The Lord never intended for denominations

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,556
12,104
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,178,494.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Original comment was "NON-Denom", What actually is non-non denom.?

What do you think that they were ?
Apologies, autocorrect changed denom into demon and when I reverted it back it somehow threw in an extra "non-". Technology can be a pain sometimes.

Anyways, FireDragon specifically asked if any non-denom Church had produced saints or religious figures of the calibre of some produced by the Catholic Church. Your list of names did not address this question.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I find it cynical that an ostensible plea for tolerance is disguising yet another opportunity to bash Catholicism.

And it's not that one can't, at least, on the surface, agree with the particular critique given in the OP--concerning petitioning the Blessed Virgin for her prayer. But the critique isn't a good one, it's a bad argument.

And that's one of my problems with the general anti-Catholic rhetoric; it's not rooted in any honest disagreement with particular points of Catholic teaching or practice, but rather a broad, generalized "Catholics are bad because they are Catholics" approach.

"Jesus never said to pray to His mother" isn't a good argument against asking Mary for prayer.
There are a lot of things Jesus never explicitly said or taught, but that doesn't make such things wrong.

Jesus never gave His followers a Bible to read, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have or read the Bible.
Jesus never told us explicitly to sing hymns, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't practice hymn singing.
Jesus never never told us to have youth ministries, or quilting groups, or canned food drives; that doesn't mean we shouldn't have these.
Jesus is completely silent on whether there can be instrumental accompaniment in Christian worship or not.

So there needs to be a much better argument in order to make an honest criticism of practice. Because "that group does things my group doesn't, and I don't understand why, therefore they're wrong" is usually what all this boils down to, and that's not an honest position. That's just tribalism.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,564
18,498
Orlando, Florida
✟1,257,433.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't believe any of the above are non-denom.

Martin Luther King Jr. is the only one of the list I'd consider a person of significance whom I would seek to emulate or learn from. The rest are selling parochial dogmatic religious ideology, and are thoroughly uninteresting in the world of religion.

American evangelical Christians desperately need to step out of their religious bubbles.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Martin Luther King Jr. is the only one of the list I'd consider a person of significance whom I would seek to emulate or learn from. The rest are selling parochial dogmatic religious ideology, and are thoroughly uninteresting in the world of religion.

American evangelical Christians desperately need to step out of their religious bubbles.

By your comment I can now understand why you would say such a thing.

You have just told me that you really have no idea the works and things those men have done for the cause of Christ.

Dwight Moody sells parochial dogmatic religious ideology??????
REALLY? Shame on you Mr. Dragon.

Consider what he wrote before dying, a passage that his son would use to open his biography:

"Someday you will read in the papers that D. L. Moody of East Northfield is dead. Don’t you believe a word of it! At that moment I shall be more alive than I am now; I shall have gone up higher, that is all, out of this old clay tenement into a house that is immortal—a body that death cannot touch, that sin cannot taint; a body fashioned like unto His glorious body.[39] It is as clear a statement about the hope of the resurrection as one could possibly hope for."

If that is parochial religiouse ideology........Praise God for it!!!!!!!

Billy Graham????

I can hardly believe that any person would say such a thing.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,564
18,498
Orlando, Florida
✟1,257,433.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
By your comment I can now understand why you would say such a thing.

You have just told me that you really have no idea the works and things those men have done for the cause of Christ.

Dwight Moody sells parochial dogmatic religious ideology??????
REALLY? Shame on you Mr. Dragon.

Consider what he wrote before dying, a passage that his son would use to open his biography:

"Someday you will read in the papers that D. L. Moody of East Northfield is dead. Don’t you believe a word of it! At that moment I shall be more alive than I am now; I shall have gone up higher, that is all, out of this old clay tenement into a house that is immortal—a body that death cannot touch, that sin cannot taint; a body fashioned like unto His glorious body.[39] It is as clear a statement about the hope of the resurrection as one could possibly hope for."

That's peddling in smug certainties about where we go when we die. I'm more interested in those people who have faced peril with quiet courage despite their doubts.
 
Upvote 0

Lost4words

Jesus I Trust In You
Site Supporter
May 19, 2018
10,992
11,741
Neath, Wales, UK
✟1,010,441.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I never understood denominations. Its just something man-made to further separate us from one another.

Was Jesus a Catholic? Did he ever say once to pray to his mother Mary? No.
The golden plates of LDS focus our attention away from the Lord.

I believe non-denominational is the closest we can get to what the Lord originally intended.

All the pomp and glamor and fancy dress and focus on saints.. where did Jesus ever ONCE tell his disciples to do this? In fact, his entire life was on living a life separate from that stuff.

Non denom is much like a ship at sea with no rudder.
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
William Carey .
Billy Graham.
Martin Luther King Jr.
J. Vernon Magee.
Oliver B. Green.
Dwight L. Moody.
Charles Spurgeon.

HOMEWORK and STUDY is more important than time spent on internet sites.

William Carey -- Particular Baptist missionary
Billy Graham -- Southern Baptist minister
Martin Luther King Jr. -- National Baptist minister
J. Vernon McGee -- Presbyterian minister and pastor of the Church of the Open Door
Oliver B. Greene -- Independent Baptist minister
Dwight L. Moody -- Congregationalist evangelist
Charles Spurgeon -- Particular Baptist minister

Of the above, only J. Vernon McGee can perhaps be claimed as non-denom (although even that I would see as incorrect).
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Tigger45
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I never understood denominations. Its just something man-made to further separate us from one another.

No, denominations are a way of uniting together.

It is non-denoms that (sadly) are separated from everybody else.

All the pomp and glamor and fancy dress and focus on saints..

Members of Presbyterian and Baptist denominations would call that slander.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Major1
Upvote 0

rainingviolets

Active Member
Jun 24, 2019
53
61
Midwest
✟17,227.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1. I was raised in a Roman Catholic church (where I was baptized as a baby).
2. I was baptized by immersion in a Baptist church when I was saved and accepted Christ as my Savior during college.
3. I married a man who had been raised Lutheran but had also become a born again believer during college.
4. We were married in a Christian and Missionary Alliance Church because it was the only church that didn't make us promise we would raise us our children in a certain denomination and didn't care "what" we were. The only "have to" was that we were saved, born again believers.
5. After moving, we then "church shopped", attending all kinds of churches and denominations. What we wanted was a church that was completely Biblically-based - if it wasn't in the Bible, Genesis through Revelation, we didn't want it. We settled on a Baptist church and attended there for over 30 years.
6. Today we attend a nondenominational church. Why? Because several years ago a new pastor began to allow the world to begin to creep in to that strong Bible-based Baptist church. Along with the world came lots of drama, arguments, a huge drop in giving, and a big dip in membership and attendance. Our nondenominational church is a strong evangelical Bible-based church.

After becoming a believer I could no longer attend a church/ denomination that is not completely Bible-based and Bible-focused. Yet, we each have to follow our heart. It is not my place to judge where someone else feels spiritually fed. There was a time in my life when different denominations played a role in my life. For that I am grateful.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
1. I was raised in a Roman Catholic church (where I was baptized as a baby).
2. I was baptized by immersion in a Baptist church when I was saved and accepted Christ as my Savior during college.
3. I married a man who had been raised Lutheran but had also become a born again believer during college.
4. We were married in a Christian and Missionary Alliance Church because it was the only church that didn't make us promise we would raise us our children in a certain denomination and didn't care "what" we were. The only "have to" was that we were saved, born again believers.
5. After moving, we then "church shopped", attending all kinds of churches and denominations. What we wanted was a church that was completely Biblically-based - if it wasn't in the Bible, Genesis through Revelation, we didn't want it. We settled on a Baptist church and attended there for over 30 years.
6. Today we attend a nondenominational church. Why? Because several years ago a new pastor began to allow the world to begin to creep in to that strong Bible-based Baptist church. Along with the world came lots of drama, arguments, a huge drop in giving, and a big dip in membership and attendance. Our nondenominational church is a strong evangelical Bible-based church.

After becoming a believer I could no longer attend a church/ denomination that is not completely Bible-based and Bible-focused. Yet, we each have to follow our heart. It is not my place to judge where someone else feels spiritually fed. There was a time in my life when different denominations played a role in my life. For that I am grateful.

Without appealing to denominational or specific theological formulae of any particular tradition, could you provide us with a description of what a "completely Bible-based and Bible-focused" church is, looks like, and what it believes?

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

rainingviolets

Active Member
Jun 24, 2019
53
61
Midwest
✟17,227.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Without appealing to denominational or specific theological formulae of any particular tradition, could you provide us with a description of what a "completely Bible-based and Bible-focused" church is, looks like, and what it believes?

-CryptoLutheran

I' m sitting here laughing because I tried really hard to think of a way to word how I could say what I wanted to say without offending anyone. My first draft had a lot of deletions and rewrites because my word selections were not the best . Take # 2 and #3 were better, but still unacceptable. I thought I'd done sort of okay with " Bible-based and Bible-focused", although I did go back and stick in "completely". I get the impression you DO know what I'm saying, or not saying. To answer your question, no, I can't do so without getting denomination or theology specific, or even a bit offensive. I was trying to be nice!
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Radagast
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I' m sitting here laughing because I tried really hard to think of a way to word how I could say what I wanted to say without offending anyone. My first draft had a lot of deletions and rewrites because my word selections were not the best . Take # 2 and #3 were better, but still unacceptable. I thought I'd done sort of okay with " Bible-based and Bible-focused", although I did go back and stick in "completely". I get the impression you DO know what I'm saying, or not saying. To answer your question, no, I can't do so without getting denomination or theology specific, or even a bit offensive. I was trying to be nice!

My only real intent was to provoke thought and reflection about what these ideas mean.

If anyone, any of us who are Christians, believed our churches weren't faithful to Scripture, we wouldn't be party to it.

So, for example, in my own personal experience:

For the first eight years of my life my family attended a non-denominational church that simply called itself a "Bible Church". My family was forced to leave because of some rather unsavory circumstances. The net result was the ostracization of my mother and thus, my family, over things that were never true.

We eventually ended up joining a Foursquare church that met at the local YMCA before, a few years later, joining another Foursquare church the next town over. I have nothing bad to say about the people there, at least the early ones, some who came later tended to be a bit more difficult at least in my estimation. I ultimately stopped going when I was around 18, my mom passed away and my dad had been forced to move across state due to his job, and so I was living with my grandparents and had no means of transport for myself.

At this time I also began to do a lot of serious investigation and searching. Reading Scripture a lot more, looking into the history of Christianity. These things forced me to confront a lot of assumptions I had always had growing up, and forced me to rethink my own beliefs in order to be more closely aligned with what I was reading in Scripture. The most interesting thing to me was that much of what I was reading aligned not with any of the traditions I had been familiar with and part of up to that point; but with traditional Christian churches which I had largely been raised to consider unworth my time.

My wilderness period lasted the last couple of my teenage years and well into my early and mid-20's. I tried visiting and shopping for churches, but there were things that I couldn't reconcile. In some cases I simply was trying to make my dad happy by going to churches he thought I should go to, even though I couldn't agree with them on some very basic issues.

Ultimately I realized that I was Lutheran. It was quite by accident. Of all the churches I had been looking at, Lutheranism wasn't one of them. But, turns out, that's exactly what I had become without ever noticing it. But wasn't sure how to actually start doing anything about that, and so spent a number of years as what I describe as a "Crypto-Luthearn", i.e. a "secret Lutheran" (hence the CryptoLutheran I sign off with, something I began when I first joined Christian Forums back in 2010). But then, I finally just made the plunge. So there's no "crypto" part anymore.

I get the sentiment of where you are coming from. You don't want all this "stuff", you just want to follow Jesus and try and take Scripture seriously. But it's important to understand that's what all of us want. That's why we are where we are.

We aren't part of our denominations and communions because we are trying to blindly believe what our pastors or priests say; but because we are honestly, passionately, desiring to take Jesus seriously, and to live as faithful Christians in the world. And, because we are human, and because Christian history is complicated and messy, that also means that we have very major disagreements.

Nobody is "just" a Christian. That is, nobody is without their own biases, everyone is practicing the Christian religion through specific theological lenses, and maintaining certain traditions. That includes non-denominational churches--they have just as many peculiar and specific traditions and theological perspectives as any denominational church. The only real difference between a denominational church and a non-denominational church is the size of the church; denominations consist of multiple local churches and congregations, non-denominational churches consist of a single local church and/or congregation That's really the only difference.

There's no avoiding tradition, or avoiding having strong opinions on theological subjects that result in disagreement with other Christians. That's just life here in this world that we have to deal with. That, and tradition isn't an ugly word. Tradition is why we can call ourselves Christian in the first place--without anyone continuing to teach and confess the Christian faith down through the last two thousand years, none of us would be able to have heard the name of Jesus to begin with. Even the existence of the Bible itself is a tradition of the Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

rainingviolets

Active Member
Jun 24, 2019
53
61
Midwest
✟17,227.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am curious, where in scripture did Jesus command us to "follow our heart?" He commanded us to do many things.

You misinterpret my meaning. Whenever I use the word "heart" in that context, I am always referring to our spiritual heart, how the Lord is leading, and always in a spiritual sense. When speaking with Christians I assume they do the same...the Christians I know understand the meaning and the feeling. The Scripture often speaks of the Lord's leading. Grab a concordance and look up the word "leading." I'll give you one to get you started.

Isaiah 48:17
"I am the Lord the God , who teacheth thee to profit, who leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go."

If you have never felt the Lord's prompting, this leading of your heart, I pray that you will experience it.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,427
26,867
Pacific Northwest
✟731,303.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
You misinterpret my meaning. Whenever I use the word "heart" in that context, I am always referring to our spiritual heart, how the Lord is leading, and always in a spiritual sense. When speaking with Christians I assume they do the same...the Christians I know understand the meaning and the feeling. The Scripture often speaks of the Lord's leading. Grab a concordance and look up the word "leading." I'll give you one to get you started.

Isaiah 48:17
"I am the Lord the God , who teacheth thee to profit, who leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go."

If you have never felt the Lord's prompting, this leading of your heart, I pray that you will experience it.

Wouldn't it make sense that the way God leads Israel in the way she goes is through the Torah which He had given? That this isn't an interior experience for individuals, but the public, corporate guidance of God through the revelation of which He had given His people.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,775
2,568
PA
✟274,209.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Whenever I use the word "heart" in that context, I am always referring to our spiritual heart
Ok, so you are saying we all should follow our spiritual heart.

But, then you say

how the Lord is leading, and always in a spiritual sense
The Scripture often speaks of the Lord's leading

The Lord certainly does lead. I get concerned when people say I, my, our, when referring to what and who they are following.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,556
12,104
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,178,494.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If you have never felt the Lord's prompting, this leading of your heart, I pray that you will experience it.
This is something Mormons claim to have all the time, yet we know that the Lord will never lead into heresy.
 
Upvote 0

rainingviolets

Active Member
Jun 24, 2019
53
61
Midwest
✟17,227.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I get the sentiment of where you are coming from. You don't want all this "stuff", you just want to follow Jesus and try and take Scripture seriously. But it's important to understand that's what all of us want. That's why we are where we are.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't want you to think I dropped the ball here. I wrote a long, honest reply, but it was so honest I knew it had to violate all kinds of forum rules and I would be banned forever, so I deleted it. Then I decided I didn't care if I was banned because this is an extremely sensitive and important topic to me, so I rewrote the whole thing again and came back to post it. But it will be offensive to people of a particular religion, and it should be, but I have been hurt too many times in my life that whenever possible I try not to be the offender. I will simply say that I came from a very complicated, abusive past that has left deep scars, PTSD, and memories that are so awful they are repressed...and they are connected to a certain denomination. No one on this forum is responsible for any of that, so from my heart, yes I said heart, I am dropping the entire subject and leaving this thread. Too much pain has been stirred up in me. I'm going to go mop my tears, hug my cat, and go for a walk.
 
Upvote 0

Tigger45

Pray like your life depends on it!
Site Supporter
Aug 24, 2012
20,730
13,156
E. Eden
✟1,270,986.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
  • Agree
Reactions: usexpat97
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I am curious, where in scripture did Jesus command us to "follow our heart?" He commanded us to do many things.

Proverbs 3:5-6...…..
“Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight”.
 
Upvote 0