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The messiah is almost here

Douggg

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What's your point? That the Antichrist will be a Jew? The Bible contradicts.

Revelation makes it clear that Babylon the Great who is Jerusalem/Israel will be destroyed by the Antichrist. So the Antichrist will not rule in Babylon/Jerusalem in a temple as dispensationalists claim, he will be the one who hates and destroys Babylon. This also proves that Babylon the Great and the Antichrist are from two different origins.

The bizarre thought that Babylon is a city that will only appear in the future is biblically wrong. Revelation makes it clear that Babylon the Great already existed at the time of the Neo-Babylonian Empire and has been murdering prophets ever since. This can only be Jerusalem. Note also that Revelation speaks of a "New Jerusalem" that is in heaven, a heavenly city. The question is what happened to the "Old Jerusalem" that is on earth? Well, it will be finally destroyed by the Antichrist.
Babylon the Great in Revelation, although powerful, but evil, is a term for Satan and his angels kingdom - a spiritual kingdom of evil in rebellion against God, which seeks to damage and destroy HIs creation, including the souls of men. And thus Babylon the Great is our enemy.

That kingdom will be destroyed, and the Kingdom of God comes in power and greatness to rule over all the nations when Jesus returns, His saints with Him.

The fall of Babylon the Great, down to earth, begins when the 7th trumpet sounds, and there is the war in (the second) heaven and Satan and his angels cast down to earth... woe to the inhabitants to the earth and sea for the evil they bring - during the great tribulation.
 
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dfw69

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What's your point? That the Antichrist will be a Jew? The Bible contradicts.

No that’s not my point my main point is that the Jews are going to establish the Messianic age

But since you brought up that ..are not all non believing Jews antichrist? They deny the father had a son… no son no Jesus


And we are classified as anti Semitic to them? We believe Jesus shall reign king of the Jews…

So there is a clash as Paul taught Roman’s 11:28

I believe the ac will be raised up in a Jewish type environment and will hate her and will desire to destroy her and lead a rebellion against her

You may say the gentiles will rise up and he will lead the gentiles? Yes

Revelation makes it clear that Babylon the Great who is Jerusalem/Israel will be destroyed by the Antichrist.
No mystery Babylon is a false Judaism
True pure Judaism came from god


So the Antichrist will not rule in Babylon/Jerusalem in a temple as dispensationalists claim,

Antichrist is a spiritual term meaning against the idea that Jesus will return to reign in Jerusalem

If Jews establish a kingdom they will reign in Jerusalem with the idea that a man will sit on the throne of David and Jesus was false

And if a false Judaism rules the world preaching Jesus will not be tolerated



he will be the one who hates and destroys Babylon.
Mystery Babylon yes the false Judaism


This also proves that Babylon the Great and the Antichrist are from two different origins.
Antichrist will be raised up under mystery Babylon a false religion a false Judaism that rules over the age

He will lead the gentiles ..the 10 tribes of Israel are gentiles against the kingdom of Judah

The bizarre thought that Babylon is a city that will only appear in the future is biblically wrong.
Mystery Babylon will have a headquarters a city built in the land of shinar zech 5


Revelation makes it clear that Babylon the Great already existed at the time of the Neo-Babylonian Empire and has been murdering prophets ever since. This can only be Jerusalem. Note also that Revelation speaks of a "New Jerusalem" that is in heaven, a heavenly city. The question is what happened to the "Old Jerusalem" that is on earth? Well, it will be finally destroyed by the Antichrist.
It’s a false Judaism it’s a Judaism not intended by god and yes it’s been around for some time

Jesus will establish true Judaism again the way god intended it to be it will be glorious


The antichrist will destroy false Judaism and then seek to establish himself as the god of Israel and seek to unify the 2 kingdoms

He does not destroy the city he intends to rule the world from
 
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ViaCrucis

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I see you are Lutheran. Wasn't Martin Luther highly anti-semitic ?

Yes, and his anti-semitism is something we condemn. Lutheranism isn't "what Martin Luther believed". Luther wasn't a prophet or a pope, and we don't even regard him as the "founder". We view our church simply as being Christ's Church. Which is why we confess the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds, sometimes using the traditional wording "we believe in the ... catholic Church" and sometimes using the wording "we believe in the ... Christian Church". For us this is the same in meaning: we believe in the one and only Church which Christ founded two thousand years ago, which is comprised of all the Faithful everywhere and throughout all generations--which is, we argue, the proper meaning of the word "catholic". From the Greek word katholikos, literally translated "according to the whole". So we confess belief that the Christian Church, Christ's Church, is the entire Church, the holy and apostolic and singular Church of Jesus Christ built upon the teaching, faith, and preaching of His apostles which has been received down through the centuries, confessed, and testified to in the infallible and divinely inspired Holy Scriptures.

The term "Lutheran" originated as a desparaging term by our theological opponents. They called us "Lutherans" in order to associate us with Luther in order to accuse of teaching heresy and departing from the catholic faith. We have, however, always maintained that our faith is nothing other than the historic catholic faith, the faith of the Apostles, the faith of the ancient and holy fathers, the faith of the Creeds. That ours is nothing other than basic Christian faith. To distinguish ourselves from our theological opponents in Rome (who, obviously, were still Christians) we chose to identify ourselves and distinguish ourselves as Christians who sought to reform and cleanse Christ's Church with the faithful preaching of the Gospel. So we called ourselves "Evangelical" (German: Evangelische), literally "Gospel-ist". Evangelical is still used to refer to Lutheranism around the world.

But we do not follow Martin Luther. And what Luther said about our Jewish neighbors is evil, reprehensible, and of the devil.

Judaism will play a significant role in the fulfillment of end-times prophecy. Therefore, it is is important to know what Judaism believes in regards to the messiah to know why the Jews will temporarily believe that the person who becomes the Antichrist is their messiah for awhile.

I have no reason to believe any of this. I trust in the word of Holy Scripture, and confess the faith of the Christian Church down through the centuries. And what you say is neither biblical nor what the Church has confessed and believed.

The rapture/resurrection is not at Jesus's return, but before HIs return and before the great tribulation. Jesus coming to receive them who are looking for Him, to Himself, to forever be with the Lord where ever He goes.

The Scriptures teach that at Christ's Parousia the dead shall be raised, and those who are alive and remaining at His Parousia shall join them and meet Him. What you say here has no basis in Scripture or Christian teaching. It is mere human tradition and innovation, not the word of God.

At His Return, His saints coming with Him.

All shall be gathered together when, on glorious Day, He comes to judge the living and the dead. The dead shall be raised, the living shall be transformed, and Christ shall reign forever and ever, kingdom without end. Unto the ages of the ages.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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It would appear that the Islamophobia of the previous decades and the conspiracy theories about Muslims is now mutating into, once again, a conspiracy theory about the Jewish people. Proving the axiom that virtually every conspiracy theory will ultimately try and blame the Jews.

Almighty God, Ruler of Heaven and Earth, have mercy upon a forgetful and faithless church that refuses You and entertains myths and gossips and rumors. Forgive us, heal us, lead us to repentance for our sin. We have sinned against You, we have sinned against our neighbor. We have sinned in thought, and in word, and in deed. By what we have done and what we have left undone. Have mercy on us, forgive us, deliver us from evil. Teach us, by Your Holy Spirit, to delight in Your will and to follow Your Way. In the Name of Your beloved Son, Whom You sent for us sinners, to suffer and die and bear the weight of all our guilt and shame, that we might be reconciled unto You, return us again to knowing You. Return us again to loving You. Return us again to the foot of the Cross of Your beloved Son. Teach us, lead us, restore us, forgive us, have mercy on us O God. We must again remember our first love, teach us again what it means to bear the cross, teach us again what it means to suffer for Your sake, grant us true gold purified by fire and destroy the false riches and burn down the idols and high places which we have built, by which we have turned against You. Heal Your Church O God. Preserve us in the faith, hold us in Your grace, ignite in us the love which You have commanded us to have by the power of Your Holy Spirit. For Yours, O Lord, is the kingdom, the glory, and the power, forever and ever.

In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, one God, Holy Trinity, now and forever. Amen.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dfw69

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I find it interesting that you seem to be a futurist

Yes
and yet you're naive to the concept of what the CBDC will be capable of. The plan isn't to use it to lift the world out of poverty, the plan is to keep people in a state of austerity and digital censorship. If all of the currency in the world becomes digital, that's one step closer to implementing a one-world global currency, which we know will be a feature of the real end times.
Lol well it is a new concept and the Bible mentions nothing about digital currency
 
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Emun

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I see you are Lutheran. Wasn't Martin Luther highly anti-semitic ?
If Luther is anti-Semitic, then the whole early church is anti-Semitic. How was Luther anti-Semitic, did he hate Jews because of their ethnicity? No, he did not. He despised Judaism but not Jews per se. If Luther is anti-Semitic because he hated Judaism, then Jesus is also anti-Semitic because he called the God of the Jews the devil (John 8:44).
 
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Yes

Lol well it is a new concept and the Bible mentions nothing about digital currency
There's a lot of futuristic stuff the bible doesn't specifically mention. I arrived at this conclusion by looking at it logically. If we ask the questions of how a global currency could come about, and be enforced worldwide, and be shut off and on depending upon whether someone was approved to use said currency (via a technological mark) then it just makes sense that the concept of CBDC would have a role to play. What do you think?
 
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dfw69

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There's a lot of futuristic stuff the bible doesn't specifically mention. I arrived at this conclusion by looking at it logically. If we ask the questions of how a global currency could come about, and be enforced worldwide, and be shut off and on depending upon whether someone was approved to use said currency (via a technological mark) then it just makes sense that the concept of CBDC would have a role to play. What do you think?
I mean yea control the money control the world but it’s not the mark of the beast

The mark is a tatoo like mark of 3 things
Showing allegiance to the man claiming to be god in the flesh
 
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Emun

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No that’s not my point my main point is that the Jews are going to establish the Messianic age

But since you brought up that ..are not all non believing Jews antichrist? They deny the father had a son… no son no Jesus


And we are classified as anti Semitic to them? We believe Jesus shall reign king of the Jews…

So there is a clash as Paul taught Roman’s 11:28

I believe the ac will be raised up in a Jewish type environment and will hate her and will desire to destroy her and lead a rebellion against her

You may say the gentiles will rise up and he will lead the gentiles? Yes


No mystery Babylon is a false Judaism
True pure Judaism came from god




Antichrist is a spiritual term meaning against the idea that Jesus will return to reign in Jerusalem

If Jews establish a kingdom they will reign in Jerusalem with the idea that a man will sit on the throne of David and Jesus was false

And if a false Judaism rules the world preaching Jesus will not be tolerated




Mystery Babylon yes the false Judaism



Antichrist will be raised up under mystery Babylon a false religion a false Judaism that rules over the age

He will lead the gentiles ..the 10 tribes of Israel are gentiles against the kingdom of Judah


Mystery Babylon will have a headquarters a city built in the land of shinar zech 5



It’s a false Judaism it’s a Judaism not intended by god and yes it’s been around for some time

Jesus will establish true Judaism again the way god intended it to be it will be glorious


The antichrist will destroy false Judaism and then seek to establish himself as the god of Israel and seek to unify the 2 kingdoms

He does not destroy the city he intends to rule the world from
You said a lot of confusing things. You first said that "false Judaism" is Babylon and then you say Babylon is a city in Iraq. Don't take offense, but your words sound contradictory and apparently you don't know what you believe in yourself.

I want to make it clear that the idea that the Jews are still the people of God even though they reject the Messiah is clearly unorthodox. Furthermore, the consensus doctrine within Christianity is supersionism. This doctrine holds that there is only one people of God and that is Christianity. In Christianity, there are followers of all nations, including Jews.

Regarding Romans 11, yes, this is the favorite chapter of the dispensationalists. It is often used to prove that the Jews are still the people of God. But that is not what Paul means. Just read Romans 11:23, where Paul says that the unbelieving Jews are saved only when they accept the faith. That is, if a Jew dies as an unbeliever, he also goes to hell. But there are also Christian Jews, as I said before.
 
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Emun

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Babylon the Great in Revelation, although powerful, but evil, is a term for Satan and his angels kingdom - a spiritual kingdom of evil in rebellion against God, which seeks to damage and destroy HIs creation, including the souls of men. And thus Babylon the Great is our enemy.

That kingdom will be destroyed, and the Kingdom of God comes in power and greatness to rule over all the nations when Jesus returns, His saints with Him.

The fall of Babylon the Great, down to earth, begins when the 7th trumpet sounds, and there is the war in (the second) heaven and Satan and his angels cast down to earth... woe to the inhabitants to the earth and sea for the evil they bring - during the great tribulation.
Revelation says that the Antichrist will destroy Babylon. Do you understand? So Babylon cannot be something spiritual. It must be something physical. It is a city, a nation.
 
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Revelation says that the Antichrist will destroy Babylon. Do you understand? So Babylon cannot be something spiritual. It must be something physical. It is a city, a nation.
Really? Bible verse?
 
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dfw69

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The Messianic Age is already. Jesus Christ rose from the dead, He ascended, and reigns at the right hand of the Father, from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead on the Last Day.

Amen
"a messianic age coming from the Jews" already happened, and I don't fear it. It is the very reign and kingdom of God here and through His Church as the Gospel is proclaimed restoring, healing, and saving us sinners and reconciling us to God.
Yes but again this is about the coming messianic age of the Jews with a messiah on the throne

Can Judaism and Christianity coexist during this coming age?

Why would I believe in a "false messianic age"? Christ said there would be many false messiahs, and there have been false messiahs all throughout history. That's not something I fear.
But a jewish messianic age has never been done

Apart from Jesus of course



When He comes again to judge the living and the dead on the Last Day that is the day the dead shall be raised.
Last day of what?

Babylon is already fallen, it was ancient Rome which is no more.

No not correct where does it say Babylon is rome?

Satan is already defeated, he rages because his time is short.
YeS


We await the return of Christ and the renewal of all things, but St. Paul says that He must reign until every enemy is laid beneath His feet--the last enemy being death. When He returns and the dead are raised then it will be said, "Where O Death is your sting? Where O Death is your victory?" For death is swallowed up in victory.
Yes



There have been many messianic claimants throughout history.
Yes
He said His kingdom was not of this world.
That’s correct his kingdom is from god not satan who currently have 7 heads and 10 horns and a little will come after

Also currently has mystery Babylon riding his kingdoms

That has to come to an end


The kingdom He has received is an everlasting kingdom.

Yes
He isn't going to restore an earthly nation in the Levant,
Yes he is during the millennium

because in Him Israel isn't a geographic location, it is the Covenant in His blood through which we are reconciled to God by His grace. All who belong to Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, are Israel. He is Messiah ben David, and He reigns forever as King.
Yes the new covenant


Yes, Christ returns in Judgment on the Last Day.


Last day of what?
Innovative doctrines are always false. If it's not what the Apostles believed, if it's not what the Scriptures teach, and if it's not what anyone before the 1820's ever believed then it is, by definition, a false doctrine.

Don’t be so sure

No different than the Jehovah's Witnesses who claim Jesus "returned invisibly" in 1919 teach a false doctrine.

False yes
That's the same Parousia. Read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, Jesus is coming down, we meet Him in the air, but He is coming down. When Jesus returns, He comes down--we meet Him in the air.

No it’s not no mention of both coming taking place at the same time
Notice what you'll never read in the Bible: No where does it say that when Jesus returns He takes everyone everyone back up into heaven. That's not anywhere in your Bible. The only return of Christ is His returns in glory, which is when the dead are raised.

Phil 3:20-21 is clear where are home is when he returns


Yes. But read the words as they were meant to be taken. Not with whatever fanciful meanings we contrive by our own imaginations. Everyone speaks of the importance of exegesis for most of the Bible, but once we start talking about the Revelation all the rules of exegesis and hermeneutics are thrown out the window, and people just make up whatever they want as suits their fancy.

-CryptoLutheran
Example?
 
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dfw69

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You said a lot of confusing things.
I am willing to explain myself

You first said that "false Judaism" is Babylon and then you say Babylon is a city in Iraq.
Babylon is both a future city zech 5 and future headquarters of mystery Babylon

Mystery Babylon that rides the beast for centuries is a false Judaism say for instance..the babylonian Talmud that seduces the nations perhaps during the false messianic age?


Don't take offense, but your words sound contradictory and apparently you don't know what you believe in yourself.

No none taken and I appreciate your questioning…

I mean I’m no prophet so it’s really not clear to me what mystery Babylon will look like in the last days but I truly believe she will raise her ugly head during the false messianic age



I want to make it clear that the idea that the Jews are still the people of God even though they reject the Messiah is clearly unorthodox.
Paul makes it clear all Israel will be saved
God has not abandoned the promises he
made to them Romans 11:26



Furthermore, the consensus doctrine within Christianity is supersionism. This doctrine holds that there is only one people of God and that is Christianity. In Christianity, there are followers of all nations, including Jews.

You mean the only way to the father is through Jesus … this refers to the rapture

Are there chosen ones , election according to his purpose and saints who keep the commandments of god and testifying the return of Jesus ?

Yes But Jesus is lord over all



Regarding Romans 11, yes, this is the favorite chapter of the dispensationalists. It is often used to prove that the Jews are still the people of God. But that is not what Paul means. Just read Romans 11:23, where Paul says that the unbelieving Jews are saved only when they accept the faith. That is, if a Jew dies as an unbeliever, he also goes to hell. But there are also Christian Jews, as I said before.
We are all condemn without Christ right ?

Acts 4:12
 
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dfw69

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Revelation says that the Antichrist will destroy Babylon. Do you understand? So Babylon cannot be something spiritual. It must be something physical. It is a city, a nation.
God destroys Babylon the city

Antichrist seeks to destroy mystery Babylon the rider of the 7 headed beast and 10 horns so she is a false religion
 
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dfw69

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Deceit= an abomination. There are many , that is one of them.
Blessings.
So if your view is wrong , are you a deceiver or just wrong in your interpretation? would you classify yourself teaching an abomination or expect others to label you a deceiver?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Amen

Yes but again this is about the coming messianic age of the Jews with a messiah on the throne

My Bible doesn't mention that.

Can Judaism and Christianity coexist during this coming age?

Define "this coming age". Are you simply speaking about the future within this present fallen age? If so, yes. If you are talking about in the Age to Come when God makes all things new, the question becomes moot as there won't be any competing world views since all will be done and finished. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

But a jewish messianic age has never been done

Apart from Jesus of course

There's also never been a Buddhist bodhisattvic age. But I don't think it matters, and I'm not concerned about such a thing happening. I don't consider Buddhism to be a true religion, nor do I believe Buddhists are part of some kind of conspiracy, or part of some grand end times narrative.

Last day of what?

Of history. Jesus said that on the ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ (eschate hemera), the "last day" He would raise the dead to life everlasting (John 6:39-40). Last day means last day.

No not correct where does it say Babylon is rome?

In Revelation ch. 17. Make special attention to the following details St. John gives us of this vision:

"And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.” And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus." (Revelation 17:3-6)

The beast she rides upon bears the imperial scarlet, and is described herself as wearing purple and scarlet, the Roman colors. She is described as drunk on the blood of the saints and martyrs.

"This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction." - Revelation 17:9-11

The woman, Babylon, is seated on a beast with seven heads representing the seven mountains. Also representing seven rulers, five who have fallen, one is, and one has not yet come (in John's time). There is also an eighth represented by the beast itself.

And finally, "And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth." (Revelation 17:18)

The woman, Babylon the prostitute, is a city with dominion over the kings of the earth. She is the city on seven hills, the center of trade and civilization, violent and drunk on the blood of Christian martyrs.

That's Rome. Nothing else comes close to fitting that description.

YeS



Yes




Yes

That’s correct his kingdom is from god not satan who currently have 7 heads and 10 horns and a little will come after

Also currently has mystery Babylon riding his kingdoms

That has to come to an end

That's not what I'm seeing in Scripture. Satan doesn't hold any authority or power, he is a liar, a thief, a murderer--but he is also defeated. Christ defeated him.

In the beginning of St. John's Apocalypse John beholds a vision of Jesus where the Lord declares,

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, 'Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.'" - Revelation 1:17-18

Christ has conquered, by His death and resurrection He has already made a spectacle of the powers and principalities, putting them to open shame (Colossians 2:15).

Yes

Yes he is during the millennium

I don't believe in a literal millennium. I believe it is symbolic of Christ's reign from heaven. Like most Christians I'm an Amillennialist, I believe it to be the most biblically coherrent position.

Yes the new covenant





Last day of what?

The Last Day.

Don’t be so sure

The alternative is that we disobey the Scriptures which teach us to hold fast and firm to what we have received from the beginning (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and earnestly contend for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).

I have no desire to follow after heretics and false teachers coming along with new doctrines to tickle and deceive, which the Scriptures expressly warn about (2 Timothy 4:1-5).


False yes


No it’s not no mention of both coming taking place at the same time

The Bible only refers to one Parousia of Jesus Christ. You won't find anywhere that says Jesus has two Parousias.

Phil 3:20-21 is clear where are home is when he returns



Example?

Our citizenship is in heaven because we are seated with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). We await, from heaven, the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. Philippians 3:20-21 doesn't say anything about Jesus beaming us up into heaven when he comes. Again, that's just not in the Bible.

When the Lord returns, that's it. Curtains closed, the play is over. All that's left is the after party.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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