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the Mark of the Beast, Daniel's 70th week, and Pastor Bill Macgregor

rwb

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Parts of Matthew 24 are about what the disciples would face in their lifetime.

Regarding Daniel, he was in Babylonian captivity, and so he concentratin on the plight of his people. Take a look at Daniel 9, in his prayer he is lamenting over that his people had transgress the mount Sinai covenant. And Gabriel informed him about the 70weeks of years are determined upon Jerusalem and Daniel's people.... until everlasting righteousness is brought in.... i.e. the Kingdom of God and the messianic age, which Jews are all hoping for.

Yes, since one must submit to being a Jew to belong to Covenant Israel of Old, the Jews of faith would have been Daniel's people while in captivity. In chapter 9 Daniel prays for his nation as a whole, but then at the end of his prayer Gabriel tells Daniel what will come in the future, after the captivity comes to an end. The prophesy takes us to the New Covenant with the birth of Christ, and His anointing as the Messiah who takes away the sin of the world. But Daniel has already written in chapter 7 that the Ancient of days, and most high God would be unto all the nations of the world, or the kingdom under the whole heaven. So after the Messiah came, Daniel's people would be whosoever is of faith from throughout the whole earth.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:22 (KJV) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:27 (KJV) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
 
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rwb

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They don't, but that is not what the Jews of Jesus's day were expecting of the messiah.

The coming Antichrist will be someone that the Jews will think is the messiah, and is anointed the King of Israel - that is what actually will make the person the Antichrist.

Doug you can only assume what you allege here, because it cannot be biblically proven. Which is what your various charts show, guesses and assumptions, things read into the Word of God, but not what the Word actually teaches us. The apostate Jews to this day are still expecting the Messiah to come. But the Bible is written for believers, the disciples of Christ. While you seem to think the Bible is primarily a history of the apostate Jewish nation, the Bible is very clear it is for the Church on earth, Christians.
 
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Douggg

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So after the Messiah came, Daniel's people would be whosoever is of faith from throughout the whole earth.
No, bad rationale. Can't make the church - Israel, nor gentile Christians - Jews.
 
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rwb

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Yes, these words Christ spoke to His disciples, Christians. They are every much for believers today as they were in the first century Christians AD. Because it is only people of faith, born again of Christ that receive the Holy Spirit and are able to understand. The same people Christ spoke to from the Mt of Olives instructing and warning Christians of what will be as they faithfully take the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth.
 
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Douggg

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But the Bible is written for believers, the disciples of Christ. While you seem to think the Bible is primarily a history of the apostate Jewish nation, the Bible is very clear it is for the Church on earth, Christians.
The bible is God's book.

In it are information verses, and instructions verses.

God is going to destroy Satan and his kingdom - information verses.

Believe on the Lord Jesus and him crucified and raised on the third day and you shall be saved. - instruction verses.
 
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rwb

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No, bad rationale. Can't make the church - Israel, nor gentile Christians - Jews.

Paul shows us that all who are of faith are "Israel of God". Israel of God according to Paul is neither of the circumcision nor uncircumcision, but people throughout the whole earth of FAITH, like that of Abraham.

In the Old the church consisted of Israel, or all who become part of the Covenant Body of Israel by submitting to the Jewish Laws. Luke refers to them as the church in the wilderness.

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
 
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Douggg

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Yes, these words Christ spoke to His disciples, Christians. They are every much for believers today as they were in the first century Christians AD. Because it is only people of faith, born again of Christ that receive the Holy Spirit and are able to understand. The same people Christ spoke to from the Mt of Olives instructing and warning Christians of what will be as they faithfully take the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

But that is not the great tribulation triggered by the abomination of desolation.
 
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rwb

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The bible is God's book.

In it are information verses, and instructions verses.

God is going to destroy Satan and his kingdom - information verses.

Believe on the Lord Jesus and hims crucified and raised on the third day and you shall be saved. - instruction verses.

Yes, God's Word given to the Church on earth, with the mandate to "go ye" unto all the earth and preach the Gospel to all nations, and whosoever believes shall have eternal life in Christ. God's Word was given to the Church on earth to instruct and reprove and to teach the way of Christ by grace through faith.
 
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Douggg

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Paul shows us that all who are of faith are "Israel of God". Israel of God according to Paul is neither of the circumcision nor uncircumcision, but people throughout the whole earth of FAITH, like that of Abraham.

In the Old the church consisted of Israel, or all who become part of the Covenant Body of Israel by submitting to the Jewish Laws. Luke refers to them as the church in the wilderness.

Acts 7:37-38 (KJV) This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Israel is the changed name of Jacob, not Abraham.
 
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rwb

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All tribulation to believers is great! I don't find "the" great tribulation in Scripture. I find only "great tribulation". It's really too bad so many translations have allowed their bias to come into the translation of this verse. In doing this they make is appear that "great tribulation" will be a certain time, and place. The very verse you quote proves this for it says, "in the world"....."but I have overcome the world." It sounds to me like Christ's disciples need to be prepared for tribulation as long as they are in the world. And I'm certain you would agree those martyred for the faith would say their death was truly "great tribulation".

Strong's Greek Dictionary
2347. θλῖψις thlipsis (thlîpsis)

Search for G2347 in KJVSL; in KJV.
θλῖψις thlîpsis, thlip'-sis

from G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

feminine noun
 
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rwb

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Israel is the changed name of Jacob, not Abraham.

Yes, the Seed (Christ) comes through the line of Abraham, Issaac and Jacob. What does Paul say regarding Jacob in Romans?

Romans 9:13 (KJV) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

When we are of the Seed (Christ) that comes through Abraham, Issaac and Jacob we are true Israel or Israel of God.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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If there is a mass revival, then the condition would be, no one left to destroy. If total apostasy, then there would be no one left on earth to call the church.
LOL. This is incredible. Do you understand who inspired what is written in 2 Thess 1:7-10? God did. Do you think God doesn't know if there will be unbelievers alive when Christ returns or not? Of course He does. So, that prophecy is not conditional at all. To say that all prophecy is conditional is beyond ludicrous and I'm not going to waste any more time talking about that.
 
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jgr

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the way you describe the man proves he's not "one of my own".
i am not a dispensationalist.
as far as I'm concerned, dispensationalism itself is the modern day counterpart to Marcionism, and is a heresy

one can be a futurist and not dispensational at the same time.

Irenaeus was a futurist, not a Dispensational futurist.
Irenaeus held to the patristic belief of the "six day theory", a theory that states the six days of creation are also a hidden eschatological symbol for six thousand years of human history, ending with a literal thousand year reign of Christ, constituting not just a literal interpretation, but also a prophetic interpretation fo the creation week:

"For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: "Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works." This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year."
(Irenaeus, Against Heresies V. XXVIII, 3)

this not only proves the early church was premillenial, but also held to futurism.

furthermore:
“In which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavoring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: ‘When you shall see the Abomination of Desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place’…He shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] will be given into his hands until a time, times and half a time: that is for three years and six months, during which time, when he [antichrist] comes, he will reign over the earth…The abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the Temple; even until the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete [Dan. 9:27]. Now three years and six months constitute the half-week”
(Against Heresies, Book 5, chs. 25, 26)

Irenaeus also taught that the great tribulation would last 3 1/2 years (contrary to what other certain futurists claim), but that there would be a literal temple built.

furthermore, Hippolytus, the student of Irenaeus, had this to say about the events of Revelation:

"As these things, then, are in the future, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ."
(Hippolytus: Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28)

this teaching- that futurism is a Roman Catholic invention- is a lie, plain and simple. 300-400 years before the creation of the Roman Catholic Church, historic premillennialism, or chiliasm was taught

i have references to Lactantius, Victorinus, Hippolytus (whom i quoted earlier), Commodianus, and Justin Martyr... all who lived and died hundres of years prior to the creation of the Roman Catholic Church, who were ALL premillennial and futurist.
By the time of the Reformation, there was not a futurist to be found in the Reformation church, as to a man the Reformers recognized that they were in battle with the predominant antichrist of their era, the apostate papacy.

The only futurism to be found was that fabricated by said apostate papacy in an attempt to defeat the Reformation. By God's grace and mercy, it failed.

This is what Larkin acknowledges. He says nothing about dispensationalism, and everything about futurism.

It is the spawn of apostasy.
 
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Super Kal

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By the time of the Reformation, there was not a futurist to be found in the Reformation church, as to a man the Reformers recognized that they were in battle with the predominant antichrist of their era, the apostate papacy.

The only futurism to be found was that fabricated by said apostate papacy in an attempt to defeat the Reformation. By God's grace and mercy, it failed.

This is what Larkin acknowledges. He says nothing about dispensationalism, and everything about futurism.
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your reply is the very definition of "cavalier dismissal".

i really dont give two flips of a wodden nickel about what the Reformers thought about the millennium. as far as I'm concerned, the majority of them are heretics, since they hold to Calvinism.

the fact of the matter remains: the ante-Nicene church held to premillennialism... and facts dont care about your feelings.
 
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jgr

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your reply is the very definition of "cavalier dismissal".

i really dont give two flips of a wodden nickel about what the Reformers thought about the millennium. as far as I'm concerned, the majority of them are heretics, since they hold to Calvinism.

the fact of the matter remains: the ante-Nicene church held to premillennialism... and facts dont care about your feelings.
The fact is that futurist Larkin acknowledged that futurism was spawned in apostasy.

He said nothing about premil.
 
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Super Kal

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The fact is that futurist Larkin acknowledged that futurism was spawned in apostasy.
Larkin is a despensational hereetic, and spreads the same lie that you spread today.

like i said, the early church held to futurism. i have the actual quotes to back up that claim, and shared at least one from Hippolytus with you earlier. you can scream heresy and apostasy until you're blue in the face, but the truth is, i couldnt care any less if you dont like it.
i said it once, i'll say it again: facts dont care about your feelings.
 
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jgr

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Larkin is a despensational hereetic, and spreads the same lie that you spread today.

like i said, the early church held to futurism. i have the actual quotes to back up that claim, and shared at least one from Hippolytus with you earlier. you can scream heresy and apostasy until you're blue in the face, but the truth is, i couldnt care any less if you dont like it.
i said it once, i'll say it again: facts dont care about your feelings.
The early Protestant Church repudiated futurism.

Are you a Catholic?
 
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Super Kal

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The early Protestant Church repudiated futurism.

Are you a Catholic?
no. I'm not a Catholic. how in the sam hill did you come to THAT ridiculous conclusion??

once again, you're wrong.
the ante-Nicene church (which means the church prior to the Nicene Council, which was held in 325AD) was neither Catholic, Protestant, or Greek Orthodox. They were simply Christians.
while the Protestant church as we know it today began with the Protestant Reformation, the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today took over a thousand years to become was we see today. the church in Rome did not receive special accommodations until a little over halfway into the first millennium.

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Victorinus, Commodianus, Lactantius, Hippolytus...
all futurists. and these were inviduals who lived and died before the Protestant/Roman Catholic/Greek Orthodox churches ever existed
 
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