futurists” horsey is not going to ‘quote me >>’ and submit your rebuttals using Scripture.

Notrash >> Fut/Dispys natural outcome is to support a future earthly (worldly) kingdom of God.

Christ taught Israel about the Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven.” Matthew 6:10. When the disciples asked about Christ restoring the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6), He said, “It is not for you to know TIMES OR EPOCHS which the Father has fixed by His own authority . . .” (Acts 1:7). The Apostle Paul connects those ‘times and epochs’ to the upcoming “Day of the Lord,” saying,

“Now as to the times and the epochs (restoration of the Kingdom to Israel), brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the Day of the Lord WILL COME just like a thief in the night.” 1Thessalonians 5:1+2.

Scripture just told you that the ‘restoration of the Kingdom to Israel’ WILL COME with the “Day of the Lord” like a thief in the night. Jesus Christ knows exactly how that 1000 Year (2Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord” (2Peter 3:10) WILL END. That is what His Olivet Discourse IS ALL ABOUT. However, knowing the score at the end of the age does NOT tell you ‘when’ that game begins. We are still living in the time leading up to the “Day of the Lord” COMING (2Thes. 2:2), where the Kingdom will be restored to Israel. That earthly kingdom is described in Ezekiel 47+48 with the Temple being restored in Ezekiel 40+. That is the same Temple used by David THE MESSIAH for the regular sin offerings.

"On that day the prince (Messiah of Dan. 9:26) shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.” Ezekiel 45:22.

Anyone trying to force our Lord Jesus Christ into becoming that ‘prince’ must explain why He is making regular sin offerings for Himself! :0) Again, your so-called Bible Experts do not yet see an ‘Earthly Messiah’ for the Kingdom of God ‘on earth AS IT IS in heaven.’ Jesus Christ told Pilate that His kingdom is not of this world or even of this realm (John 18:36). Paul writes,

“The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His Heavenly Kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.” 2Timothy 4:18.

“For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the Kingdom of His Beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” Colossians 1:13-14.

The ‘domain of darkness’ is this entire universe held together “IN” Christ! Colossians 1:16-17. Jesus Christ is the Lord (Rom. 10:9). Right or Wrong? Right! Okay then. Heaven is His throne and this earth is HIS FOOTSTOOL. Isaiah 66:1. My interpretations are based upon what GOD SAYS and not upon the speculations of men.

Notrash >> The worldy kingdom perspective also infiltrates the kingdom of God/heaven (christianity) today with worldly perspectives. I've been there, done that. I've been around the deadness and emptyness of the religion and the people of dispensationalism.

And that includes the speculations and mere assertions of Notrash. :0) Either ‘quote me >>’ and offer your opposing views using Scripture, or allow all of my supported statements to remain standing. I can assure you that the Dispy’s do NOT number Terral among them, because our interpretations of God’s Word vary greatly.

Notrash >> What does Dispensationalism do with EZ 12 where it says that all prophecies and visions will have short term (not long term) fulfillment?

If you wish to make a point from Ezekiel 12, then by all means use this opportunity. To speculate that ‘all prophecies’ (Heh) have a short term fulfillment is simply laughable. Daniel connects the setting up of the ‘abomination of desolation’ (Dan. 11:31, 12:11) to the END OF THE AGE (Dan. 12:13), just like our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:3+15. We are still living in the same ‘evil age’ (Gal. 1:4) from when Daniel was walking around and even Adam in Genesis 2:7+. The Lord God (Christ) Himself prophesied that the serpent’s seed would be bruised on the head by the heel of the woman’s seed (Gen. 3:15), and yet Satan remains the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3-4) even today. Paul writes prophecy about our ‘body of Christ,’ saying,

“The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.” Romans 16:20.

Please try to explain your man made axiom that ‘all prophecies’ have a ‘short term fulfillment.’ :0) Your testimony reeks of Full Preterism, which was highlighted by your “futurist” lingo. NoTrash appears to be carrying a ton of trash from my perspective of having dealt with the Preterist monsters from TheologyWeb.com.

Notrash >> Answer?

Do not condescend to me partner. Either try to defend your bogus comments or be silent and appear wise (Prov. 17:28).

Notrash >> What does dispensationalism do with the various teachings that say that national Israel had been given a writ of divorce from God even though she was constantly called to repentance but did not? Jer 3:8. (snip = getting too far from topic)

God’s calling and promises to His Chosen Race (Israel) are irrevocable. Romans 11:29. The whole House of Israel will be raised up from their graves and led into the Land of Jacob (Eze. 37:11-12), according to the will and power of Almighty God.

Notrash >> Your charts are impressive, but to me most of them (not all) are the outcome of futuristic dispensationalism and of erroneously interpreting and dividing God's word, rather than being diligent and steadfast in plowing the straight line, or making a straight cut or sailing a straight course of Faith in God's WORD.

Once again you are speaking in generalities using Notrash’s unsupported opinion. Stop grandstanding and try to defend yourself using Scripture. GL.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Notrash]

Hi Notrash:

Please allow me to remind you that Full Preterism is not permitted on this Board,

But partial preterism is and so is historicism. :0)

The common mistake of these so-called Bible Prophecy Experts is they have no room for a Heavenly Messiah (Christ = Lord God of Gen. 2:4+) AND an Earthly Messiah (David = Jer. 30:9, Eze. 34:23-25).

This concept of a resurrected David is a new idea to me also that you are presenting although I think it is the eventual outcome of seperate gospels and the dispensaional system and the restoration of natural Israel whom Jeremiah was told that He had divorced. (Jer 3:8)

The “Messiah” (Dan. 9:26) being ‘cut off’ is David, who is installed for the second time “forever” (Eze. 37:24-28)

How do you date the coming of your Messiah (David) in accordance with Daniels timeline of 70 weeks? I suppose that is Christ as a heavenly type of earthly King David when he came into the 'city of David'?? Wrong, Christ is always the reality and David, Moses, Elijah and others are the type.You see David Physically resurrected (raised up) where most see 'raised up' as an anti-type in the reality of Christ.

The idea that the ‘prince’ cutting off the Messiah (David) has already appeared is foolishness

.

I never said that the "prince" cuts off the Messiah David. That is your interpretation and stems from the futurist camps. The Messiah is cut off, but not for himself. The PEOPLE (romans)of the prince to come.(Titus).will make (MADE) the city Desolate due to the abominations (LIES) of the Israelites.

If you wish to make a point from Ezekiel 12, then by all means use this opportunity. To speculate that ‘all prophecies’ (Heh) have a short term fulfillment is simply laughable.
Please try to explain your man made axiom that ‘all prophecies’ have a ‘short term fulfillment.’ :0)

Rom 9:28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth." :0)

Ez 12:21Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
22"Son of man, what is this (Z)proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, 'The (AA)days are long and every (AB)vision fails'?
23"Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "(AC)The days draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision.
24"For there will no longer be any (AD)false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel.
25"For I the LORD will speak, and whatever (AE)word I speak will be performed It will no longer be delayed, for in (AF)your days, O (AG)rebellious house, I will speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord GOD.'"
26Furthermore, the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
27"Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, 'The vision that he sees is for (AH)many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.' 28"Therefore say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed,"'" declares the Lord GOD.

I think this section of scripture is self explanitory. Since it was written before the vision of the temple, obviously the vision of the Temple is included in the visions that will have short term fullfillment.
God judged the rebellious house with the end of their age and the destruction of Jerusalem the visions and prophecies of the times of the prophets of exiles can also be summed up in the time of Christ.
Matt 23:29-36

NoTrash appears to be carrying a ton of trash from from TheologyWeb.com.

Not Rash know's nothing of theologyweb. :0)

Do not condescend to me partner.

I assert that you teach the spirit of the anti-christ (1 john 4:1-3) because you shut up the kingdom of God in Christ, and seperate the Gospel of Christ from something else, thus I'm not your partner.

God’s calling and promises to His Chosen Race (Israel) are irrevocable. Romans 11:29.

(thought you said including Romans 11 was irrelevant above, but here you use it :0)

You use Romans 11 again out of context and wrongly interpreted . Romans 11 is very tightly connected to Rom 9 and 10 and is understood only within that context. Romans 9 talks about the calling and election of God to both salvation and to wrath.
Paul has established a difference between Israel of the flesh and Isreal of the saved remnant. In Romans 9:6 He declares the saved remnant to be all Isreal. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel: and in Galatians 6:6 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Jacob was Given the name Isreal Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Compare John 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Thus, in Jeremiah 30, when he is called Jacob, is this Jacob who has already recieved the name Israel and is part of the one gospel of Christ? .. or is he the Jacob before he wrestled with the Angel.?

Romans 10 has Paul refering to Moses
"I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation."
This is part of the context of Romans 11.

Cant do a commentary on Rom 11 in a 15000 word thread. To summarize Romans 11, He is saying that both those 'jews' of faith and those of the flesh are part of the 'nation' or people of Israel, then in vs 26, Some of "them" (jews) are enemies of the gospel, (Mt 23:24) called unto destruction, others are of the elect (such as Paul) and have become believers. Other jews yet will be made jealous by the fullness of the Gentiles who have begun partaking of the root of the olive tree and they will come to Christ through the testimony and ingrafting of the other nations. All flesh will be (are) counted as 'disobedient' so that God can have mercy on all nations. Compare Rom 11:32 and John 3:18.
Romans 11 is almost as poetry. There are similar openings of stanza's in Vs 1, and vs 11, and other similarities in the style of other verses. Seeing and understanding this is helpfull in the interpretation.

The whole House of Israel will be raised up from their graves and led into the Land of Jacob (Eze. 37:11-12), according to the will and power of Almighty God.

Does your interpretation of Gods will and power go against his word?
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Your statements are qualified by EZ 12.21ff. and Jeremiah 3:8, and the other verses that you clipped off because they didn't fit your perspective. Deut. 4:26; 6:14, 15; 8:20; Josh. 23:15,16
If it would be meant that natural Israelites are hardened until a future time when they will all be resurrected from the dead into a new Davidic kingdom, then there is no reason whatsoever for Paul to wish that he himself were accused and cut off for his brethens sake. Rom 9:1-5 and there is no reason for Paul to wish them to come to Salvation.
Romans 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Your interpretation of Rom 11 would have the restoration of natural Israel as being MUCH, MUCH better in their Davidic kingdom than in this present age. (How much more their fullness) So why evangelize to them? In fact, we should all convert as quickly as possible. It would be less fearful to join them than live with Jesus Christ as LORD and opposing the jews .


[/quote]
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: [fn10]
"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth


If what you say will be, let it be so, I don't see it although I'm getting an understanding of your ultra-literal roots of your perspective. Your style is similar to the cults who Present a doctrine or theorem and then put scripture behind. That scripture is sometimes taken out of context, sometimes misinterpreted or most often does not take into account the whole council of God.

I will not continue addressing or responding to your posts. It is not due to defeat, but due to time constraints and also I seen enough now to unterstand your perspective. We still didn't deal with Danial 9, due to shortage in space, but I'm seeing that your understanding it as a literal Davidic Kingdom rather than the ingrafting of all nations into the bounty that God prepared. If you truly seek Him who comes in the name of the Lord (Mt 23:29) I'm positive God will meet your in your seeking and enable you to see the one Everlasting Eternal Gospel of God, and of Christ of the flesh and of the Cross. As it is, you seek as a work, and not by faith., just as the jews of Romans 9 and 10.