The last judgement

[Xeno.of.athens]

When a person dies are they judged immediately?

If they are then why is there a last judgement like the one described in Matthew chapter twenty five?

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.​

Matthew 25:31-46 NIV

 

[d taylor]

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A believer is not Judged to see if they are a believer and get to live eternally with God. At the moment of belief in Jesus for Eternal Life, the believer crosses over from death to life and will not come into judgment. Even if a believer falls away from the faith, they remain a born again child of God never to face judgment.

But a believer will face the judgment seat of The Messiah. This judgment is a judgment of rewards and how well a believer lived their life as a born again child of God.

Now there are judgment of unbelievers but the final judgment all unbelievers will face, is the great white throne judgment, no believers will be present at this judgment only unbelievers.

Judgments:

2022 GES National Conference-Last Days Judgments – Grace Evangelical Society

Eschatological judgments – Grace Evangelical Society

https://faithalone.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Wilkin.pdf

Sheep and Goats Judgment – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

A believer is not Judged

The righteous people, also called sheep, in Matthew 25 are believers are they not?

 

[d taylor]

The righteous people, also called sheep, in Matthew 25 are believers are they not?

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Yes they are judged for rewards and their position in the up and coming 1000 rule of Jesus.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

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Yes they are judged for rewards and their position in the up and coming 1000 rule of Jesus.

You've got an elaborate system of interpretation going here; it comes from the web sites you've mentioned before?

 

[fhansen]

God doesn't leave us hanging out until the end of time to know our eternal fates. We know immediately at death. Then, at the end of time, He'll also gather all together to render His final judgment on mankind. We will all be witness to His perfect wisdom and justice; we will all be satisfied, knowing why He's judged as He has. God's plan for creation will be fulfilled, fully consumated at that time. And apparently that's when we receive our resurrected bodies as well.

 

[BobRyan]

When a person dies are they judged immediately?

If they are then why is there a last judgement like the one described in Matthew chapter twenty five?

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.​

Matthew 25:31-46 NIV

Judgment future to Paul's day - did not happen when a person dies
Rom 2:

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.​

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.​

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2 Cor 5:10

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.​

There comes a point in human history (future to the NT writers) where it can be said "Hour of God's judgment HAS come"

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”​

The Judgment future to the NT writers progresses along the lines that Rom 2:4-16 specifically tells us about.

 

[BobRyan]

The time for that judgment to start is specified in Dan 7 and 8.

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8 While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.​

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9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.​

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13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.​

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19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.​

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23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. (1260 days = 1260 solar years) 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then (Christ takes over, Christ's appearing) the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’​

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Dan 7 says the judgment happens some time after the Pagan Roman empire falls apart, after the 1260 years of dark ages, and before the second coming of Christ

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 8:1 and I looked in the vision and I myself was beside the Ulai Canal. 3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last. 4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.

5 While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. 6 He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath. 7 I saw him come beside the ram, and he was enraged at him; and he struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to withstand him. So he hurled him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was none to rescue the ram from his power. 8 Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.

12 And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper. 13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?” 14 He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be cleansed - (properly restored.)”

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18 Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand upright. 19 He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.

The Ram’s Identity​

20 The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.

The Goat​

21 The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.

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• In Dan 8 - the "cleansing of the Sanctuary" solution appears in the same place as the "judgment" solution in Dan 7 -- for the little horn problem that both chapters describe. So it is after the fall of the Roman empire and before the appearing of Christ to take over on Earth (rapture the saints, destroy the wicked)
• In Dan 8 we have the same day-for-year use of prophetic time as in the 490 years of Dan 9, the 1260 years of Dan 7. So then 2300 years of time identified in Dan 8.

 

[The Righterzpen]

When a person dies are they judged immediately?

If they are then why is there a last judgement like the one described in Matthew chapter twenty five?

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.​

Matthew 25:31-46 NIV

When I read Matthew 25 I don't get an "automatic impression" that the redeemed are "judged" per se. For those Christ atoned for their sin; he was judged in their stead. Both Daniel and Revelation talk about "the books were opened". Assuming "the book of the deeds" someone has done that ultimately condemns them and "the book of life"; which is the record of those who are atoned for.

The way I understand how someone knows upon death where they will end up? Because the resurrection has already happened; believers' souls pass into the presence of Christ immediately and the unregenerate descend into Sheol.

On "the last day" bodies are raised and "reunited" to souls who've retained some form of consciousness from the time of death. Thus the unredeemed are awaiting judgement upon the final resurrection; and it seems to me that they are aware the atonement is complete; thus they know they are condemned because they are in Sheol. Thus post atonement in earthly time they are "judged already" because they are not atoned for.

Does that make sense?

Then of course, the "final judgement" is when death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Death at this point is like the "waiting stage" of the final verdict.
Judgement Day is the "final verdict".
And The Lake of Fire is the punishment.

 

[Mark Quayle]

When a person dies are they judged immediately?

If they are then why is there a last judgement like the one described in Matthew chapter twenty five?

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.​

Matthew 25:31-46 NIV

Why would you assume they are not one and the same?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Why would you assume they are not one and the same?

Because Matthew 25 says, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him" which is a last day scene, is it not? While when individuals die it is the last day of their earthly life but not the last day of this world's existence, do you agree?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

When I read Matthew 25 I don't get an "automatic impression" that the redeemed are "judged" per se.

" All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." the separation of the just from the unjust is a judgement is it not?

 

[BurningBush84]

According to Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 16:19-31 , Yes.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Here's a thought from an authority on internet content.

The Last Judgment and the experience of an individual at the time of their death are two distinct events in Christian theology.

The Last Judgment is a belief held by many Christians that at the end of time, Jesus Christ will return and judge all humanity, separating the righteous from the wicked. This judgment will result in eternal reward for the righteous and eternal punishment for the wicked. This belief is based on various biblical passages, such as the book of Revelation.

On the other hand, when an individual dies, their soul is believed to be judged by God immediately. This judgment is based on the person's faith and deeds during their life. According to Christian theology, if the individual has lived a righteous life and has faith in God, they will be welcomed into Heaven. If the individual has lived a life of sin and has not repented, they will be condemned to Hell.

Therefore, the key difference between the Last Judgment and an individual's judgment at the time of their death is the timing. The Last Judgment is a future event that will occur at the end of time, whereas an individual's judgment happens immediately upon their death.

 

[BurningBush84]

Some say when you die you get a personal private judgement on your soul. But that judgement will be made public on the Last Day.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because Matthew 25 says, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him" which is a last day scene, is it not? While when individuals die it is the last day of their earthly life but not the last day of this world's existence, do you agree?

Even if you are right there, the "last day" scene itself, by your naming, is not the last day. So, I don't get what you are saying.

Anyway, my notion of how it plays out can be described like this: that the first man to 'make it to heaven' will see the last man to 'make it to heaven' simultaneous with his own arrival. That is more based on God's own economy of timelessness, than on much of anything else, but God's economy of 'timelessness' is only my way to put it for the sake of us, who don't know how to think without reference to time.

So when it happens, it is a THING, a DAY, if you will, but not a temporal day, but an event. I think the temporal economy of our existence will be 'swallowed up' in God's power, to where for the first time we will finally see clearly what happened, and what God has done —to some, terror, and to the Redeemed, joy in God's Glory.

 

[The Righterzpen]

" All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left." the separation of the just from the unjust is a judgement is it not?

I suppose that would depend on how you define "judgement". The just aren't being judged, they are just being separated. Remember they are not determined to be "just" on their own accord. They are segregated from the "unjust" because of the atonement. If there had been no atonement, than everyone would be condemned. No sentence is passed on the "just" so in that regard, it's not a "judgement". Remember, they haven't been deemed "innocent"; their "sentence" has been deemed "paid for".

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Even if you are right there, the "last day" scene itself, by your naming, is not the last day. So, I don't get what you are saying.

It's simple; it is the last day of this age.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I suppose that would depend on how you define "judgement". The just aren't being judged, they are just being separated. Remember they are not determined to be "just" on their own accord. They are segregated from the "unjust" because of the atonement. If there had been no atonement, than everyone would be condemned. No sentence is passed on the "just" so in that regard, it's not a "judgement". Remember, they haven't been deemed "innocent"; their "sentence" has been deemed "paid for".

It seems that you're playing with the definition of words.

Jesus does judge the righteous, he says to them "'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'", this is a favourable judgement.