Pre-Mil Only The Messiah Is Coming ...

[Ronald]

Dear Ronald,

1. As to the first question, you can find information in my replies to the Mr.Dougg questions. I suppose, that if the thorough interpretation of the Nicene Creed is not important in your christian life, the concept of the "Annointed One ben Josef" is not important for you. OK. I hope, that in any case you consider me as the brother in Christ as I consider you. Thank you

2. Thank you very much for your answer on the second question.
>Russia has an interest in Iran.
This interpretation of the close relations of Russia with Iran is unfortunately typical and leads to the conclusion that Russia is the "Magog" country. But I'd like to say to you, that history of the relations between Russia and Iran is not the history of the "happy family"

I'd like you to recommend very interesting article concerning this question
http://mostlikelymostdangerous.com/...iran-build-own-satellite-observation-systems/

I found it in Koinonia Institute Research eNews August 31, 2015

Your opinion concerning this article will be very interesting for me.

Thank you in advance
Sincerely yours,
Onisim

Again, the Messiah ben Josef and Messiah ben David are one in the same. Jews may believe differently but not Messianic Jews. Jesus came as the suffering Lamb and will come soon as the Conquering Lion Who will judge the world. The point is, I think it is significant that two Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi said the Messiah is coming soon. One of them named him Yehoshua - (Jesus) as well. That is from God, since they don't believe in Jesus.
Of course you are a brother, I consider anyone who puts their faith in Christ as a brother or sister. We are all born again (John 3:3) believers, whether Catholic, Protestant, non-denominational, who believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures. We also believe the Bible as the inherent Word of God.
I believe the Nicene Creed as fundamental as well.
My opinion about the article describing agreements between Russia and Iran to build a satellite scheduled for launch in 2018 is that this satellite is irrelevant . Russia sent nuclear scientists to Iran in the early 90's to start their nuclear program, so this is no surprise to me. I just don't think we will even make it that far. I think the GT will start soon.
Actually, since the Deal seems to be done according to the votes just in, I think Israel will now act alone to bomb their nuclear sites with whatever bunker busters they have. They need the 30 ton ones and I thought I read the US sold them some recently. ???

 

[Onisim]

Dear Another Lazarus
>he may be a mini antichrist cause
>the real antichrist come from
>the kingdom of religion
What is the kingdom of Religion? Do you mean the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church?

>Rev 17:1 the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

Does the Great harlot sit upon the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church now? Does "the purple and scarlet colour" mean the cardinal's red mantle? Sometimes I heard this interpretation of the Revelation in the protestant churches.

But the orthodox christians believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures and the Nicene Creed.

I'm not insisting on the doctrine that the great Moscow princes considered themselves as the persons with the special spiritual relationships with the Archangel Michael. This doctrine helps me to understand Russian history. Nothing more. Unfortunately, I've found, that very often the most religious thing in the protestant churches is to proclaim that other confessions are religious.

Thank you!

Sincerely yours,
Onisim

 

[Onisim]

Dear Ronald,

>Of course you are a brother, I consider anyone who puts their faith in Christ as a brother or sister.
Thank you!

Frankly speaking the second question is more interesting for me. I'm discussing with my friends the question is the doctrine "Russia is the country of Gog prince of Magog" actual in the American christian life now. They say, that it is out of date doctrine, I have another opinion. So, your opinion is very important for me.

Ruhollah Khomeini called the USA the "Great Satan" and the USSR the "Lesser Satan". I suppose that the real attitude of Iran to our countries was not changed significantly. USA is still "Great Satan", Russia is still "Lesser Satan". All these "nuclear relations" between Russia and Iran were established because of the bad economical situation in Russia in 90th. They cannot be used as the argument that Russia is the country of Magog.


Sincerely yours,
Onisim

 

[Douggg]

Dear Douggg.
For me the main point is that "the analysis of the old Russian icons can reveal, that Russian princes and kings in ~ 14-17th centuries considered themselves as the incarnation of the Michael" as I've wrote before.

Even so, does the bible bear any relation to their claims. A quick analysis would be what did the apostles say in regards to Michael incarnating anyone?

>You seem to be taking from Judaism sources their idea of a messiah ben Joseph.

The only relation with Judaism is that there are two kinds of leaders: leader and leader of the leaders OK. I promise to forget the terms "Messiah ben Josef" and "Messiah ben David". Let us use the terms:
1.King of the earth (incarnation of the Michael)

Jesus said he was both David's root and his branch. But we don't read anything similar regarding Michael.

In Psalm 2.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

I am pretty sure that is not talking about Michael.

2.The prince of the kings of the earth (The Lord Jesus Christ )
You can classified the Revelation verses in two different groups. One group(a) is related with the King of the Earth ("he that overcometh", incarnation of the Michael), another group with the "The Lord Jesus Christ "Prince of the kings of the earth"
a. King of the earth
"And he shall rule them with a rod of iron even as I (Jesus Christ) received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.(Rev. 2:26-28)"
b.The Lord Jesus Christ Prince of the kings of the earth "...as I received of my Father(Rev. 2:26-28)"
a.King of the earth
"...mighty angel (my interpretation is Michael) with a little book open... (Revelation 10:1,2)
b.The Lord Jesus Christ Prince of the kings of the earth ".. the book with the seven seals." (Revelation 5:5)
and etc. But now, the topic of our discussion slightly differs from the topic of the thread. If it is still interesting for you I can continue

I did a bible word search on Michael. His name appears 15 times in the bible, of which, only 2 times in the new testament.
Jesus's name appears 942 times in the bible. So for Michael to be the king of the earth - there is not very much mention of him.

The mighty angel in Revelation 10, may be Michael. It sounds like a reasonable guess, imo.

In any case thank you for your interest to my posts. I'd like to share with you the main reason that I've jumped into this forum. I have discussed with my friend the reason of the bad relations of the USA and Russia now. And I've said, that one of the main reasons is that American protestant believers consider Russia as country of Magog. He said to me, that it is out of date point of view. We took the NIV Study Bible and found, that it is not correct to say, that Russia is the country of Magog. Moreover there some resources where protestant believers prove, that this doctrine contradicts to the real situation, for example in the Koinonia Institute eNews I've found:
http://mostlikelymostdangerous.com/...iran-build-own-satellite-observation-systems/

However, I know that Russian protestant pastors regret often (I don't have any official documents concerning these regrets, please, believe me ), that they cannot gather enough money in Amercian churches, because believers consider
Russia as the Magog country and there is no need to help country of Magog So, I've said "money talks, bullsheet walks". That is the main argument, that Russia is considered as Magog country by simple american believers.

What about you. Is Russia the country of "Gog, prince of Magog"?

Well, you may have something about Americans view of Russia as a bad guy image because of Gog/Magog prophecy. Right now in America people are being asked to give to every cause; they just don't have the money to go around. Suppose you were an American watching late night TV and an ad comes on, and it is a plea for money to help some 6 or 7 year old kid in rags who doesn't have even clean water to drink, doesn't have anything, in a rotten situation, in some third world country - who are you going to send money to? To help that kid or some church in Russia? Do you have clean drinking water?

Is Russia part of the Gog/Magog invasion? Yes, imo, no doubt about it. America, on the other hand, 7 years later may, most likely even, in the end, be aligned with the beast in Revelation, and her armies will be destroyed when they assemble with the rest of the world's army to fight Jesus.

Where will the Russian Christians and American Christians be when all these things happen? - hopefully with Jesus, not present here on earth. Look up your redemption draws near.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The messiah of the unsaved is the antithesis of christ ..

 

[zippy2]

Again, the Messiah ben Josef and Messiah ben David are one in the same. Jews may believe differently but not Messianic Jews. Jesus came as the suffering Lamb and will come soon as the Conquering Lion Who will judge the world. The point is, I think it is significant that two Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi said the Messiah is coming soon. One of them named him Yehoshua - (Jesus) as well. That is from God, since they don't believe in Jesus.
Of course you are a brother, I consider anyone who puts their faith in Christ as a brother or sister. We are all born again (John 3:3) believers, whether Catholic, Protestant, non-denominational, who believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures. We also believe the Bible as the inherent Word of God.
I believe the Nicene Creed as fundamental as well.
My opinion about the article describing agreements between Russia and Iran to build a satellite scheduled for launch in 2018 is that this satellite is irrelevant . Russia sent nuclear scientists to Iran in the early 90's to start their nuclear program, so this is no surprise to me. I just don't think we will even make it that far. I think the GT will start soon.
Actually, since the Deal seems to be done according to the votes just in, I think Israel will now act alone to bomb their nuclear sites with whatever bunker busters they have. They need the 30 ton ones and I thought I read the US sold them some recently. ???

Sir, you have made more sense to me than anyone on this subject. I will continue reading your posts, with thanks. This looks to be a very busy month...I hope it is busy only because we are dutifully watching like good watchmen on the walls, and nothing happens. God be with you.
Zippy2

 

[Ronald]

Sir, you have made more sense to me than anyone on this subject. I will continue reading your posts, with thanks. This looks to be a very busy month...I hope it is busy only because we are dutifully watching like good watchmen on the walls, and nothing happens. God be with you.
Zippy2

Thanks, God bless you too

 

[Ronald]

What fruit is that ?


.

Well, "by their fruit you will know them". This applies both to good fruit (of the Spirit) and bad fruit (of the dark evil spiritual forces - Satan and his demons) How a person lives, the principals he demonstrates, his actions, deeds usually reflect his beliefs. Christians do demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit: faith, joy, gentleness, kindness, goodness, love, patience, self-control and peace; but they obviously stumble occasionally and are a work in progress. One may be mature in a few godly qualities but need some work on their patience and self-control - like me. But a person who you can look at and say, they have none of these qualities but more the opposite, then you will know them.

 

[Ronald]

The false messiah is coming ...and false messianic age.. .and it will last for a short season..

He's already here, he's just not identified yet, not until the trumpets start to blow.

 

[zippy2]

He's already here, he's just not identified yet, not until the trumpets start to blow.

Oh man. Please explain that or my head is going to explode.

 

[Ronald]

Oh man. Please explain that or my head is going to explode.

I believe we are in the last generation where we will see the Great Tribulation. Why? I believe that generation started in 1948, when Israel became a nation. Add three score plus ten and you get 70 years. Therefore, the antichrist is here. I also believe that the Beast has taken different forms throughout history, the Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Greek and the Roman. I would also add the Egyptian as well since they enslaved the Jews for 420 years. But now I believe the Beast is taking the form of Islam. Although it is not entirely united, we've seen these Islamic nations go through some serious changes recently within months and years and now Iran and it's nuclear program and ISIS spreading we see the worldwide threat, like a disease spreading in our country and Europe as well.
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (the resurrection) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition... For the mystery of the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."2Thes. 3, 7, 8
So what is the falling away? Falling away from faith in Christ some would say. But these are the ones who never really believed, nor made a commitment to follow Him.
"And for this reason God will send them a strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thes. 2:11, 12
Can you see the lawlessness spreading throughout the world. And can you get a sense that many are following this lie, a strong delusion. This is already in process.

 

[Goatee]

Good post Ronald

 

[zippy2]

Ok thank you. I misread your post. My own fault. I agree with what you just said. I sincerely thought you said 'the messiah was already here'. Can you see why I freaked out? I swear I did not see the 'false' part.
But then, that is how it is going to be for millions who will believe in the false messiah. Maybe the Lord was showing me just how easy it will be? hummmm. Again, Thank you for your posts. God be with you.
Zip

 

[Douggg]

He's already here, he's just not identified yet, not until the trumpets start to blow.

I agree that the person is alive right now on planet earth.

 

[Onisim]

Dear Dougg!

Thank you very much for yours posts!

As far as I understood there are two different statements:
1. Russia is the country of the "Gog prince of Magog"

2. In Jesus Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew, Barbarian, Scythian, American, Russian

Sincerely yours,
Onisim

 

[Douggg]

Dear Dougg!

Thank you very much for yours posts!

As far as I understood there are two different statements:
1. Russia is the country of the "Gog prince of Magog"

2. In Jesus Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew, Barbarian, Scythian, American, Russian

Sincerely yours,
Onisim

Hi Onisim, I did some more research on Messiah ben Joseph with my Jewish (Judaism) contacts, and the concept of Messiah ben Joseph is an origination with rabbi's of the Talmud. In other words, they made it up. They apply Messiah ben Joseph to Zechariah 12:10 - but it is really just trying to supplement the scriptures their own made up notions.

Separately, there is in the bible, the blessing that Jacob made on Joseph of him being a King over his brothers. Which was fulfilled when Joseph was sold into slavery by his bothers, and he ended up being the 2nd most powerful person in Egypt. You know the story.

Prophecies, shadows, patterns relating to Jesus in the Tanach - Joseph because his brothers didn't recognize him at first when they went down to Egypt seeking help is often times thought of a foreshadowing of the Jewish condition leading up to Jesus's Second Coming. Right now, they don't recognize Jesus for who He is.

But there is no such thing a Messiah ben Joseph, except something the Rabbi's of the Talmud created on their own.

 

[dysert]

I agree that the person is alive right now on planet earth.

Wow, Doug, I'm surprised to hear you say that!

 

[Biblicist]

I wondered what that loud noise was a minute or so back.

 

[Onisim]

Dear Dougg,

Thank you so much. I'm really happy to meet you.

So, if the main feature of the Messiah ben Josef of Judaism is that he is suffering Messiah (Zechariah 12:10),
christians cannot adopt this doctrine. The Lord Jesus Christ suffered for our sins, was dead and ressurected.

But in the main verse devoted to Josef "the shepherd, the stone of Israel" (Genesis 49:24) there is no information about his sufferings. There is no need for christians to find "suffering the Annointed One ben Josef"

In fact, the question of the "10 lost tribes" is very interesting for me. Moreover, I've supposed that they could be lost on the territorу which belongs to Russia now. In fact, I'm finding information about "the Annointed one ben Josef" not as the suffering person, but as the King of the 10 lost tribes

Sincerely yours,
Onisim

 

[Onisim]

Dear Michael,

>The messiah of the unsaved is the antithesis of christ
I agree with you.

But I suppose, that Christians can take some useful things from the doctrine concerning "Messiah ben Josef".
Of course Christians cannot use the doctrine about "Messiah ben Josef" as it presented in Judaism, especially
because he is "suffering Messiah" in Judaism.

The useful thing is that there are two kinds of leaders: leader of leaders and leader, king of kings and king.
King is similar to King of the Kings.

For example. Do you remember about the sceptre (rod of iron) and the globus cruciger (morning star) of the Christian emperors? Maybe it's the fullfillment of the Revelation:
26. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28. And I will give him the morning star.
(Revelation 2:26-28)

So, I suppose we can distinguish in the Revelation two kind of persons: Jesus Christ and "he that overcomes".
So, it's looks like Messiah ben David and the Anointed ben Josef. But of course, they are not the same.

Sincerely yours,
Onisim