Has not the goal been accomplished? The time of it's inception remains at the will of the Father.Dear timothyu,
The Lord's Prayer presents the "goal". What I have been presenting from scripture is Christ's plan to accomplish the goal. The plan is hidden but the goal is not. But still, only a "few" believe that Christ can accomplish the goal:
Has not the goal been accomplished? The time of it's inception remains at the will of the Father.
Because Jesus did what was required of Him to bring the Kingdom of God into existence. People mistakenly believe it's all about us. Not so. It is about God, His will, His Kingdom/governance and His Kingdom/world. The sooner people stop thinking me me me, the sooner it will come about.I'm not sure why you think it has been accomplished???
Because Jesus did what was required of Him to bring the Kingdom of God into existence. People mistakenly believe it's all about us. Not so. It is about God, His will, His Kingdom/governance and His Kingdom/world. The sooner people stop thinking me me me, the sooner it will come about.
If it was about us then that would please the Adversary because he and we are masters of self interest. Christians need to stop thinking what's in it for me. What Jesus did was for the Father.
Dear timothyu,
The Lord's Prayer presents the "goal". What I have been presenting from scripture is Christ's plan to accomplish the goal. The plan is hidden but the goal is not. But still, only a "few" believe that Christ can accomplish the goal:
Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Joe
For now, Christ is only appearing to and saving the First-Fruits of mankind in this present age. They are the Elect and the Heirs. Unless a person has been chosen from the foundation of the world to be in this first group, they will have to wait on the Lord to come later in the next age. This is the patience of the saints.
Paul is the pattern. Christ came to Paul and gave him the gift of the Holy Spirit. At this time of Paul's Early Rain experience, Paul had "set his mind on the flesh" and was the "chief of sinners". Paul's only hope was the Grace of God (embodied in Christ) who came to him and gave him the necessary gifts to change him from within. This is the only way scripture says a person receives the Holy Spirit and is the reason why Paul called Jesus "Lord" on the Damascus Road. We simply cannot seek Christ from our created condition. Christ must come to us and give us the Early Rain of the Spirit. This is the grace of God. We have no Free Will power to decide to come to Christ without Him coming to us first and doing His work within us.
1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Christ is the Savior and it is 100% His work to save us. If He fails to save even one person, then He failed them. But of course, the LOVE of God never fails.
The Early Rain (being "called out from the world") starts us traveling the wide pathway. Those who travel that pathway will do so until either their physical deaths OR until Christ comes to them a second time (if they are "chosen from the foundation of the world). Many are called but few are chosen. Many travel the wide pathway but only a few switch over to also travel the narrow pathway.
When Christ comes to His chosen First-Fruits the second time, He brings destruction to their carnal natures (judgment of the Old Man). He also brings the Latter Rain of the Spirit which gives them the new birth. It is at this time of the Latter Rain that the bride is made ready and the wedding occurs. Then after the wedding is consummated, a new child of God is born. The new "babe in Christ" then starts traveling the narrow path of the New Covenant of Faith to mature them into a son of God.
But not everyone who says to Him, Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Bless you brother Joe, it sounds like your advocating Universalism. I don’t subscribe to that belief because of many scriptures. Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter Heaven. Anyone who doesn’t abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Anyone who blasphemes the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Paul is one example of a man who came to Christ. His experience does not represent how everyone will come to Christ.
It is God’s work in us that leads us to repentance but we must choose to act in cooperation with His guidance in order to receive salvation. Romans 2:4-5.
I’m not sure what you mean “when Christ comes to them a second time”. What scripture is this referring to?
Yes He opened the door to the Father's Kingdom but not all who say Lord Lord shall enter for they are still thinking worldly rather than of the ways of the Kingdom. Jesus, not man, set the example and taught the counter-culture of the Kingdom. Man, as history has shown, does not take kindly to counter-cultures, especially those of peace and love. They see no way of physically or financially benefitting from it.Jesus created the pathway to salvation by His work on the cross.
Which is why I continually say that according to God man has it backwards. We need to be in the world bur not of it by simply living in a non threatening way of the Kingdom which puts others before self interest in that we don't take for ourselves that which may harm or oppress others. That is not works but simply a smarter way of life that follows the will of God rather than the usual thinking of man. Those are not the works of man which in themselves tend to be self indulgent.Your beliefs require the works of man for salvation. Do you not know that no one can be saved by approaching Christ by their own works?
Yes He opened the door to the Father's Kingdom but not all who say Lord Lord shall enter for they are still thinking worldly rather than of the ways of the Kingdom. Jesus, not man, set the example and taught the counter-culture of the Kingdom. Man, as history has shown, does not take kindly to counter-cultures, especially those of peace and love. They see no way of physically or financially benefitting from it.
Which is why I continually say that according to God man has it backwards. We need to be in the world bur not of it by simply living in a non threatening way of the Kingdom which puts others before self interest in that we don't take for ourselves that which may harm or oppress others. That is not works but simply a smarter way of life that follows the will of God rather than the usual thinking of man. Those are not the works of man which in themselves tend to be self indulgent.
Yes, He brought about the Kingdom whereas common man could not.The only other option is to believe that Christ is truly is the Savior of the world because all the works are His and He cannot fail.
For consideration:
Romans 8:29 For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son. From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word fore means before life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation as if our earthly life was the same as our created spirit life. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?
Well, if you are willing to accept the possibility of their choice, works, being a part of the basis of their election, why can that not be a part of the basis of ours too? May I submit that the only thing going against that possibility is the presupposition that Paul, in 2 Timothy 1:9 is excluding all our works, and I have to admit, that is what it seems to say, that is, what it seems to say until we look at Paul's definition of elective works in
Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth. Now, I do not think that I will get much argument when I say that the works of 2 Timothy 1:9 are the same works as are mentioned in this verse in Romans. In other words, Paul defines works the same in both verses. And just how does he define works? Well, in Romans, Paul is referring to Genesis 25:22 And the children struggled together within her. The children are Jacob and Esau, and Paul says that at the time of GOD's statement to Rebecca, to the effect that the elder shall serve the younger, that neither of them had done any good or evil (works).
But the reason Rebecca had prayed to GOD was that she was having such a hard time of it because Jacob and Esau were fighting so much in the womb. Now, if they were fighting, [the Hebrew literally means "trying to crush each other to pieces" according to Strong's], at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works, since it is impossible that both were following the Holy Spirit in their struggles with each other. So, although it is possible that neither was being good, it is impossible that neither was being evil.
Well now, we either have a blatant contradiction, the children were being evil before birth, and must dismiss Paul's works theology as being somewhat amiss, or we have to admit that the Pauline definition of works does not exclude pre-birth works from being a part of the basis of our election. In fact, by his omission of their pre-birth works in those works that are excluded as being a part of the basis of our election, he must be inferring that some pre-birth works have something to do with it. To say this all another way, what we have here in Romans is a classic example of a Scripture with some missing words, that is, what Paul is really saying is, neither having done any good or evil (works on the post-birth side of the womb) that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works (done on the post-birth side of the womb) but of HIM that calleth (when one is on the post-birth side of the womb).
Thus I contend see that Paul did not exclude our pre-birth works from being a part of the basis of our election.
Good day,
I never knew you...
Means Jesus never entered into an intimate relationship with these people...
He knew them in some sense as he created them....
He never knew (verb) them.
Thayer Definition:
1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
2a) to understand
2b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know
Part of Speech: verb
John Gill notes:
I never knew you; which must be understood consistent with the omniscience of Christ; for as the omniscient God he knew their persons and their works, and that they were workers of iniquity; he knew what they had been doing all their days under the guise of religion; he knew the principles of all their actions, and the views they had in all they did; nothing is hid from him. But, as words of knowledge often carry in them the ideas of affection, and approbation, see Psa_1:6 the meaning of Christ here is, I never had any love, or affection for you; I never esteemed you; I never made any account of you, as mine, as belonging to me; I never approved of you, nor your conduct; I never had any converse, communication, nor society with you, nor you with me. The Persic version reads it, "I have not known you of old", from ancient times, or from everlasting; I never knew you in my Father's choice, and my own, nor in my Father's gift to me, nor in the everlasting covenant of grace; I never knew you as my sheep, for whom, in time, I died, and called by name; I never knew you believe in me, nor love me, or mine; I have seen you in my house, preaching in my name, and at my table administering mine ordinance; but I never knew you exalt my person, blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; you talk of the works you have done, I never knew you do one good work in all your lives, with a single eye to my glory; wherefore, I will neither hear, nor see you; I have nothing to do with you. In this sense the phrase is used in the Talmud (y):
In Him,
Bill
Dear Bill,
Thanks for your comments.
If you have read my comments, you are probably aware of what I believe the phrase "I never knew you" represents (#3 of your list). Of course, it is spiritual intercourse and not literal. It happens "within us" and that is what produces a child of God. It is one of several analogies Christ uses to teach about the pathway of salvation.
Joe
Good Day, Joe
I did see that after I posted.
IN Him,
Bill
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