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The meaning of I NEVER KNEW YOU Mat 7:23

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by FaithWillDo, Jun 11, 2021.

  1. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Has not the goal been accomplished? The time of it's inception remains at the will of the Father.
     
  2. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear timothyu,
    The goal will not be accomplished until all mankind is saved and that will take to the end of the final age.
    I'm not sure why you think it has been accomplished???
    Joe
     
  3. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Because Jesus did what was required of Him to bring the Kingdom of God into existence. People mistakenly believe it's all about us. Not so. It is about God, His will, His Kingdom/governance and His Kingdom/world. The sooner people stop thinking me me me, the sooner it will come about.

    If it was about us then that would please the Adversary because he and we are masters of self interest. Christians need to stop thinking what's in it for me. What Jesus did was for the Father.
     
  4. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I never knew you means that He never knew them as His special loved people given to Him by the Father, who are them He foreknew. Jn 17:2

    2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    Rom 8:29-30

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Rom 11:2

    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
     
  5. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear timothyu,
    Jesus created the pathway to salvation by His work on the cross. He still has much work to do within each person. His work on the cross was physical, now His work is spiritual. First comes the physical (natural), then comes the spiritual. Your beliefs require the works of man for salvation. Do you not know that no one can be saved by approaching Christ by their own works? I have fully explained this concept in my posts.
    Joe
     
  6. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    But not everyone who says to Him, Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven.
     
  7. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Bless you brother Joe, it sounds like your advocating Universalism. I don’t subscribe to that belief because of many scriptures. Not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter Heaven. Anyone who doesn’t abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Anyone who blasphemes the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

    Paul is one example of a man who came to Christ. His experience does not represent how everyone will come to Christ.

    It is God’s work in us that leads us to repentance but we must choose to act in cooperation with His guidance in order to receive salvation. Romans 2:4-5.

    I’m not sure what you mean “when Christ comes to them a second time”. What scripture is this referring to?
     
  8. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear BNR32FAN,

    Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

    In these verses you referred to above, Christ is teaching about the First-Fruits of His harvest.

    The only believers who enter into the Kingdom of Heaven are those who "do the will of my Father". But the only person who can do the will of the Father is Christ. Mankind can not, nor will they ever do the will of the Father. Because of this truth, we must be "born again" so that we can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. To be born again as a child of God, we must be "in Christ" since He is the only one who does the will of the Father. When we are 'in Christ", He governs our lives by the Holy Spirit so that we too, do the will of the Father.

    So how do I know that Christ is only speaking of the First-Fruits in the above verses? In verse 22, it says "in that day". The "day" it is referring comes after the day of resurrection, when those who are rejected by Christ stand before Him. Because they are still lacking and cannot do the will of the Father, Christ sends them off to be judged in the "Lake of Fire".

    Fire is a spiritual term that symbolizes the judgment of Christ. Mankind is saved through "fire".

    1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    The "loss" the verse is speaking of, is the loss of being an "heir" and a First-Fruit and the loss of not having "life" during the ages.

    Here is what Christ's judgment is like:

    Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

    Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

    Isa 1:27 Zion shall be REDEEMED with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

    Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

    Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

    Without judgment, mankind cannot not be saved. Judgment is a part of the pathway to salvation that we all will travel. All mankind must be "baptized with fire".

    Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

    Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, AND with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    Judgment teaches us the righteousness of God. Everything Christ does for mankind is because of His love for us. If Christ did not love us, He would not judge us. He would simply not resurrect us and would let us stay in the grave. After all, death is the true penalty of sin.

    But spiritually blind mankind has perverted the judgment of Christ and has turned it into a ghastly nightmare.

    Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

    Judgment is NOT eternal torment in literal fire for all eternity for no loving purpose.

    Joe
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
  9. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear BNR32FAN,
    You said that "anyone who blasphemes the Spirit shall not be forgiven". That is not a true statement. There is no unforgivable sin. Here is the verse you referenced:

    Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, neither in the age to come.

    The age in which Christ made this statement is the age of Law. The "age to come" is the church age. Their sin will not be forgiven in either of those two ages BUT it will be forgiven in the final age - the Lake of Fire age.

    You said:
    Paul is one example of a man who came to Christ. His experience does not represent how everyone will come to Christ.

    Paul DID NOT come to Christ. Christ came to Paul and give Him the Early Rain of the Spirit without Paul asking Him to do so. Paul was on His way to Damascus to "ravage the church". Paul hated Christ but all that changed in an instant when Christ "suddenly" came to His temple (Paul). Paul's conversion is the pattern that everyone else will follow:

    1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    Mankind's salvation has to happen this way, otherwise we would have to contribute our own "works" in order to be saved. But scripture says we cannot contribute anything in our carnal minded spiritually flawed condition we have from birth.

    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    You said:
    It is God’s work in us that leads us to repentance but we must choose to act in cooperation with His guidance in order to receive salvation. Romans 2:4-5.

    Romans 2:4-5, nor does any verse say that "we must choose to act in cooperation with His guidance in order to receive salvation". Scripture says that no man can seeks after God or can understand Him. Christ is the only one who does. The only solution therefore is for Christ to come to us and give us the Holy Spirit. He does not ask us for permission before He does it. He just does it because of His grace.
    As I showed you, Paul is the example of how we receive the Holy Spirit.

    Unless Christ comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit FIRST, no one can call Jesus "Lord":

    1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

    Mankind has no "free will" power to call Jesus "Lord". We must be given the Holy Spirit FIRST before it is possible. That is why Christ comes to us and gives us the Spirit without our permission.

    You said:
    I’m not sure what you mean “when Christ comes to them a second time”. What scripture is this referring to?

    The Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit is part of the Great Mystery of Christ and His church (Eph 5:32). They are the greatest mystery hidden in scripture. Christ must come to us TWO times.

    Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the EARLY and LATTER rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former (Early) rain unto the earth.

    Deu 11:14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first (Early) rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

    Christ taught about the Early and Latter Rain quite often but He did not use those terms. He taught the Early and Latter Rain in the parable of the Ten Virgins (shown in my original post of this thread). He used them in His teaching about spiritual understanding in Mark 8:21-25. He used them in John 8:3-10 about His teaching on when a person comes out from under the Law.

    Christ showed them in Paul's conversion which is the pattern everyone must follow in order to be saved. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road when Paul first called Him "Lord". Then after being "blind" and "in bed" for "three" days (types a spiritual process), Ananias (symbolizes Christ) comes to Paul and gives him the Latter Rain.

    The Latter Rain is the same baptism the apostles received in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost. The apostles' Early Rain was their baptism into Moses. They were a part of the Nation of Israel who was "called out".

    The Early and Latter Rain is "typed" by the Nation of Israel after the nation was "called out" of Egypt. The Early Rain, like I said, is the Baptism of Moses when they passed through the Red Sea. Joshua and Caleb are "types" of the First-Fruits. The whole nation "falls away" but only Joshua and Caleb live though the 40 years in the wilderness to cross the Jordan River (Latter Rain) into the Promised Land.
    All believers who receive the Early Rain (the Called Out, the church), experience the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness. It is during this time that we "fall away" and are deceived by Satan.

    Christ also "typed" the Early and Latter Rain baptisms. His baptism by John is a "type" of the Early Rain. Christ then immediately goes into the wilderness for "40" days and "fasts" which types called out believers lack of being able to eat the true "bread" from heaven during this time. Christ is likewise tempted by Satan at this time, just as called out believers are. The stones (Law, works) offered by Satan to Christ are rejected by Him. However, called out believers eat the stones without hesitation. Since Christ rejects the stones, He does not "fall away" like carnal mankind does. Christ "typed" the Latter Rain at the cross (we are crucified with Christ at the Latter Rain).

    Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy also types the Early and Latter Rain. I have written a short paper on this prophecy if you are interested. The prophecy teaches the timeline of how Christ saves all mankind. It is not about future end-time events.

    The wide path and the narrow path also teach the Early and Latter Rain. We all start out on the wide path when we are "called out" (Early Rain) and if we are chosen, we experience the Latter Rain and travel the narrow path.

    There are more examples of the Early and Latter Rain in scripture but I will end with this simple one:

    Matt 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

    Upon receiving the Early Rain, we all stumble and fall on the stone (the Law, works), but upon receiving the Latter Rain, we (our carnal natures which cause us to approach Christ by "works") are utterly crush to powder by the stone after it is written in our hearts.

    Joe





     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
  10. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Yes He opened the door to the Father's Kingdom but not all who say Lord Lord shall enter for they are still thinking worldly rather than of the ways of the Kingdom. Jesus, not man, set the example and taught the counter-culture of the Kingdom. Man, as history has shown, does not take kindly to counter-cultures, especially those of peace and love. They see no way of physically or financially benefitting from it.

    Which is why I continually say that according to God man has it backwards. We need to be in the world bur not of it by simply living in a non threatening way of the Kingdom which puts others before self interest in that we don't take for ourselves that which may harm or oppress others. That is not works but simply a smarter way of life that follows the will of God rather than the usual thinking of man. Those are not the works of man which in themselves tend to be self indulgent.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
  11. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    For consideration:

    Romans 8:29 For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son. From this verse we can see that the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD. Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation as if our earthly life was the same as our created spirit life. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?

    GOD obviously does not before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, as Rom 8:29 just said predestination means and as per Matthew 7:21, 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ which tells us what knowing means, emphasising the idea that loving is knowing and knowing about has no love. James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. Jesus obviously knew about the demons and knew about the miracle workers but this knowing contained no love as it is plain; He never knew them.
    Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. This means that foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As one commentator stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.

    Now this question comes to mind: if it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge, on what basis does GOD "before life" love some and not the rest?

    1. Merit based Election before Creation?
    The basis can not be, as some have suggested, some merit in the creatures, first because no one exists yet; second, because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and third, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life, but rather on HIS unmerited favour:

    Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth... Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy. Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not "before life" love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.

    2. Election to Damnation before Creation Serves HIS Purpose?
    Others have suggested that GOD "before life" loved only some because this is more beneficial for HIS purposes than if HE before life loved everyone. The explanation goes something like this: The loved ones' eternal joy is directly proportional to their knowledge, appreciation, of GOD and the wonderfulness of their salvation. Therefore an increase of good comes forth from the eternal damnation of some persons for by their damnation, that is, the outcome of Adam's decision to sin, and HIS "before life" decision not to love these persons, two types of eternal blessings supposedly occur for the rest.

    First, a fuller appreciation of several of God's attributes is made possible, which opportunity wouldn't be possible if all lived forever, that is, if HE "before life" loved them all. These attributes are usually said to be HIS justness (retribution, wrath) holiness and omnipotence.

    Secondly, the truth regarding the elect's end apart from Christ's salvation is made fully known, which full knowledge makes possible the fuller appreciation of HIS salvation, for this salvation (hence, HIS mercy too) would not be so fully appreciated without the graphic depiction of both heaven and hell.

    Third, Others even go so far as to say that their damnation is absolutely necessary in order that the purpose of GOD be able to be fulfilled by HIS elect, and they offer this explanation: In order to live in eternity with GOD, we must live fully in the truth, which necessity necessitates having a perfect appreciation of GOD's attributes and HIS salvation, and that this perfect appreciation by HIS elect creatures is made possible first, only through witnessing HIS triumph over and judgement upon HIS enemies, and second, only when HIS perfection and our life in Christ are contrasted with the complete imperfections of the damned and the end we would have had, had HE not saved us.

    Now, these are very hard positions to hold, for they fail on many accounts.
    First,
    they both fail to answer or give a reasonable basis for why HE chose the particular ones HE did and why HE did not choose the rest. In other words, they both deny the faithful and unselfish character of GOD's love, in that they limit it without just cause and look on it as somewhat capricious.

    Secondly, they both necessitate the unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential. In other words we must accept, for example, that in GOD'S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless [and the more sinful (or sick) the better].

    Third, they both fail to satisfactorily answer the question of how the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect than would be the damnation of but one, since it is the moral depravity of those in hell that is supposed to make for the increased appreciation / perfection and not the quantity of persons therein.

    Fourthly, they both put a very small value on the worth of the individual creature in the eyes of GOD.

    Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge / forelove does not include everyone can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures and since a reasonable answer has not been put forward for why GOD does it particularly, we are left with but two conclusions: We must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.

    This would mean that there is no reason for HIS particular "before life" love. [Aside: as I understand it, this is Calvin's failure to understand this doctrine correctly.] GOD's election / foreknowing is thus based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we cannot find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?

    Now, according to pre-conception theology, the "before life" love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-life approval of some and rejection of the rest is based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature (in Sheol, before physical creation) and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM. Therein is the reason why HE loved some "before this life" and why HE did not love the rest.

    Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves and some had not. Some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose and some were still able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly, (angels) and others only if HE was infallibly gracious (election) to them (His fallen church, the sinful good seed). Yes, and He predestined these to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other evil ones for the Day of Judgement and established them for the correction of the fallen elect.

    Now, I ask you, which doctrine is the more scriptural and reasonable and compatible with the attributes of GOD?

    2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. This Scripture does not prove that we existed before our conception. The reason I am including it is that I believe that it does not invalidate pre-conception theology, and I am sure a lot of people will think that it and others like it do. May I submit that when the Scriptures speak of works in relation to our election, they are referring to only our works after we're born, ie, no one was elected on account of any works they would do in this life.

    Now, if there is anyone who would like to disagree with me on this and would like to debate whether Paul intended that our pre-life works were also to be included in the works that were excluded as part of the basis of GOD's election, I would be very interested in seeing your argument. I suppose this isn't necessary, but I would like to first point out that any such argument must admit to our pre-existence.

    The second thing I would like to point out is that we were called according to HIS purpose. This must mean so that we could fulfil HIS purpose for us. But if this is so, then there must be an uncoerced choice on our part if we are ever to have the possibility of glorifying GOD. His purpose for us necessitates a free will choice to join that purpose or it is a tape recorder type of agreement and meaningless. Therefore I say that being called according to HIS purpose and grace is almost exactly the same as saying, being called in accord with our uncoerced choice and HIS covenant, and if making that choice is a work, since earthly works are out, then it is the same as saying, Being called in accord with a pre-conception work and HIS gracious covenant to those who perforemed that work.

    The third thing I would like to point out is that the angels are elected too. 1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels... Angels are a lot different than men (at least, that is what many believe), ie, they do not have what is usually called racial solidarity. This means that they have to make all their own choices. No one else can make them for them and they can not be held accountable for someone else's evil choices. In other words, Adam's choices do not affect them at all (supposedly). Perhaps you would like to tell me on what basis GOD elected only some of them?

    If HIS choice was not on the basis of their individual choices, then they had to be elected before the satanic rebellion, at least. But if GOD's election took place before the satanic rebellion, would this not lead us into the pretty incredulous situation of some unblemished creatures being unjustly un-predestined to remain in heaven, (or: predestined for Hell)? And what reasonable basis can we put forward for this situation other than HE simply did not want them to be with HIM forever? This situation does not look too good, does it?

    Well then, what if no one was elected before the rebellion, that is, what if GOD's election took place after the rebellion? Then GOD's election took place after they all had made an eternal choice, and presumably that choice would be taken into account when GOD was doing HIS electing. It would have to be if HE was holy and just. Now, the main thing I am trying to bring out with all of this is that when we just begin to consider the election of angels, we run into some pretty unreasonable implications if we leave out their choice as being a part of the basis of their election, and the only other real alternative necessitates that we accept that their eternal choice was at least a part of the basis of their election.

    Well, if you are willing to accept the possibility of their choice, works, being a part of the basis of their election, why can that not be a part of the basis of ours too? May I submit that the only thing going against that possibility is the presupposition that Paul, in 2 Timothy 1:9 is excluding all our works, and I have to admit, that is what it seems to say, that is, what it seems to say until we look at Paul's definition of elective works in
    Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth. Now, I do not think that I will get much argument when I say that the works of 2 Timothy 1:9 are the same works as are mentioned in this verse in Romans. In other words, Paul defines works the same in both verses. And just how does he define works? Well, in Romans, Paul is referring to Genesis 25:22 And the children struggled together within her. The children are Jacob and Esau, and Paul says that at the time of GOD's statement to Rebecca, to the effect that the elder shall serve the younger, that neither of them had done any good or evil (works).

    But the reason Rebecca had prayed to GOD was that she was having such a hard time of it because Jacob and Esau were fighting so much in the womb. Now, if they were fighting, [the Hebrew literally means "trying to crush each other to pieces" according to Strong's], at least one, if not both, had to be being evil, that is, doing evil works, since it is impossible that both were following the Holy Spirit in their struggles with each other. So, although it is possible that neither was being good, it is impossible that neither was being evil.

    Well now, we either have a blatant contradiction, the children were being evil before birth, and must dismiss Paul's works theology as being somewhat amiss, or we have to admit that the Pauline definition of works does not exclude pre-birth works from being a part of the basis of our election. In fact, by his omission of their pre-birth works in those works that are excluded as being a part of the basis of our election, he must be inferring that some pre-birth works have something to do with it. To say this all another way, what we have here in Romans is a classic example of a Scripture with some missing words, that is, what Paul is really saying is, neither having done any good or evil (works on the post-birth side of the womb) that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works (done on the post-birth side of the womb) but of HIM that calleth (when one is on the post-birth side of the womb).

    Thus I contend see that Paul did not exclude our pre-birth works from being a part of the basis of our election.
     
  12. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear timothyu,

    You said:
    "We need to" be in the world but not of it by simply living in a non threatening way of the Kingdom which puts others before self interest in that we don't take for ourselves that which may harm or oppress others.

    Those three words "we need to" means we must do something to earn our salvation. Can't you see that belief means you are approaching Christ by "works"? If our works are enough to save us, then why doesn't God accept our works for salvation? Salvation is by faith alone. We must "rest" from our works and we do when we are "in Christ". 100% of the works needed for our salvation come from Christ.

    If a person believes that Christ is not the Savior of the world as scripture says He is, then they must believe one of these two statements:

    1). All the "works" of saving mankind are the works of Christ and He fails.
    2). A person must contribute their own work toward their own salvation and they fail.


    Both beliefs are untrue. The only other option is to believe that Christ is truly is the Savior of the world because all the works are His and He cannot fail.

    Joe


     
  13. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    No it means we need to be alive in this world.
     
  14. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Yes, He brought about the Kingdom whereas common man could not.
     
  15. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear TedT,

    Rom 8:29 Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren.

    God foreknows all mankind because He creates us into the people He wants us to be to satisfy His own purposes. God is not a time traveler or fortune teller. He knows the end from the beginning because His "works" make the end turn out just as He planned.

    Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

    Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

    God "declares the end from the beginning" because He "will bring it to pass" and He will "accomplish that which I please".

    You are reading into Rom 8:29 very unscriptural things which are not there.

    You are stating that because God foreknows mankind's "works", He predestinates the people who will do the "good works" but condemns the ones who will do the "evil works". That understanding is a "works" based belief system which God rejects. We are saved solely by the works of Christ within us. Even our profession of faith and our calling Jesus "Lord" is the work of Christ within us.

    Our profession of faith is NOT our work. We can only call Jesus "Lord" after Christ comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit. And when He does, we have no free will ability to do anything but call Him "Lord'. We can't reject or curse Christ any longer once Christ does His work within us.

    1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

    Without the Holy Spirit, no man can possibly seek after God or understand Him, much less call Him "Lord".

    All mankind, in their spiritually flawed created condition, are evil and have no good works. No man can boast about anything to justify their own salvation. Our salvation happens ONLY because of the Grace of God which is manifested in Jesus Christ, who comes to us and does 100% of the work necessary to save each of us.

    The Elect, who are the First-Fruits, are predestined to be saved FIRST (that is why they are FIRST-Fruits). Both their salvation and "good works" happen not because God foreknew that they would accept Christ (because they can't in their created condition). They happen because of God's work within them, solely to satisfy His own purposes. The rest of mankind is predestined to be saved at the end of the final age.

    Since our salvation is 100% the work of Christ, how can it not happen? It will happen because God knows the end from the beginning. His "work" will make it so.

    Joe
     
  16. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Good day,

    I never knew you...


    Means Jesus never entered into an intimate relationship with these people...

    He knew them in some sense as he created them....

    He never knew (verb) them.

    Thayer Definition:
    1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
    1a) to become known
    2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
    2a) to understand
    2b) to know
    3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
    4) to become acquainted with, to know

    Part of Speech: verb

    John Gill notes:

    I never knew you; which must be understood consistent with the omniscience of Christ; for as the omniscient God he knew their persons and their works, and that they were workers of iniquity; he knew what they had been doing all their days under the guise of religion; he knew the principles of all their actions, and the views they had in all they did; nothing is hid from him. But, as words of knowledge often carry in them the ideas of affection, and approbation, see Psa_1:6 the meaning of Christ here is, I never had any love, or affection for you; I never esteemed you; I never made any account of you, as mine, as belonging to me; I never approved of you, nor your conduct; I never had any converse, communication, nor society with you, nor you with me. The Persic version reads it, "I have not known you of old", from ancient times, or from everlasting; I never knew you in my Father's choice, and my own, nor in my Father's gift to me, nor in the everlasting covenant of grace; I never knew you as my sheep, for whom, in time, I died, and called by name; I never knew you believe in me, nor love me, or mine; I have seen you in my house, preaching in my name, and at my table administering mine ordinance; but I never knew you exalt my person, blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; you talk of the works you have done, I never knew you do one good work in all your lives, with a single eye to my glory; wherefore, I will neither hear, nor see you; I have nothing to do with you. In this sense the phrase is used in the Talmud (y):

    In Him,

    Bill
     
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  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    I never knew you also implies He never loved them !
     
  18. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear Bill,
    Thanks for your comments.

    If you have read my comments, you are probably aware of what I believe the phrase "I never knew you" represents (#3 of your list). Of course, it is spiritual intercourse and not literal. It happens "within us" and that is what produces a child of God. It is one of several analogies Christ uses to teach about the pathway of salvation.
    Joe
     
  19. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Good Day, Joe


    I did see that after I posted.

    IN Him,

    Bill
     
  20. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear Bill,
    I'm not saying your understanding is wrong.

    My understanding comes from applying the words of Christ in the following manner:

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life.

    Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


    1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

    Christ words are "spirit" and they carry meanings different than what "man's wisdom teaches". In other words, Christ teaches us by "another tongue". This language is His spiritual language.

    Christ also teaches in bits in pieces, a little here and a little there. To understand His truth, we must understand the meaning of His spiritual words which He uses. Then we need to take that particular teaching where the words are used and combine it with another portion of scripture which teaches on the same subject. For this reason, the truth of scripture remains hidden to most believers. But Christ had a reason for teaching in this manner. It was so that ONLY those believers whom He has "chosen from the foundation of the world", who have been given spiritual eyes and ears, will understand His truth. In this age, only Christ's Chosen Elect (the First-Fruits) have their spiritual blindness healed. For everyone else, Christ will remain hidden so that they will "fall backward and be broken". This is the same event as Paul's teaching on "falling away". Falling Away is a return to works for one's salvation and when a believer does this, they are broken (lose their salvation). Faith is the only acceptable approach to Christ and His Father.

    So when a person realizes that Christ only taught in this manner as explained by the above verses, then it is easier to understand that the word "knew" carries a meaning that is different than what man's wisdom teaches. To understand the meaning, we are to compare "spiritual with spiritual".

    Below is another verse that uses the spiritual word "knew". In this verse, its meaning is clear.

    Mat 1:24-25 But Joseph, having awoke up from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him, and took to him his wife, and KNEW her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

    For this reason, I understand the phrase "I never knew you" to be related to the marriage analogy.
    Joe
     
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