The meaning of I NEVER KNEW YOU Mat 7:23

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,643
7,854
63
Martinez
✟903,663.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

What does Christ mean exactly by saying to these believers that He never knew them?

Below is my understanding from scripture of what Christ meant. Can anyone add to it?

For mankind in this present age to be saved, we must become the wife of Christ so that the new child of God can be born. When Christ says to these believers that He never “knew” them, He is saying that they are not is wife with whom He has produced offspring (child of God).

Please keep in mind that the analogy of a husband and wife used by Christ to teach how He saves each of His Elect is a spiritual analogy. That means it all happens "within" us. Mankind is the woman. When a person is "called out", they are betrothed to Christ. When Christ comes a second time to them, the marriage occurs. When the marriage is consummated, a new child of God is produced.

Here are some scriptures that teach this relationship between Christ and mankind:

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Someday, all mankind will spiritually become descendants of Abraham after they converted but only those saved in this present age will become the bride (wife) of Christ. They are the Firstfruits/Elect/Heirs/Overcomers/Chosen/Saints. Below are some scriptures that support my understanding:

The parable of the Ten Virgins is a detailed teaching on our marriage relationship with Christ.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto TEN virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in flasks with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The parable begins by showing us Ten Virgins. The term “Virgins” symbolizes all believers who have been “Called out from the world”. All ten virgins have received the Early Rain of the Spirit at this point but not the Latter Rain. The number TEN represents the completeness of their carnality. They have all been made “worse than before”.

The Lamp in verse 1 represents the Word of God (Christ/Truth) and the “Oil” with which it is filled represents the anointing of the Holy Spirit. This original filling of Oil in the lamps represent the Early Rain of the Spirit within each “called out” believer. The Light that the Lamp gives off is “truth” which lights the pathway to Christ.

Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

The “truth” of the original filling of Oil that lights the way to Christ is the Old Covenant of Law (works).

Mat 25:2 And FIVE of them were Wise, and FIVE were Foolish.

The parable continues with two additional symbols: FIVE Wise Virgins and FIVE Foolish Virgins. The number FIVE is a symbol for the two ways mankind relates to God. Those two ways are by “works” (Old Covenant of Law) or by “faith” (New Covenant of Grace through Faith).

The FIVE Foolish Virgins represent those who have been Called Out but are not chosen to be the bride of Christ. They approach Christ by “works”. They will remain under the Law until their physical deaths.

The FIVE Wise Virgins represent those who have been Called Out and Chosen to be the Bride of Christ. They will for a time approach Christ by “works” alongside the 5 Foolish Virgins but they will eventually change their approach to “Grace through Faith”.

Mat 25:3-5 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in flasks with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

While the Ten Virgins wait for the Bridegroom to come a second time (the first time was when the betrothal was made/Early Rain), they all slumber & sleep and do not keep watch. The symbol “slumbered and slept” represents the time when we are spiritually blind and are spiritually dead. At this time, the Wise Virgins are no different from the Foolish Virgins. They too, are in a worsened spiritual state and still carry the Lamp that gives off the light of the Old Covenant of Law.

However, verse 4 lets us know that the 5 Wise Virgins are those who have been 'chosen from the foundation of the world" to be the Bride of Christ because they carry an extra flask of Oil.

Mat 25:6-9 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

At midnight, the deepest part of our spiritual darkness, the call goes out to announce the Bridegroom’s approach. This is the same call that was made by John the Baptist to the Nation of Israel and later by the Apostle John to “Called Out” Christian believers. It is a call to repent from the Works of the Law so as to prepare the way for us to receive Christ and the New Covenant.

When both the Wise Virgins and the Foolish Virgins hear “the voice of one crying in the wilderness(Luke 3:4) and “come out of her my people” (Rev 18:4), it tells them the Bridegroom is coming. They all awake from their slumber and trim their Lamps. As they do, the Lamps begin to go out. A second filling of Oil is needed. For the 5 wise Virgins, since they brought a second filling of Oil, they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit and go out to meet Christ. They now start following the new light given off from the Lamp which represents the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. But because the 5 Foolish Virgins do not have a second filling of Oil, they are forced to “turn back” from whence they came. They will remain under Law.

This time of turning back is symbolized by Lot’s wife who turned back.

Luke 17:31-32 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife.

It is also shown to us in John 6:66 when some of the Christ’s disciples turned away from following Him after responding to the cry of John the Baptist.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

The 5 Foolish Virgins cannot continue on to meet the Bridegroom because they did not receive a second filling of Oil for their Lamps. This New Oil symbolizes the Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit which would have lighted their way to walk by the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. The 5 Foolish Virgins simply were not Chosen from the foundation of the world and had no choice but to remain under Law. Because they never became the wife of Christ, Christ never “knew” them so as to produce a new child of God. As a result, they remained under Law and were not saved.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ecc 11:1-5 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days. 2 Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth. 3 if the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be. 4 He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap. 5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

Two portions of bread are cast upon the waters. Bread is Truth (Christ). The first portion of bread goes to “seven” which is a reference to the complete carnality of mankind we have from birth. That same carnal nature is symbolized in the book of Revelation as a Seven-headed, 10 Horned Beast. This is the time when an unbeliever is called out from the
world (Early Rain). Then, a second portion of bread goes to “eight” because “thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth”. “Eight” is a reference to who we become by Satan’s deception. Satan makes mankind’s “last state” (Man of Sin) of carnality worse than the first. When this second portion of bread is given to “Eight”, this event brings the Latter Rain when true spiritual vision is given to the Called and Chosen believer and they are converted.

Ecc 11:5 goes on to give us more details of why the two portions of bread are given to mankind. The first section of verse 5 tells us that we do not know the way of the Spirit or how the child grows in the womb. As Paul said, Christ and His Church are a Great Mystery. The woman with child in verse 5 is a direct reference to the “Called Out Ones” who are in the process of birthing many new Sons of God. But before they do, they must make themselves “ready”. In other words, they must become a “chaste virgin” (2Cor 2:11) and switch from following the Old Covenant of Law (works) to the New Covenant of Faith. The verse finishes with another statement that says again that the “works of God who maketh all” is a mystery.

To summarize: God’s plan of producing His offspring through those He has Called Out requires TWO portions of bread (Early and Latter Rain). The first portion (Early Rain) comes to us while we are in our unbelieving carnal condition we have from birth (seven). The second portion (Latter Rain) comes to us after Satan has intervened and made our original carnal state worse than the first (eight).

After receiving both portions of bread (Early & Latter Rain), the “chaste virgin” (a Called and Chosen believer) is now ready to be married to Christ. After the marriage takes place, Christ “knows” His wife and a new babe in Christ is born.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gal 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Paul has already experienced the new birth. His “mother” is who he was from birth and who was under Law. The betrothal to Christ occurred at the time of Paul’s Early Rain experience on his way to Damascus. The marriage and new birth occurred three days later in Damascus when He received the Latter Rain and was “born” as a child of God.

Joe
For clarity, are you Seventh Day Adventist?
 
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,643
7,854
63
Martinez
✟903,663.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dear BNR32FAN,
Scripture nowhere teaches that we have "free will" to accept Christ. I know that is a commonly taught belief but it is not true. No only is it not true, "free will" is the foundational belief that supports "works" which is the cause of a believer's "falling away".

In our created condition, no man seeks after God or understands Him. In fact, our carnal minds hate God:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In our flawed spiritual condition, no one can make a free will choice to accept Christ. It is not possible. Scripture even teaches that unless Christ comes to a person and gives them the gift of the Holy Spirit, they cannot ever call Jesus "Lord":

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Since this verse is true and support by many other scriptures, how can any man "seek" out Christ and make a "free "will" decision to accept Him. God's Word says it is not possible.

Also, consider Paul's conversion. Scripture says that Paul's conversion is the PATTERN that everyone must follow to be saved. Paul hated Christ and was traveling on the Damascus Road to persecute Christians. He had no intention of "seeking" Christ or making a decision to accept Him as Lord. But all that change "suddenly" when Christ came to His temple (Paul) and gave Paul "gifts". One of the gifts was the Holy Spirit. Paul had no choice in the matter as to whether to accept it or reject it. In fact, Paul was not even aware that it was given to Him. But we know that it was because Paul fell to his knees and called Jesus "Lord". If Paul did not have the Holy Spirit, He would not have been able to call Jesus "Lord". There is no "free will" choice in the path to salvation as is commonly taught. Yes, we make a decision to accept Christ but it is CAUSED by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that Christ gives us WITHOUT our asking or permission.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Christ prepares our heart by giving us the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit gives us the answer of our tongue to accept Him as Lord. This event is called the Early Rain.

I know if you accept the truth of the verses, it will cause a great deal of conflict with many of your other beliefs but I can assure you, there are spiritual answers that will eliminate those conflicts. There is much more that I can say but if you can't accept the verses I've shown you, more verses will probably not help either.

I hope you receive this post in the spirit of love in which it was sent.
Joe
So are you a Calvanist?
 
Upvote 0

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
63
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟31,906.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not under the law of man, our ways but under the law of the Kingdom, God's ways (which puts the will of the Father ahead of the will of man, thus loving all as self)

Dear timothyu,
When we are saved, we are no longer under the Law of sin and death. The Old Covenant of Law is fulfilled by Christ and when we are "in Christ', it is fulfilled within us, too. We have rested from our "works". If we believe that we must do something to earn our salvation (even a free will confession of faith), then we are approaching Christ by "works". With this Free Will mindset, we believe that we are better, or smarter or wiser than those who reject Christ and that is why they deserve to go to Hell and we don't. But it was Christ who came to us and prepared our heart with the Holy Spirit as to why we accepted Him as Lord. It was 100% His work within us. And since He did it for us, He can and will do it for everyone else someday, in "due time". He is not a respecter of persons.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Please read my response above to BNR32FAN above which explains this subject of Free Will in more detail.

Joe
 
Upvote 0

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
63
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟31,906.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So are you a Calvanist?

Dear Maria,
Absolutely not. I don't associate with any church or group. My beliefs come only from scripture. If you read my conversion testimony in my profile, it may help you understand me a little better.
Joe
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,525
8,427
up there
✟306,620.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
When we are saved, we are no longer under the Law of sin and death.
Agree. We are under the Law of the Kingdom, not of the world of man.

If we believe that we must do something to earn our salvation (even a free will confession of faith), then we are approaching Christ by "works".
So much for the preparations a bride must make.

But it was Christ who came to us and prepared our heart with the Holy Spirit as to why we accepted Him as Lord. It was 100% His work within us.
Yes, He showed us the difference between the world of man and the Kingdom ( a counter-culture), leaving us with a choice.
 
Upvote 0

Matt5

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2019
880
334
Zürich
✟132,798.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

What does Christ mean exactly by saying to these believers that He never knew them?

Below is my understanding from scripture of what Christ meant. Can anyone add to it?

For mankind in this present age to be saved, we must become the wife of Christ so that the new child of God can be born. When Christ says to these believers that He never “knew” them, He is saying that they are not is wife with whom He has produced offspring (child of God).

Please keep in mind that the analogy of a husband and wife used by Christ to teach how He saves each of His Elect is a spiritual analogy. That means it all happens "within" us. Mankind is the woman. When a person is "called out", they are betrothed to Christ. When Christ comes a second time to them, the marriage occurs. When the marriage is consummated, a new child of God is produced.

Here are some scriptures that teach this relationship between Christ and mankind:

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Someday, all mankind will spiritually become descendants of Abraham after they converted but only those saved in this present age will become the bride (wife) of Christ. They are the Firstfruits/Elect/Heirs/Overcomers/Chosen/Saints. Below are some scriptures that support my understanding:

The parable of the Ten Virgins is a detailed teaching on our marriage relationship with Christ.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto TEN virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in flasks with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The parable begins by showing us Ten Virgins. The term “Virgins” symbolizes all believers who have been “Called out from the world”. All ten virgins have received the Early Rain of the Spirit at this point but not the Latter Rain. The number TEN represents the completeness of their carnality. They have all been made “worse than before”.

The Lamp in verse 1 represents the Word of God (Christ/Truth) and the “Oil” with which it is filled represents the anointing of the Holy Spirit. This original filling of Oil in the lamps represent the Early Rain of the Spirit within each “called out” believer. The Light that the Lamp gives off is “truth” which lights the pathway to Christ.

Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

The “truth” of the original filling of Oil that lights the way to Christ is the Old Covenant of Law (works).

Mat 25:2 And FIVE of them were Wise, and FIVE were Foolish.

The parable continues with two additional symbols: FIVE Wise Virgins and FIVE Foolish Virgins. The number FIVE is a symbol for the two ways mankind relates to God. Those two ways are by “works” (Old Covenant of Law) or by “faith” (New Covenant of Grace through Faith).

The FIVE Foolish Virgins represent those who have been Called Out but are not chosen to be the bride of Christ. They approach Christ by “works”. They will remain under the Law until their physical deaths.

The FIVE Wise Virgins represent those who have been Called Out and Chosen to be the Bride of Christ. They will for a time approach Christ by “works” alongside the 5 Foolish Virgins but they will eventually change their approach to “Grace through Faith”.

Mat 25:3-5 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in flasks with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

While the Ten Virgins wait for the Bridegroom to come a second time (the first time was when the betrothal was made/Early Rain), they all slumber & sleep and do not keep watch. The symbol “slumbered and slept” represents the time when we are spiritually blind and are spiritually dead. At this time, the Wise Virgins are no different from the Foolish Virgins. They too, are in a worsened spiritual state and still carry the Lamp that gives off the light of the Old Covenant of Law.

However, verse 4 lets us know that the 5 Wise Virgins are those who have been 'chosen from the foundation of the world" to be the Bride of Christ because they carry an extra flask of Oil.

Mat 25:6-9 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

At midnight, the deepest part of our spiritual darkness, the call goes out to announce the Bridegroom’s approach. This is the same call that was made by John the Baptist to the Nation of Israel and later by the Apostle John to “Called Out” Christian believers. It is a call to repent from the Works of the Law so as to prepare the way for us to receive Christ and the New Covenant.

When both the Wise Virgins and the Foolish Virgins hear “the voice of one crying in the wilderness(Luke 3:4) and “come out of her my people” (Rev 18:4), it tells them the Bridegroom is coming. They all awake from their slumber and trim their Lamps. As they do, the Lamps begin to go out. A second filling of Oil is needed. For the 5 wise Virgins, since they brought a second filling of Oil, they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit and go out to meet Christ. They now start following the new light given off from the Lamp which represents the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. But because the 5 Foolish Virgins do not have a second filling of Oil, they are forced to “turn back” from whence they came. They will remain under Law.

This time of turning back is symbolized by Lot’s wife who turned back.

Luke 17:31-32 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife.

It is also shown to us in John 6:66 when some of the Christ’s disciples turned away from following Him after responding to the cry of John the Baptist.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

The 5 Foolish Virgins cannot continue on to meet the Bridegroom because they did not receive a second filling of Oil for their Lamps. This New Oil symbolizes the Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit which would have lighted their way to walk by the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. The 5 Foolish Virgins simply were not Chosen from the foundation of the world and had no choice but to remain under Law. Because they never became the wife of Christ, Christ never “knew” them so as to produce a new child of God. As a result, they remained under Law and were not saved.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ecc 11:1-5 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days. 2 Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth. 3 if the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be. 4 He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap. 5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

Two portions of bread are cast upon the waters. Bread is Truth (Christ). The first portion of bread goes to “seven” which is a reference to the complete carnality of mankind we have from birth. That same carnal nature is symbolized in the book of Revelation as a Seven-headed, 10 Horned Beast. This is the time when an unbeliever is called out from the
world (Early Rain). Then, a second portion of bread goes to “eight” because “thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth”. “Eight” is a reference to who we become by Satan’s deception. Satan makes mankind’s “last state” (Man of Sin) of carnality worse than the first. When this second portion of bread is given to “Eight”, this event brings the Latter Rain when true spiritual vision is given to the Called and Chosen believer and they are converted.

Ecc 11:5 goes on to give us more details of why the two portions of bread are given to mankind. The first section of verse 5 tells us that we do not know the way of the Spirit or how the child grows in the womb. As Paul said, Christ and His Church are a Great Mystery. The woman with child in verse 5 is a direct reference to the “Called Out Ones” who are in the process of birthing many new Sons of God. But before they do, they must make themselves “ready”. In other words, they must become a “chaste virgin” (2Cor 2:11) and switch from following the Old Covenant of Law (works) to the New Covenant of Faith. The verse finishes with another statement that says again that the “works of God who maketh all” is a mystery.

To summarize: God’s plan of producing His offspring through those He has Called Out requires TWO portions of bread (Early and Latter Rain). The first portion (Early Rain) comes to us while we are in our unbelieving carnal condition we have from birth (seven). The second portion (Latter Rain) comes to us after Satan has intervened and made our original carnal state worse than the first (eight).

After receiving both portions of bread (Early & Latter Rain), the “chaste virgin” (a Called and Chosen believer) is now ready to be married to Christ. After the marriage takes place, Christ “knows” His wife and a new babe in Christ is born.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gal 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Paul has already experienced the new birth. His “mother” is who he was from birth and who was under Law. The betrothal to Christ occurred at the time of Paul’s Early Rain experience on his way to Damascus. The marriage and new birth occurred three days later in Damascus when He received the Latter Rain and was “born” as a child of God.

Joe

Here's my take:

1. The (Islamic) false prophet, whose name is Jesus, arrives.
2. He fools some of the virgins who then join Islam until penalty of death.
3. The wise virgins choose death over joining Islam.
4. The real Jesus shows up.
5. Somebody is in serious trouble.

Note: Islamic prophecy talks about the Islamic Jesus and the Mahdi (Antichrist.)

That is the snare from Luke 21:35.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Navair2
Upvote 0

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
63
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟31,906.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Agree. We are under the Law of the Kingdom, not of the world of man.


So much for the preparations a bride must make.


Yes, He showed us the difference between the world of man and the Kingdom ( a counter-culture), leaving us with a choice.

Dear timothyu,
Any "preparations" the bride makes, comes from Christ's work within us. The Old Covenant is man's "works" and is outward. The New Covenant is Christ's works and is inward. Under the New Covenant, the work of saving us (converting us) is solely the work of Christ.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Scripture even says that unbelievers can not make "free will" choices:

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

God is in full control of His creation. He made us flawed in the beginning so that we would sin and know "good and evil". When this purpose of evil is fulfilled within each of us, He will restore us to Himself and give us His Spirit so that we can know "good".

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Christ was sent to mankind to restore us to God.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

It is Christ's work to restore mankind to God. And since Christ cannot sin (miss the mark), He will not fail mankind. Mankind can't seek God or even understand God in our created condition. If Christ doesn't come to each of us and do His work within us FIRST, no one would be saved.

Joe

 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,525
8,427
up there
✟306,620.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
If Christ doesn't come to each of us and do His work within us FIRST, no one would be saved.
He brought us the Gospel of the Kingdom. Man and Christianity choose to ignore it, preferring the world we have made in our own image..
 
Upvote 0

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
63
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟31,906.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
He brought us the Gospel of the Kingdom. Man and Christianity choose to ignore it, preferring the world we have made in our own image..


Dear timothyu,
I know that what you believe is commonly taught but scripture does not say any such thing. The ONLY WAY to be saved is for Christ to come to us and give us the gifts of the Holy Spirit and faith. Only then will we willing accept Him as Lord.

And yes, all mankind prefers the things that are pleasing to their carnal natures and they "ignore" Christ. The carnal mind has no use for Him. No one seeks after God. So why do you believe that some people seek after Christ when scripture says that we have no such ability?

What makes professing Christians different from those who reject Christ? Were they wiser, smarter, luckier or just not as evil?

You are turning the confession of faith into a "work" which Christ rejects. You are approaching Christ by the Old Covenant.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Our carnal nature rejects the New Covenant and approaches Christ by "works". It sees the Old as being better. The Doctrine of Free Will is a "works" based belief system. Our carnal mind has a strong need to show that we are somehow better than the next guy - that there really is something good in us that makes not as evil as those who reject Christ. But scripture says it is wrong to steal. Belief in the Doctrine of Free Will is stealing from Christ. And then the Doctrine of Free Will is used to justify why those who reject Christ should be cast into Hell for all eternity - never mind that the penalty for sin is death. Can't you see that belief goes against the very nature of Christ and His work to save mankind?

Joe
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,525
8,427
up there
✟306,620.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The ONLY WAY to be saved is for Christ to come to us and give us the gifts of the Holy Spirit and faith. Only then will we willing accept Him as Lord.
Again He came to teach the Gospel of the Kingdom, saying that is why he was sent. It represented a counter-culture to the backwards world of man. Do you not agree? I get what you are saying but the Kingdom is suspiciously absent.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,643
7,854
63
Martinez
✟903,663.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dear Maria,
Absolutely not. I don't associate with any church or group. My beliefs come only from scripture. If you read my conversion testimony in my profile, it may help you understand me a little better.
Joe
Ok but so far you have been a stumbling block for me. Be blessed,
 
Upvote 0

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
63
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟31,906.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again He came to teach the Gospel of the Kingdom, saying that is why he was sent. It represented a counter-culture to the backwards world of man. Do you not agree? I get what you are saying but the Kingdom is suspiciously absent.

Dear timothyu,
Of course, Christ teaches about the Kingdom of Heaven. He also came to show us the Father. But only those who have the Holy Spirit and have been given "eyes that can see" can understand what He teaches. No one else can understand. Even after a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they remain spiritually blind.

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a “type” of a Called and Chosen believer.

Joe
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,525
8,427
up there
✟306,620.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind.
I disagree. The Apostles/disciples were well aware of the Gospel of the Kingdom and God's will being done in earth rather than man's. His earliest followers (slaves, servants, women) were the oppressed who well understood what Jesus was talking about in comparing the two systems, the oppressive system of man that lasts until this day, and the freedom the Kingdom/governance of God offered. . Jesus said he was sending the HS to help keep them on the narrow path of the counter-culture of the Kingdom rather than return to the wide path of man's theology. The Christian church without the Kingdom ended up no different than those of the Jewish Temple which Jesus continually chastised.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,529
7,351
Dallas
✟885,716.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Dear BNR32FAN,
Scripture nowhere teaches that we have "free will" to accept Christ. I know that is a commonly taught belief but it is not true. No only is it not true, "free will" is the foundational belief that supports "works" which is the cause of a believer's "falling away".

In our created condition, no man seeks after God or understands Him. In fact, our carnal minds hate God:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In our flawed spiritual condition, no one can make a free will choice to accept Christ. It is not possible. Scripture even teaches that unless Christ comes to a person and gives them the gift of the Holy Spirit, they cannot ever call Jesus "Lord":

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Since this verse is true and support by many other scriptures, how can any man "seek" out Christ and make a "free "will" decision to accept Him. God's Word says it is not possible.

Also, consider Paul's conversion. Scripture says that Paul's conversion is the PATTERN that everyone must follow to be saved. Paul hated Christ and was traveling on the Damascus Road to persecute Christians. He had no intention of "seeking" Christ or making a decision to accept Him as Lord. But all that change "suddenly" when Christ came to His temple (Paul) and gave Paul "gifts". One of the gifts was the Holy Spirit. Paul had no choice in the matter as to whether to accept it or reject it. In fact, Paul was not even aware that it was given to Him. But we know that it was because Paul fell to his knees and called Jesus "Lord". If Paul did not have the Holy Spirit, He would not have been able to call Jesus "Lord". There is no "free will" choice in the path to salvation as is commonly taught. Yes, we make a decision to accept Christ but it is CAUSED by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that Christ gives us WITHOUT our asking or permission.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Christ prepares our heart by giving us the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit gives us the answer of our tongue to accept Him as Lord. This event is called the Early Rain.

I know if you accept the truth of the verses, it will cause a great deal of conflict with many of your other beliefs but I can assure you, there are spiritual answers that will eliminate those conflicts. There is much more that I can say but if you can't accept the verses I've shown you, more verses will probably not help either.

I hope you receive this post in the spirit of love in which it was sent.
Joe

No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws him. As I said in my previous post I believe God granted His grace to everyone which enables them to come to Christ. Romans 8:7 is referring to people who set their mind on the flesh not on the Spirit. People who set their mind on the flesh cannot come to Christ until they repent. Romans 3:10-11 is often misunderstood because it’s a quote from Psalms 14 which begins with “the fool says in his heart there is no God…” That verse trips so many people up when there are numerous examples of people seeking God in the scriptures.
 
Upvote 0

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
3,697
2,811
Midwest
✟304,447.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Navair2
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
63
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟31,906.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I disagree. The Apostles/disciples were well aware of the Gospel of the Kingdom and God's will being done in earth rather than man's. His earliest followers (slaves, servants, women) were the oppressed who well understood what Jesus was talking about in comparing the two systems, the oppressive system of man that lasts until this day, and the freedom the Kingdom/governance of God offered. . Jesus said he was sending the HS to help keep them on the narrow path of the counter-culture of the Kingdom rather than return to the wide path of man's theology. The Christian church without the Kingdom ended up no different than those of the Jewish Temple which Jesus continually chastised.

Dear timothyu,
It is true the Christian church is spiritually no different than "those of the Jewish temple". But the Gospel of Christ is hidden from everyone (even the apostles) until Christ comes to each of us with Early and Latter Rain. There are no scriptures that say otherwise and plenty that support my understanding which you seem to not accept.
Joe
 
Upvote 0

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
63
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟31,906.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws him. As I said in my previous post I believe God granted His grace to everyone which enables them to come to Christ. Romans 8:7 is referring to people who set their mind on the flesh not on the Spirit. People who set their mind on the flesh cannot come to Christ until they repent. Romans 3:10-11 is often misunderstood because it’s a quote from Psalms 14 which begins with “the fool says in his heart there is no God…” That verse trips so many people up when there are numerous examples of people seeking God in the scriptures.

Dear BNR32FAN,
The Grace of God will come to everyone at a time of God's choosing but where in scripture does it say that grace "enables" everyone to come to Christ? There are no such verses. Jesus Christ is the Grace of God and His work of giving us the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what "enables" a person to seek and to know God.

The work of Christ is what enables a person to be saved. Grace is the reason why He does His work.

We must wait on the Lord to complete His work in us and in everyone else. He is the one who chooses the timing of His work. Mankind has no power to choose when He comes to us. For now, Christ is only appearing to and saving the First-Fruits of mankind in this present age. They are the Elect and the Heirs. Unless a person has been chosen from the foundation of the world to be in this first group, they will have to wait on the Lord to come later in the next age. This is the patience of the saints.

Paul is the pattern. Christ came to Paul and gave him the gift of the Holy Spirit. At this time of Paul's Early Rain experience, Paul had "set his mind on the flesh" and was the "chief of sinners". Paul's only hope was the Grace of God (embodied in Christ) who came to him and gave him the necessary gifts to change him from within. This is the only way scripture says a person receives the Holy Spirit and is the reason why Paul called Jesus "Lord" on the Damascus Road. We simply cannot seek Christ from our created condition. Christ must come to us and give us the Early Rain of the Spirit. This is the grace of God. We have no Free Will power to decide to come to Christ without Him coming to us first and doing His work within us.

Because this is how Christ saves us, this verse will be testified to be true in "due time".

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ is the Savior and it is 100% His work to save us. If He fails to save even one person, then He failed them. But of course, the LOVE of God never fails.

Concerning "repentance" - those who need to "repent" are those who are "called out" and who mind the things of the flesh. They are the ones who have only received the Early Rain. Their repentance is to stop approaching Christ by their own "works" (things of the flesh) and come to Christ by faith alone, knowing that our salvation (even the confession of Faith) is the work of Christ. This was John the Baptist's message of repentance to the Nation of Israel. Those who responded to his call did so only because God worked within them to make it happen. God is the cause of all things, even the "answer of our tongue:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

The Nation of Israel was "called out" but needed to repent of their works in order to seek Christ by faith. And like Christians believers who are also "called out" (Early Rain), they too need to repent of their "works" and seek Christ by faith. Our repentance is to stop approaching God by works (Old Covenant) which our carnal natures prefer:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The Law was given to us to lead us to Christ. The pathway to salvation goes through the Law and then onto Faith. To be saved, we must travel both portions of the pathway - the wide path that leads to destruction (Law) and then the narrow path that leads to life (Faith).

The Early Rain (being "called out from the world") starts us traveling the wide pathway. Those who travel that pathway will do so until either their physical deaths OR until Christ comes to them a second time (if they are "chosen from the foundation of the world). Many are called but few are chosen. Many travel the wide pathway but only a few switch over to also travel the narrow pathway.

When Christ comes to His chosen First-Fruits the second time, He brings destruction to their carnal natures (judgment of the Old Man). He also brings the Latter Rain of the Spirit which gives them the new birth. It is at this time of the Latter Rain that the bride is made ready and the wedding occurs. Then after the wedding is consummated, a new child of God is born. The new "babe in Christ" then starts traveling the narrow path of the New Covenant of Faith to mature them into a son of God.

Joe
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FaithWillDo

Active Member
Jan 5, 2021
353
77
63
Fort Collins, Colorado
✟31,906.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And yet His plan is laid bare even in the Lord's Prayer.

Dear timothyu,
The Lord's Prayer presents the "goal". What I have been presenting from scripture is Christ's plan to accomplish the goal. The plan is hidden but the goal is not. But still, only a "few" believe that Christ can accomplish the goal:

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Joe
 
Upvote 0