THE MEANING OF GAL 5:18 ?

oikonomia

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I have not said anything thing like that “law” can be defined in any sense that fits the reader, so you are burning a straw man.
Why did you chime in with that information? It was a burning red herring.

Red herring - Something that draws attention away from the matter being discussed or dealt with.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
I made the case from the context for why it would make the most sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to he law of sin and why it would make sense to interpret it as referring to the Mosaic Law, . . .
It would make more sense to you because you want to exalt the Mosiac Law above the Son of God.
It is true that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus frees the Spirit walking believer from "the law of sin and of death".

Galatians 5:18
is about freedom from law keeping Judaism which was being preached
as a different and competitive false teaching about "another Jesus." That Galatians needed to be freed from the legalism of this "another Jesus" so-called "gospel." They were perverting the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I marvel that you are so quickly removing from Him who has called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel,
Which is not another gospel, only there are some who trouble you and desire to pervert the gospel of Christ. (Gal. 1:6,7)

Paul learned Christ's grace was perfect for initial saving.
And he learned this grace was effective for living righteously.
And he learned this grace was good for terminating all within him contrary to God.
And he learned this grace would qualify him for the reward of co-reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom.

Because at every stage the grace of Christ was so effective he would not nullify it.
He would let this grace have total operation in him.
And nullifying it implied Christ died for nothing.

I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing. (Gal. 2:21)
 
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B Griffin

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Thank you, those verses should be interpreted as referring to multiple different categories of law, such as Galatians 5:18 and 6:2 don’t both refer to the Law of Christ, and to multiple categories even within the same verse, such as in Galatians 2:19. There is a law that is God’s instructions for how to bear fruit for Him and a law the hinders us from bearing fruit for God that we need to die to in order to be free to live to God, but if someone if someone doesn’t bother to discern which law is being referred to, then they can easily misinterpret Galatians 2:19 as many do as saying that we need to die to the Law of God that is His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him and embrace the law of sin that hinders us from obey the Law of God.
Wow! My head is spinning. What do you think you get from redefining law to not mean the law? And why not try to understand what is written instead of turning it into something else?
  • For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. (Ga 2:19)​
  • Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. (Ro 7:4)​
  • But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. (Ro 7:6)​
  • 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (Ro 7:7–12)​
By not seeing the function of the law to bring about death, it is impossible to see the resurrection from the dead that being in Christ brings.
Likewise, if someone is not careful, then they can mistake what Paul said against being justified by works of the law as speaking against obeying the Law of God. This is why Galatians is easily the most misunderstood book of the Bible.
The phrase "works of the law" does relate to the "Law of God". Galatians 3:10-12 proves it.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” (Ga 3:10–12)​

The law is good, but it is only good if it is used lawfully (1 Ti 1:8). But those who are of the works of the law use the law unlawfully. They think rightness with God is through obedience to God's laws. They don't see the curse of the law which condemns everyone who does not obey it completely. And they don't see righteousness through faith as being different in nature to righteousness through obedience to the law.
What exactly do you mean by legalistic Christian living?
Thinking and acting as though obedience to God's laws gains or maintains a right relationship with Him.
If God is legalistic for graciously giving us the gift of His law
No, God does not orient Himself to the law in order to keep Himself from sinning. He is without sin and He is incapable of sinning.

But we are not without sin and we need a Savior. Without the law, we would not have known sin, nor would we have known we needed a Savior. Yes, God was gracious in laying down the law to teach us these things, so that knowing them we may turn to Christ and find forgivness for our sins. So the ministry of death was a good thing.
and Jesus is legalistic for spending his ministry graciously teaching us to obey it by word and by example,
If mimicking Jesus is the pathway to eternal life, then saved people are only those who give blind sight, who make the lame walk, who cause the deaf to hear, who rais the dead to life, who turn water into wine, who walk on water, who bear the sins of all maknind, who cannot be held by death, and who are without sin. But Jesus did not say this was the way to eternal life. He said we would live because of Him.
The lusts of the flesh are all against the Mosaic Law,
Legalism is a work of the flesh. See Gal 3:3 and Gal 5:20.
so the Spirit leading us to not gratify the lusts of the flesh means that the Spirit is leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. God guides is by graciously teaching us His instructions, so it is contradictory to think that God leading means that we don’t need God’s instructions to order our steps.
Legalism turns walking in the Spirit into another form of obedience to the law.
The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do the things that God has revealed to be sin through the Mosaic Law. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of Mosaic Law that puts us into bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.
The freedom we have in Christ is two-fold. First, there is no condemnation for the sins of the flesh (Ro 8:1). Second, we are made new creatures in Christ wherein the new man is "truly righteous and holy" (Eph 4:24). That is why we can say that our bodies are dead because of sin, but our spirits are alive because of righteousness (Ro 8:10). Ignoring the sins of the flesh are forgiven and ignoring that our righteousness is in the new man are halmarks of legalism.
 
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Soyeong

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Why did you chime in with that information? It was a burning red herring.

Red herring - Something that draws attention away from the matter being discussed or dealt with.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,
It is not red herring to point out that someone's argument is a straw man.

It would make more sense to you because you want to exalt the Mosiac Law above the Son of God.
I've never said anything like that, so you are also burning a straw man. Why would it makes sense to think that we aren't under the Law of God when we are led by God?

It is true that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus frees the Spirit walking believer from "the law of sin and of death".
In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death.

Galatians 5:18 is about freedom from law keeping Judaism
In Galatians 5:16-26, it is contrasting the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything listed as works of the flesh that are agains the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. So you saying that we are freedom from law keeping Judaism and are free to gratify the desires of the flesh is the opposite of what this passage is saying. If we are need free to gratuity the desires of the flesh that are contrary to obeying the Mosaic Law, then we are not free from keeping it.

which was being preached as a different and competitive false teaching about "another Jesus." That Galatians needed to be freed from the legalism of this "another Jesus" so-called "gospel." They were perverting the gospel of the grace of Christ.

I marvel that you are so quickly removing from Him who has called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel,
Which is not another gospel, only there are some who trouble you and desire to pervert the gospel of Christ. (Gal. 1:6,7)
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/grace, which Paul also taught taught the same Gospel of the Kingdom/grace (Acts 20:24-25) that was based on the Law of Moses (Acts 28:23). You should not twist what Paul said against another Gospel as speaking against the Gospel that Jesus and Paul taught in order to cover that you are teaching another Jesus.

Paul learned Christ's grace was perfect for initial saving.
And he learned this grace was effective for living righteously.
And he learned this grace was good for terminating all within him contrary to God.
And he learned this grace would qualify him for the reward of co-reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom.

Because at every stage the grace of Christ was so effective he would not nullify it.
He would let this grace have total operation in him.
And nullifying it implied Christ died for nothing.

I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness is through law, then Christ has died for nothing. (Gal. 2:21)
In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. While we do not earn our righteousness as the result of having first obeyed Mosaic Law, if we should return to the lawlessness that Christ gave himself to redeem us from, then that would also mean that he died for nothing.
 
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Soyeong

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Wow! My head is spinning. What do you think you get from redefining law to not mean the law? And why not try to understand what is written instead of turning it into something else?
  • For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. (Ga 2:19)​
  • Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. (Ro 7:4)​
  • But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. (Ro 7:6)​
  • 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (Ro 7:7–12)​
By not seeing the function of the law to bring about death, it is impossible to see the resurrection from the dead that being in Christ brings
Paul concluded Romans 7 by saying:

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

So I did not redefine the law to not mean law or suggest that we should turn what was written into something else, but rather I pointed out that Paul spoke about the Law of God in contrast with the law of sin, so whenever Paul refers to a law, then it should be worth investigating whether he was referring to the Law of God, the law of sin, or one of the other categories of law that he spoke about. For example, in Romans 7:5, Paul spoke about a law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto to death. Does it make sense to you to interpret that as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to best fruit unto death? Or does that match better with Paul's description of the law of sin? Does it make sense to think that there is something innate about the law to love our neighbor as ourselves that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or does that law teach us how to bear fruit for God?

In Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that it was not that which is good that brought death to him, but sin in reference to the law of sin, yet you trying to use his words to say that it was that which is good that brought death to him,

.

The phrase "works of the law" does relate to the "Law of God". Galatians 3:10-12 proves it.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” (Ga 3:10–12)​
According to Deuteronomy 27-28, relying on the Book of the Law is the way to be blessed while not relying on it is the way to be cursed, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul equating from Deuteronomy 27-28 in order to support a point that is arguing against it by saying that relying on it is the way to be cursed and not relying on it is the way to not be cursed. Rather, the way to be curse is by not relying on the Book of the Law, so those who rely on works of the law instead thereby come under that curse.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul connected a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Law of God will live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Law of God. Moreover, the context the rest of the chapter of Habakkuk 2 contrasts the righteous who are living by faith with those who are not living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. Again, God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obediently trusting in His instructions, it is contradictory to think that we should trust God, but not His instructions, and to say interpret Galatians 3:10-12 as saying that God's instructions are untrustworthy/not of faith is to deny the trustworthiness/faithfulness of God.

The law is good, but it is only good if it is used lawfully (1 Ti 1:8). But those who are of the works of the law use the law unlawfully. They think rightness with God is through obedience to God's laws. They don't see the curse of the law which condemns everyone who does not obey it completely. And they don't see righteousness through faith as being different in nature to righteousness through obedience to the law.
Why does it make sense to you to think that rightness with God comes through refusing to obey His instructions rather than through obeying them? Again, it is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God, but not in His instructions, but rather relying on God's instructions is the way to have faith in Him, and it is by that faith that we are made righteous. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between coming under God's blessing or his curse is about choosing which mount to climb, about choosing whether we are going to serve God by obeying His commands or whether we are going to chase after other gods by turning aside from His commands.

Thinking and acting as though obedience to God's laws gains or maintains a right relationship with Him.
God gave the Israelites instructions for how to have a right relationship with Him, so why does it make sense to you to think that the way to have a right relationship with Him is not by following those instructions?

No, God does not orient Himself to the law in order to keep Himself from sinning. He is without sin and He is incapable of sinning.
I didn't claim that He did.

But we are not without sin and we need a Savior. Without the law, we would not have known sin, nor would we have known we needed a Savior. Yes, God was gracious in laying down the law to teach us these things, so that knowing them we may turn to Christ and find forgivness for our sins. So the ministry of death was a good thing.
Our salvation is from sin and God's law is how we know what sin is, so living in obedience to it through faith in Christ is the content of his gift of saving us from not living in obedience to it.

If mimicking Jesus is the pathway to eternal life, then saved people are only those who give blind sight, who make the lame walk, who cause the deaf to hear, who rais the dead to life, who turn water into wine, who walk on water, who bear the sins of all maknind, who cannot be held by death, and who are without sin. But Jesus did not say this was the way to eternal life. He said we would live because of Him.
In 1 Peter 2:21-22, we are to follow Christ's example of refraining from sin, which is speaking about obeying the Mosaic Law, not about doing miracles. In Luke 10:25-28 and Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by being God's commandments, and in Hebrews 5:9, he has become a source of eternal life for those who obey him. Jesus is God's word made flesh, so obeying God's word is not a different way to eternal life than because of him.

Legalism is a work of the flesh. See Gal 3:3 and Gal 5:20.
In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law, and in Galatians 5:19-21, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, so obeying it is not a work in the flesh.

Legalism turns walking in the Spirit into another form of obedience to the law.
In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of sin. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrasted with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Mosaic Law.

The freedom we have in Christ is two-fold. First, there is no condemnation for the sins of the flesh (Ro 8:1). Second, we are made new creatures in Christ wherein the new man is "truly righteous and holy" (Eph 4:24). That is why we can say that our bodies are dead because of sin, but our spirits are alive because of righteousness (Ro 8:10). Ignoring the sins of the flesh are forgiven and ignoring that our righteousness is in the new man are halmarks of legalism.
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freeform from lawlessness in order to be free to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so verses like Romans 8:1 that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Ephesians 2:10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so again it is only referring to those who are doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law.

Here is a simple graphic that explains much...

Death <---- Law <---- You ----> Jesus ----> Life
In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse. In Deuteronomy 32:46-47, the Mosaic Law is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, it is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so living in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the content of God's gift of eternal life in Christ. It is contradictory to think that God leads us to life while also thinking that He gives instructions that lead to death.
 
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Soyeong

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So then by all means please explain exactly what it is that is innate to the command to love our neighbor as ourselves that stirs up sinful passions in order bear fruit unto death. Do you really think that God’s goal in giving His law was to lead His children to bear fruit unto death? If so, then why are you following a God that you think leads his people to death? Wouldn’t it be better instead to follow the God of Israel who leads His children to bear fruit unto life?
 
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bbbbbbb

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There is a curious difference of definition of law in English. One definition is that of principle. For example, we have the law of gravity, which is nothing more than the principle of gravity. Gravity does not require any form of obedience to effectually work. A second definition is that of commandment. Thus we have human legislatures whose job is to develop commandments which must be obeyed and these commandments are typically associated with punishment for disobedience. Thus, we have numerous laws.

Both definitions of law appear in the Bible. We have the law of sin, which is nothing more than the principle of sin which is at work in the world. It does not require conscious effort on the part of humans to work. In contrast, we have things such as the law of Moses which does require conscious effort to obey. In particular, the law of Moses is not a universal principle applicable to all people, but was given solely to God's chosen people, Israel, through Moses. This was a national law, distinct from other national laws and codes, such as the code of Hammurabai.
 
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B Griffin

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So then by all means please explain exactly what it is that is innate to the command to love our neighbor as ourselves that stirs up sinful passions in order bear fruit unto death. Do you really think that God’s goal in giving His law was to lead His children to bear fruit unto death? If so, then why are you following a God that you think leads his people to death? Wouldn’t it be better instead to follow the God of Israel who leads His children to bear fruit unto life?
When I was a new Christian, I began reading the Bible as I would read a book, not stopping to ponder the things I didn't quite understand, but continuing reading so that I could understand the flow of the arguments and how one concept related to the next. Over the years, this has paid substantial rewards, and the number of things I do not understand has shrunken considerably.

Several times in Romans, Paul makes statements that he knows will cause some of his readers to come to the wrong conclusion. Then he asks if the wrong conclusion is right. Then he gives an explanation to straighten out the wrong conclusion. This is the case in Romans 7:4-12.

Here are the statements that cause some readers to misunderstand "the law":

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. (Romans 7:4-6)​

Paul knew that some people would read these verses (especially verse 5) and wrongly conclude that "the law" is sinful. That is your wrong conclusion. Since you cannot accept that your wrong conclusion is true about the law of God, you change "the law" in verse 5 to be "the law of sin" and not the law of God. Paul correctly anticipated your reaction and set the record straight when he wrote what followed:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (Ro 7:7-12)​

This is the basic purpose of the law. It is holy, just, and good. But we are not. When we see the law, not only does it reveal that we are law-breakers, it also reveals that we are law-breakers in many different ways. We felt good about ourselves before we knew the law. But when we heard about and learned the law, our opinion about ourselves changed, and we rightly understood that we are among the walking dead.

But glory be to God, we then become dead to this function of the law through the body of Christ when we were joined to and made one with Christ, and now we serve Him in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of trying in vain to conform to the letter of the law.
 
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keepitsimple144

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Do you really think that God’s goal in giving His law was to lead His children to bear fruit unto death? If so, then why are you following a God that you think leads his people to death? Wouldn’t it be better instead to follow the God of Israel who leads His children to bear fruit unto life?
When I was a new Christian, I began reading the Bible as I would read a book, not stopping to ponder the things I didn't quite understand, but continuing reading so that I could understand the flow of the arguments and how one concept related to the next. Over the years, this has paid substantial rewards, and the number of things I do not understand has shrunken considerably.

...Here are the statements that cause some readers to misunderstand "the law":
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. ... (Romans 7:4-6)​
The fruit of righteousness will be peace, and the outcome of righteousness, everlasting security. Isaiah 32:17
 
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Soyeong

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When I was a new Christian, I began reading the Bible as I would read a book, not stopping to ponder the things I didn't quite understand, but continuing reading so that I could understand the flow of the arguments and how one concept related to the next. Over the years, this has paid substantial rewards, and the number of things I do not understand has shrunken considerably.

Several times in Romans, Paul makes statements that he knows will cause some of his readers to come to the wrong conclusion. Then he asks if the wrong conclusion is right. Then he gives an explanation to straighten out the wrong conclusion. This is the case in Romans 7:4-12.

Here are the statements that cause some readers to misunderstand "the law":

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. (Romans 7:4-6)​


Paul knew that some people would read these verses (especially verse 5) and wrongly conclude that "the law" is sinful. That is your wrong conclusion. Since you cannot accept that your wrong conclusion is true about the law of God, you change "the law" in verse 5 to be "the law of sin" and not the law of God. Paul correctly anticipated your reaction and set the record straight when he wrote what followed:
In Romans 6:16-23, if we present ourselves as obedient slaves, then we are slaves to the one who we obey, either sin, which leads to dead, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. We were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching which we were committed, and having been set free from sin we have become slaves of righteousness. We are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification as the goal of sanctification eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedient to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life, and if you miss this division between being slaves to sin or to righteousness, then you're going to completely miss Paul's point in Romans 7. Being slaves to sin bears fruit unto death, but being slaves of righteousness bear fruit unto life.

So in Roman 7:5, it is not the being slaves of righteousness sin obedience to the Law of God that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, but rather it is being slaves to the law of sin that does that. A law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is a law that is sinful, however, Romans 7:7 says that the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, so these verses can't both be referring to the same law, but rather Paul was contrasting the law of sin with the Law of God. In Romans 7:22, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, so if Romans 7:5 were referring to the Law of God, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, which is completely absurd. Paul knew that people would wrongly understand Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God, so he said in Romans 7:7 to clarify that he was not speaking about the Law of God.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (Ro 7:7-12)​


This is the basic purpose of the law. It is holy, just, and good. But we are not. When we see the law, not only does it reveal that we are law-breakers, it also reveals that we are law-breakers in many different ways. We felt good about ourselves before we knew the law. But when we heard about and learned the law, our opinion about ourselves changed, and we rightly understood that we are among the walking dead.
In Romans 7:8, it is the law of sin taking the the opportunity through the Law of God to stir up sinful passions, so sin is dead apart from the law of sin. In other words, if it weren't for the law of sin, then we would have no problems with always living in obedience to the Law of God. So there is nothing innate to the command to love our neighbor and stirs up sinus passions in order to bear fruit unto death, but rather there is something within us that reacts to the Law of God that causes sin to increase, which is the law of sin. In. Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that the Law of God is holy, righteous, and good and that it was not that which is good that brought death to him, but you are trying to use his words to say that it is that which is good that brought death to him instead of the law of sin.
 
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B Griffin

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In Romans 6:16-23, if we present ourselves as obedient slaves, then we are slaves to the one who we obey, either sin, which leads to dead, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness. We were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching which we were committed, and having been set free from sin we have become slaves of righteousness. We are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification as the goal of sanctification eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedient to God's law is the content of His gift of eternal life, and if you miss this division between being slaves to sin or to righteousness, then you're going to completely miss Paul's point in Romans 7. Being slaves to sin bears fruit unto death, but being slaves of righteousness bear fruit unto life.
The greater misunderstanding is thinking that a person can morph back and forth between being a slave of sin and a slave of righteousness based on who they choose to obey at the time. Not understanding that receiving the gift of eternal life permanently releases us from the condemnation due us for breaking the requirements of the law and creates a spirit that is alive to God, completely in line with Him, with no distance between us is the basis for not understanding the function of the law to drive people to Christ to find forgiveness for their sins. We see this in the rear-view mirror after we are saved. It is not something that can be seen ahead of salvation.
So in Roman 7:5, it is not the being slaves of righteousness sin obedience to the Law of God that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, but rather it is being slaves to the law of sin that does that. A law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is a law that is sinful, however, Romans 7:7 says that the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, so these verses can't both be referring to the same law, but rather Paul was contrasting the law of sin with the Law of God. In Romans 7:22, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, so if Romans 7:5 were referring to the Law of God, then that would mean that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, which is completely absurd. Paul knew that people would wrongly understand Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God, so he said in Romans 7:7 to clarify that he was not speaking about the Law of God.
We find ourselves in the same place we were last paragraph. You do not seem to grasp the carnality of the flesh (which is not and cannot be made subject to God's laws) and the redeemed person's spirit which has become one spirit with Christ through union with Him. This is why you do not understand Romans 7:22-23 which clearly states that we delight in the law of God in the new creature we have become in Christ but we still are at odds with it in the flesh. This is echoed in verse 25 which says, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin." Again, We see this in the rear-view mirror after we are saved. It is not something that can be seen ahead of salvation.
In Romans 7:8, it is the law of sin taking the the opportunity through the Law of God to stir up sinful passions, so sin is dead apart from the law of sin. In other words, if it weren't for the law of sin, then we would have no problems with always living in obedience to the Law of God. So there is nothing innate to the command to love our neighbor and stirs up sinus passions in order to bear fruit unto death, but rather there is something within us that reacts to the Law of God that causes sin to increase, which is the law of sin. In. Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that the Law of God is holy, righteous, and good and that it was not that which is good that brought death to him, but you are trying to use his words to say that it is that which is good that brought death to him instead of the law of sin.
Sin would still exist even if God had never given the law. But the law reveals to the lost that they are breakers of the law. And it informs them that their sins will result in their eternal death. And this should serve as a warning to the lost that they need to go to God and find forgiveness in Christ so that they may not perish but have everlasting life. If they do it, as many have, then in the rearview mirror they can see that the law's ministry of death was actually a good thing. But they cannot have that perception before they are saved.
 
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Dan Perez

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My house stands firm with God, for he has made an everlasting covenant with me; 2 Sam 23:5

Philippians 1:11

Unless the Lord builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Psalm 127:1
Is 2 Sam 23:5 speaking to the B O C ?

I think NOT !!

dan p
 
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keepitsimple144

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Is 2 Sam 23:5 speaking to the B O C ?

I think NOT !!

dan p
For You have made Your people Israel Your very own people forever; and You, Lord, have become their God.
“Now, O Lord God, the word which You have spoken concerning Your servant and concerning his house, establish it forever and do as You have said. 2 Samuel 7:24-25
 
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Dan Perez

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For You have made Your people Israel Your very own people forever; and You, Lord, have become their God.
“Now, O Lord God, the word which You have spoken concerning Your servant and concerning his house, establish it forever and do as You have said. 2 Samuel 7:24-25
Even 2 Sam 7:24-25 says that the context is , the Nation of Israel and NOT to Gentiles .

dan p
 
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keepitsimple144

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Even 2 Sam 7:24-25 says hat the context is , the Nation of Israel and NOT to Gentiles .

dan p
Shhh
But it has now been revealed by the Spirit that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. Ephesians 3:5-7
 
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Dan Perez

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Shhh
But it has now been revealed by the Spirit that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. Ephesians 3:5-7
I am an Act 9 , dispenationalist and believe that the BODY of CHRIST , began with Paul .

Care to say where you stand ?

dan p
 
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keepitsimple144

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I am an Act 9 , dispenationalist and believe that the BODY of CHRIST , began with Paul .
It couldn't have begun with Paul since he was persecuting the body of believers until he was grounded. (Acts 9:4)
Care to say where you stand ?
Christ is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, Col 1:15-19

________________________________________________________
I, the Lord call forth the generations from the beginning. Isaiah 41:3
 
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