The Lake Of Fire

[Major1]

May I thank you parenthetically for the link Major, as I affirm once more the awesome truth that is the TOTAL VICTORY OF CHRIST!

I really do hope they were of some help to you as I do not like to argue.

And may I say again, my belief in the Scriptures have given me the understanding......I AGREE 100% with your comment! God will save ALL who come to Christ by faith before they die.

 

[Major1]

Now you're accursing universalists? That's a major step to take. But just remember those 4 fingers that point right back each time you accuse.

Now you're accursing universalists? That's a major step to take. But just remember those 4 fingers that point right back each time you accuse.

NO SIR I AM NOT AND DID NOT. All I did say was that there was a concern in Paul's day which God lead him to address which he did.

All I did was post Galatians 1:8-9.

If your phone is ringing......you may want to answer it, but IT IS NOT ME!

 

[Major1]

You are on the money there Major. It is a narrow path to walk, on one side a great wall of fire and on the other a deep ocean.

The good news is that when we get burned we can jump in the water to cool off, and then dry off by the fire!

Praise God, for He has thought of everything!

I had never thought of salvation in those terms, but now that I have, YES I can see that may well fit.

However.....it can only fit while we are alive. Death closes the door to Grace, Salvation and Mercy.

"Today is the day of salvation" was Paul's cry to the lost man. Come to Christ TODAY and be saved because tomarrow brings all of us one day closer to death, for the LOST man. For the saved man it beings us one day closer to BEING WITH GOD!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I really do hope they were of some help to you as I do not like to argue.

Agreed. The spirit of debate and dissension amongst brethren is less than ideal.

And may I say again, my belief in the Scriptures have given me the understanding......I AGREE 100% with your comment! God will save ALL who come to Christ by faith before they die.

I'm glad we have much common ground Major. I'd just like you to see that Jesus also raises the dead in order to have them come to him.

Lord, only say the word and it shall be done.

 

[Major1]

Agreed. The spirit of debate and dissension amongst brethren is less than ideal.



I'm glad we have much common ground Major. Just like you to see that Jesus also raises the dead in order to have them come to him.

Lord, only say the word and it shall be done.

I agree.

May I also say to you that what we have being discussing is NOT an ESSCENTIAL to being a Christian and being saved. It is a disagreement on something that neither one of us will know anything about and neither will we care once we have landed in heaven.

 

[Major1]

Major, how many times must I repeat God's supervening overarching emphatic covenant promise:

I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. (Isa 45:23)

For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." (Rom 14:11)

Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him. (Ps 72:11)



You are majorly at odds with scripture on this one as well I'm afraid.

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, (Phil 2:10)

And I heard every creature in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power forever and ever!" (Rev 5:13)

Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. (Isa 26:19)



I just did. What about Lazarus, he got a second chance? And the damsel who Jesus raised? And that kid Elisha raised in a rather non-politically correct manner lol? And Jesus himself, as the second Adam on behalf of fallen mankind - the RESURRECTION? That, Sir, is the revelation on which the Christian hope is builded, among these dark satanic mills.



I have faith that all will call on the name of the Lord, that's what the tribulation, the great battle of Armegiddo, the overcoming in the lake of fire are all for.



Matthew 10:28 - God can destroy you in hell, but that's not what He's about, as the following verses make clear - He loves us more than His beloved 2-bit sparrows, that's for sure.

Matthew 23:33 - Yes, heed the warning to the Pharisees, for as they judged others (threatening them with hell), so too may they be judged. They'll get 'flipped'.

Matthew 25:46 - 'aeonian' is better translated 'a next world of' than 'eternal' in this verse (see for eg Gal 1:4). 'Kolasin' is the word for 'punishment' and means 'chatisement' or 'correction' distinguished from the Greek 'timoria', which denotes retributive punishment.

Luke 16:23 - this is part of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus and speaks of Hades, which is (in any event) thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:15.

John 3:36 - this is of course true in conveying that so long as a person does not believe in Jesus (ie the total victory of God's salvation over the forces of evil), he is perishing. And as we've shown, sooner or later ALL come to believe. That's the promise, and is delivered as described in Revelation.

What about Matthew 7:21-23..........
"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Doesn't just those 3 Scriptures negact all the one you have posted about "aeonian" and Kolasin, and Timoria.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, -----

Does that not mean what it says??????

It says that not everyone will go to heaven which is exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

Then what about Luke 13:23-24 and 28.........
“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able ... There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

Was Jesus lieing when He said those words?????

Again, the words of Jesus are directly opposite of what you are saying. Now why would We accept your theology instead of that which came from Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I agree.

May I also say to you that what we have being discussing is NOT an ESSCENTIAL to being a Christian and being saved. It is a disagreement on something that neither one of us will know anything about and neither will we care once we have landed in heaven.

I just like to hear the gospel proclaimed in a way that glorifies God, rather than making Him out to be a mafioso (threatening ppl with the worst if they don't comply.) That kind of characterisation results in a rejection of God, a response with which I sympathise, because it's downright nasty.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What about Matthew 7:21-23..........
"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Doesn't just those 3 Scriptures negact all the one you have posted about "aeonian" and Kolasin, and Timoria.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, -----

Does that not mean what it says??????

It says that not everyone will go to heaven which is exactly the opposite of what you are saying.

Then what about Luke 13:23-24 and 28.........
“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able ... There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

Was Jesus lieing when He said those words?????

Again, the words of Jesus are directly opposite of what you are saying. Now why would We accept your theology instead of that which came from Jesus Christ Himself.

Well, we have to read those words harmoniously with God's great promises of salvation of all (Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10, Eph 1:10 amongst others), Jesus' mission to save ppl from condemnation, the victory of Christ consisting in salvation, the prophesied conversion of the nations fulfilled in Rev 21 and 22 (shortlist here Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List) and so on.

Matthew 7:21 can be interpreted sensibly to fit with this. Jesus is effectively saying you can only enter Heaven if you obey God. Compare John 3:3.

The Pharisees for example believe they do, but Jesus says no, their righteousness is false. They'll need to do better. And we say that's the purpose of the final judgment, for the reprobates to be corrected, to overcome their love of sin with the help of God's grace, His holy fire that renews all things and purifies the person. Painful but good.

Then what about Luke 13:23-24 and 28.........
“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able ... There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

Was Jesus lieing when He said those words?????

Again, the words of Jesus are directly opposite of what you are saying. Now why would We accept your theology instead of that which came from Jesus Christ Himself.

Not directly opposite. The sense is 'thrust out' until right (read in context of the overarching promise of salvation). Now that might take a long time with some ppl. Of course Jesus is giving the Pharisees 'tough love', so he's not going to tell them they'll be eventually saved. They know the scriptures, they're already arrogantly sure of their salvation. Jesus is warning them to not be so sure, in an attempt to shock them into doing some honest introspection/ repentance.

We don't just ditch our faith in God's ephphatic plan of universal salvation because Jesus pulls the rug out from under the prancing self-righteous, do we? Instead I'd hope it focuses us on what more we can do for the Kingdom, from the heart.

 

[FineLinen]

Indeed brother:

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

I love that 'ephphatha' has the sound of 'Father' in it. The Father who opens the eyes and ears, the heart and mind. There is NONE BIGGER, and done for us so:

that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. (Eph 3:17-19)

Shrewd: The working of the Christ of ephphatha is at the foundation of seeing and hearing. Until He opens our poor blind eyes, and deaf ears we stumble along.

The perishing is in the present progressive tense, these ones "are perishing", being closely aligned with "unbelieving" & blinded eyes & blinded minds.

I have great confidence in the Fire God! Our blindess, deafness & all the rest, He is able to handle in His own good time & pleasure. Every last ghastly element.

 

[Major1]

Luke 13:23-24 and 28, “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able ... There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.” Jesus' mission to save ppl from condemnation, the victory of Christ consisting in salvation, the prophesied conversion of the nations fulfilled in Rev 21 and 22 (shortlist here Youth With A Mission – “All Nations” Verse List) and so on.

Matthew 7:21 can be interpreted sensibly to fit with this. Jesus is effectively saying you can only enter Heaven if you obey God. Compare John 3:3.

The Pharisees for example believe they do, but Jesus says no, their righteousness is false. They'll need to do better. And we say that's the purpose of the final judgment, for the reprobates to be corrected, to overcome their love of sin with the help of God's grace, His holy fire that renews all things and purifies the person. Painful but good.



Not directly opposite. The sense is 'thrust out' until right (read in context of the overarching promise of salvation). Now that might take a long time with some ppl. Of course Jesus is giving the Pharisees 'tough love', so he's not going to tell them they'll be eventually saved. They know the scriptures, they're already arrogantly sure of their salvation. Jesus is warning them to not be so sure, in an attempt to shock them into doing some honest introspection/ repentance.

We don't just ditch our faith in God's ephphatic plan of universal salvation because Jesus pulls the rug out from under the prancing self-righteous, do we? Instead I'd hope it focuses us on what more we can do for the Kingdom, from the heart.

You said.........
"Well, we have to read those words harmoniously with God's great promises of salvation of all (Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10, Eph 1:10 "

Having said that, then what do we do with the Scriptures which tell us that only a FEW will go to heaven and not ALL PEOPLE? DO we ignore them????????

Luke 13:23-24 and 28.......
“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able ... There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

Then you said...........
" And we say that's the purpose of the final judgment, for the reprobates to be corrected, to overcome their love of sin with the help of God's grace, His holy fire that renews all things and purifies the person. Painful but good."

And the KEY in that statement is "WE SAY".

God never said such a thing and you know that I am a Bible believer and not a believer is WE SAY!

Now, as for the purpose of the final judgment................

Romans 2:5 ----
"But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed."

The first thing to understand about the final judgment is that it cannot be avoided. Regardless of how we may choose to interpret prophecy on the end times, or what we think about who will be in the Lake of Fire and for how long......we are told IN HEBREWS 9:27 that.....
“it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment”.

We all have a divine appointment with our Creator. The Believers will stand before the Lord Jesus Christ at the BEMA SEAT OF CHRIST.

Unbelievers and Make-believers will stand before Christ at the Great White Throne judgment.

The apostle John recorded some details of the final judgment in Rev. 20:11-15,

“And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them. And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire”.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You said.........
"Well, we have to read those words harmoniously with God's great promises of salvation of all (Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:10, Eph 1:10 "

Having said that, then what do we do with the Scriptures which tell us that only a FEW will go to heaven and not ALL PEOPLE? DO we ignore them????????

Luke 13:23-24 and 28.......
“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able ... There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

The answer is not to ignore God's great and manifold promises of universal salvation, or for that matter to ignore the scriptures which appear to support eternal torment or annihilation of the wicked.

The good news is that they can be harmonised, but ONLY if we accept that all will be ultimately saved. I think I've explained that. We need to understand that when ppl are 'thrust out', they still may return, but only after correction/ repentance.

Then you said...........
" And we say that's the purpose of the final judgment, for the reprobates to be corrected, to overcome their love of sin with the help of God's grace, His holy fire that renews all things and purifies the person. Painful but good."

And the KEY in that statement is "WE SAY".

God never said such a thing and you know that I am a Bible believer and not a believer is WE SAY!

Sorry, 'we say' with the spirit of faith hope and love, the spirit of victory, the spirit of overcoming, of grace, of awe, of rejoicing...that God's word will not return void.

Now, as for the purpose of the final judgment................

Romans 2:5 ----
"But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed."

The first thing to understand about the final judgment is that it cannot be avoided. Regardless of how we may choose to interpret prophecy on the end times, or what we think about who will be in the Lake of Fire and for how long......we are told IN HEBREWS 9:27 that.....
“it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment”.

We all have a divine appointment with our Creator. The Believers will stand before the Lord Jesus Christ at the BEMA SEAT OF CHRIST.

Unbelievers and Make-believers will stand before Christ at the Great White Throne judgment.

The apostle John recorded some details of the final judgment in Rev. 20:11-15,

“And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them. And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire”.

Yes that's right, the purpose of the final judgment is to give life (the knowledge of Christ) to those who don't have it. That is achieved by baptismal immersion in the lake of fire. 'Behold I am making all things new'. (Rev 21:5)

 

[Major1]

I just like to hear the gospel proclaimed in a way that glorifies God, rather than making Him out to be a mafioso (threatening ppl with the worst if they don't comply.) That kind of characterisation results in a rejection of God, a response with which I sympathise, because it's downright nasty.

I hear you but you must know that not all preachers are gloom and doom all the time. What do you think a preacher should then do when he comes across Scriptures such as Isaiah 30:9-10..........

"That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: 10Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits".

The prophet says that the Jews then were rebels, liars, they rejected the law, and told the prophets to LIE TO US and tell us "SMOOTH, wonderful deceitful things".

Now please read 2 Timothy 4:3-4.........
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

What is the difference between those two Scriptures???? About 28oo years!!!
That is all the difference as the people then are the same as people today.

People today are exactly what you just said YOU wanted to hear. People today want to hear SMOOTH things. They want to here lies and stories. They want to FEEL GOOD deep down because in reality, people are convinced that they are something special because they are good.

That is the kind of people today who can hear the gospel 100 times and still reject Christ becuase they do not need Him. THEY THINK they are good.

There is the problem which you so correctly said........."WE THINK".

Sound Bible doctrine can never be based on what WE THINK, experience or feel.

Preaching the Word of God is never NASTY. Do you really think that a preacher who exposes the sin of men, or explain the horrors' of Hell does so because he likes it????

NO my friend. He does it because those things are IN THE WORD OF GOD. If he does not speak truthfully to his people, then HE will have to explain why he didn't to Christ when he stands in front of Him to be judged.

Ezekiel 3:18 could not be any clearer.........
"When I say to a wicked person, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood."

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I hear you but you must know that not all preachers are gloom and doom all the time. What do you think a preacher should then do when he comes across Scriptures such as Isaiah 30:9-10..........

"That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: 10Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits".

The prophet says that the Jews then were rebels, liars, they rejected the law, and told the prophets to LIE TO US and tell us "SMOOTH, wonderful deceitful things".

Now please read 2 Timothy 4:3-4.........
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

What is the difference between those two Scriptures???? About 28oo years!!!
That is all the difference as the people then are the same as people today.

People today are exactly what you just said YOU wanted to hear. People today want to hear SMOOTH things. They want to here lies and stories. They want to FEEL GOOD deep down because in reality, people are convinced that they are something special because they are good.

That is the kind of people today who can hear the gospel 100 times and still reject Christ becuase they do not need Him. THEY THINK they are good.

There is the problem which you so correctly said........."WE THINK".

Sound Bible doctrine can never be based on what WE THINK, experience or feel.

Preaching the Word of God is never NASTY. Do you really think that a preacher who exposes the sin of men, or explain the horrors' of Hell does so because he likes it????

NO my friend. He does it because those things are IN THE WORD OF GOD. If he does not speak truthfully to his people, then HE will have to explain why he didn't to Christ when he stands in front of Him to be judged.

Ezekiel 3:18 could not be any clearer.........
"When I say to a wicked person, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood."

Sorry Major, I may not be making myself sufficiently clear. I'm not talking about 'tickling ears' and sugar-coating the gospel. The gospel is not about warning the average joe that they'll die in their sin unless they accept Christ. That preaching may have its place (as Jesus shows, to get through to hard-headed stubborn arrogant stupid pharisees who just refuse to accept him because they're so sure they're the 'chosen' ones), but it's not the gospel.

The gospel is proclaimed as glad tidings of great joy for all mankind. There's nothing great about a 'join us or die' ultimatum, that's pharisaical legalism at its worst, and precisely NOT what the advent of Christ is about. GRACE AND TRUTH, man.

 

[Major1]

The answer is not to ignore God's great and manifold promises of universal salvation, or for that matter to ignore the scriptures which appear to support eternal torment or annihilation of the wicked.

The good news is that they can be harmonised, but ONLY if we accept that all will be ultimately saved. I think I've explained that. We need to understand that when ppl are 'thrust out', they still may return, but only after correction/ repentance.



Sorry, 'we say' with the spirit of faith hope and love, the spirit of victory, the spirit of overcoming, of grace, of awe, of rejoicing...that God's word will not return void.



Yes that's right, the purpose of the final judgment is to give life (the knowledge of Christ) to those who don't have it. That is achieved by baptismal immersion in the lake of fire. 'Behold I am making all things new'. (Rev 21:5)

You are still taking Scriptures out of context and makeing them say what you want them to say.

NO one who preaches the Word of God whom I know ever ignores the great and manifold promises of God.

The basis for salvation is the Love of God for ALL people.

John 3:16.......
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now what did Jesus actually say???
" that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

"BELIEVETH IN HIM".

I am actually befuddled at how that Scripture can be so easily dismissed by anyone.

Then you said.......
"or for that matter to ignore the scriptures which appear to support eternal torment or annihilation of the wicked."

The truth here is that there are NO SCRIPTURES that support Annihilations or Universalism. They CAN NOT BE IGNORED because there are NONE to be ignored.

The Great White Throne is for all unbelievers and when they are judged guilty, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:13-14..........
"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

Now then.....there are NO Scriptures which say....."Those cast into the Lake of Fire will be then accept Christ as Savior which is achieved by baptismal immersion in the lake of fire. '

Again......for about the 20th time, please post the Scripture which says what YOU say it does.

You can not use Rev. 21:5 because being saved out of the LOF is NOT what the context is of that verse-
"Behold I am making all things new'. "

 

[Major1]

Sorry Major, I may not be making myself sufficiently clear. I'm not talking about 'tickling ears' and sugar-coating the gospel. The gospel is not about warning the average joe that they'll die in their sin unless they accept Christ. That preaching may have its place (as Jesus shows, to get through to hard-headed stubborn arrogant stupid pharisees who just refuse to accept him because they're so sure they're the 'chosen' ones), but it's not the gospel.

The gospel is proclaimed as glad tidings of great joy for all mankind. There's nothing great about a 'join us or die' ultimatum, that's pharisaical legalism at its worst, and precisely NOT what the advent of Christ is about. GRACE AND TRUTH, man.

I disagree.

The gospel is, broadly speaking, the whole of Scripture; more narrowly, the gospel is the good news concerning Christ and the way of salvation. The gospel is the GOOD news.

But if there is GOOD news, then there must also be BAD news.T he key to understanding the gospel is to know why it’s good news. To do that, we must start with the BAD NEWS.

The Old Testament Law was given to Israel during the time of Moses. The Law can be thought of as a measuring stick, and sin is anything that falls short of “perfect” according to that standard. The righteous requirement of the Law is so stringent that no human being could possibly follow it perfectly, in letter or in spirit. Despite our “goodness” or “badness” relative to each other, we are all in the same spiritual boat—we have sinned, and the punishment for sin is death, separation from God, the source of life.

In order for us to go to heaven, God’s dwelling place and the realm of life and light, sin must be somehow removed or paid for. The Law established the fact that cleansing from sin can only happen through the bloody sacrifice of an innocent life.

That innocent life was the perfect, sinless Lamb of God who is the Son of God. It was HE who was killed for us, died and was burried and rose again from the dead 3 days later.

 

[Major1]

Sorry Major, I may not be making myself sufficiently clear. I'm not talking about 'tickling ears' and sugar-coating the gospel. The gospel is not about warning the average joe that they'll die in their sin unless they accept Christ. That preaching may have its place (as Jesus shows, to get through to hard-headed stubborn arrogant stupid pharisees who just refuse to accept him because they're so sure they're the 'chosen' ones), but it's not the gospel.

The gospel is proclaimed as glad tidings of great joy for all mankind. There's nothing great about a 'join us or die' ultimatum, that's pharisaical legalism at its worst, and precisely NOT what the advent of Christ is about. GRACE AND TRUTH, man.

You said.......
"There's nothing great about a 'join us or die' ultimatum, that's pharisaical legalism at its worst, and precisely NOT what the advent of Christ is about."

I agree. The love of God is the basis for His Grace. If we fail to expand on the LOVE of God then people will come to God for the wrong reasons.

But.....that is a far cry from coming up with a False, noBibliblical dogma that embraces the idea that no matter who you are, or what you have done, do not worry, after you feel the fires of the Lake of Fire, then you will accept Christ and be removed from the LOF.

What my brother is the difference between .....
"There's nothing great about a 'join us or die' ultimatum, that's pharisaical legalism at its worst" and,

"no matter who you are, or what you have done, do not worry, after you feel the fires of the Lake of Fire, then you will accept Christ and be removed from the LOF."

YOU my friend are saying the same thing about both of those theologies.
"One says be saved today and miss the lake of fire. The other says, no worries, when you hit the LOF you will know it is real and then you will be saved."

 

[FineLinen]

Sorry Major, I may not be making myself sufficiently clear. I'm not talking about 'tickling ears' and sugar-coating the gospel. The gospel is not about warning the average joe that they'll die in their sin unless they accept Christ. That preaching may have its place (as Jesus shows, to get through to hard-headed stubborn arrogant stupid pharisees who just refuse to accept him because they're so sure they're the 'chosen' ones), but it's not the gospel.

The gospel is proclaimed as glad tidings of great joy for all mankind. There's nothing great about a 'join us or die' ultimatum, that's pharisaical legalism at its worst, and precisely NOT what the advent of Christ is about. GRACE AND TRUTH, man.

Dear Shrewd: Those good old Pharisees are still on the scene today. They encompass lands and sea to make one disciple only to make their conquests a two-fold child of hell more than themselves.

"Except a man be born again/anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God..."

There is only one way to see/ behold our Father & see His Kingdom, it is by being born anew. The initual experience comes completely outside of us. The ongoing experience is in the present progressive tense of be-being. Every time we are awakened in Him there is a fresh birthing into new horizons of His glorious Kingdom & Presence.

Jesus said, “You’re absolutely right. Take it from me: Unless a person is born from above, it’s not possible to see what I’m pointing to—to God’s kingdom.”

“How can anyone,” said Nicodemus, “be born who has already been born and grown up? You can’t re-enter your mother’s womb and be born again. What are you saying with this ‘born-from-above’ talk?”

Jesus said, “You’re not listening. Let me say it again. Unless a person submits to this original creation—the ‘wind-hovering-over-the-water’ creation, the invisible moving the visible, a baptism into a new life—it’s not possible to enter God’s kingdom....“So don’t be so surprised when I tell you that you have to be ‘born from above’—out of this world, so to speak. You know well enough how the wind blows this way and that. You hear it rustling through the trees, but you have no idea where it comes from. -MSG-

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Dear Shrewd: Those good old Pharisees are still on the scene today. They encompass lands and sea to make one disciple only to make their conquests a two-fold child of hell more than themselves.

"Except a man be born again/anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God..."

There is only one way to see/ behold our Father & see His Kingdom, it is by being born anew. The initual experience comes completely outside of us. The ongoing experience is in the present progressive tense of be-being. Every time we are awakened in Him there is a fresh birthing into new horizons of His glorious Kingdom & Presence.

Jesus said, “You’re absolutely right. Take it from me: Unless a person is born from above, it’s not possible to see what I’m pointing to—to God’s kingdom.”

“How can anyone,” said Nicodemus, “be born who has already been born and grown up? You can’t re-enter your mother’s womb and be born again. What are you saying with this ‘born-from-above’ talk?”

Jesus said, “You’re not listening. Let me say it again. Unless a person submits to this original creation—the ‘wind-hovering-over-the-water’ creation, the invisible moving the visible, a baptism into a new life—it’s not possible to enter God’s kingdom....“So don’t be so surprised when I tell you that you have to be ‘born from above’—out of this world, so to speak. You know well enough how the wind blows this way and that. You hear it rustling through the trees, but you have no idea where it comes from. -MSG-

True, man sees only what he wants to see. There's a way that seems right to him, but that way leads to death (Pro 14:10). When given the choice, in his fallen state man will always choose unwisely despite the explicit directions of God (Deut 30:15-20). Man after Adam is completely enslaved to sin and the devil who wields the power of death. HE CANNOT SAVE HIMSELF by his own efforts. A saviour, heaven's anointed messiah is needed to ransom man back from his imprisonment, to open blind eyes, free the slaves, liberate the captives and so on (Isa 61:1-3, Mt 11:5, Lk 4:18). Salvation is the work of God. God is Salvation. Are these not the essentials of the Christian faith?

Therefore how cruel it is to preach to fallen man that he must choose God else he will be condemned to burn forever. When it is precisely that very irrational and burdensome proposition from which he needs saving!

But He said, "Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. (Lk 11:46)

 

[FineLinen]

 

[FineLinen]

This is the spirit of one who follows the Lord in the withersoever of His steps. It is the true spirit of at-one-ment as our steps align with His.

Knowing Scripture is one thing, knowing the Father's ways reaches to where the "wind words" of Spirit and His Life are found.

Lord, teach us to pray.