The Lake Of Fire

[Major1]

I ALWAYS include the reference. Do you have any more excuses?

You asked a question and I gave you an answer which was NOT AN EXCUSE in any way.

Now as usual, would you please post the Scriptures which YOUR parter has claimed in that THE LOST WHO ARE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE, INCLUDING SATAN, WILL BE SAVED AND REMOVED FROM THE LAKE OF FIRE ANT TAKEN TO HEAVEN.

Why not post those Scriptures Steve instead of the evasive comments and accusations of things that do not exist???

 

[Major1]

Pretty paradoxical. You must post how it validates universalism, but the same can always be discarded as opinion.

Not so my friend. I am not the one who is advocating Universalism. It is up the the person or person who are doing so to post the Bible Scriptures that THEY claim support Universalism.

 

[Jord Simcha]

I DO NOT have a personal opinion. I and the others who oppose your opinions make exegesis of Scriptures which are found in the Bible.

YOU and your partner are simply make opinions of what YOU want the Scriptures to say instead of correctly allowing them to speak to you.

Sure you do. Your opinion has been that eternal punishment verses can not be debated or reinterpreted but all (things) can. That's an opinion.

 

[Saint Steven]

Steve, I think you have misunderstood what I have said.
I have not "inferred" anything.
I am saying clearly and very simply that what you are trying to convince others of ......
"A second chance at being saved AFTER DEATH and then being removed from the Lake of Fire"..........DOES NOT EXIST IN THE BIBLE!

I am sure that You and the others on here who are believing in such a thing are really great people and your intentions are worthy, BUT my dear friend, there is simply NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES to support such an idea.

You are of course free to believe anything you want to believe and all I am saying that you can not use the Bible to support something that is does not teach.

This is a great example from your post #657.
Here's what I posted. Note the scripture reference.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Our position on the final judgment (one of three biblically supported views) is NOT simply "human knowledge". Nor is it "apart from God" as you are inferring.

I needed to be convinced from scripture to be released from Damnationism. (one of three biblically supported views of the final judgment) The biblical support for UR raised many questions. (even though you claim there is no support)

It really began with this verse below. (note the two bolded phrases) Especially of those who believe? Damnationism claims that salvation is LIMITED to those who believe. This says salvation is for ALL people. I had to know more.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Jord Simcha]

Not so my friend. I am not the one who is advocating Universalism. It is up the the person or person who are doing so to post the Bible Scriptures that THEY claim support Universalism.

I have done so in the OP of my thread. With hardly any opinion added. Just the verses plainly.

 

[Saint Steven]

I DO NOT have a personal opinion. I and the others who oppose your opinions make exegesis of Scriptures which are found in the Bible.

YOU and your partner are simply make opinions of what YOU want the Scriptures to say instead of correctly allowing them to speak to you.

Exegesis can vary, therefore opinion.
Do all exegesis agree? (nope) Because they are interpretive opinions about a text.
Your exegesis is no more valid than ours. More intellectual dishonesty.

 

[Major1]

Angry with themselves probably. Especially in the light of God being a perfect judge.

I wouldn't say criminals act like that necessarily. I presume a lot of them in prison blame themselves for being there.

Well, as far as I know it isn't explicitly in the Bible so we can't be certain how it will go, whether it is sudden or not either.

When I just found out God exists I was happy but my happiness about it was soon replaced with fear. I can't say for certain but I believe that'll be most people's reaction to finding out.

I believe the Word of God won't lose its effect so the fear of the Lord will still lead to life, imo.
How? By the Word of God, right? Must be. How they'll receive it, I don't know.

I believe that the Word of God says that the people in the Lake of Fire will have the one ability that will be the worst of all the things they will endure......
MEMORY!

 

[Major1]

Exegesis can vary, therefore opinion.
Do all exegesis agree? (nope) Because they are interpretive opinions about a text.
Your exegesis is no more valid than ours. More intellectual dishonesty.

Steve.....you have shown us nothing whatsoever from the Bible that supports Universal Salvation.

 

[Saint Steven]

You asked a question and I gave you an answer which was NOT AN EXCUSE in any way.

Now as usual, would you please post the Scriptures which YOUR parter has claimed in that THE LOST WHO ARE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE, INCLUDING SATAN, WILL BE SAVED AND REMOVED FROM THE LAKE OF FIRE ANT TAKEN TO HEAVEN.

Why not post those Scriptures Steve instead of the evasive comments and accusations of things that do not exist???

I didn't post that comment. Why do you require me to substantiate it?
I'm guessing you already asked FL. He either answered or didn't.
Why do you persist? You were probably misquoting him anyway.
I'm pretty sure FL said nothing about a FIRE ANT. - lol

 

[Jord Simcha]

I believe that the Word of God says that the people in the Lake of Fire will have the one ability that will be the worst of all the things they will endure......
MEMORY!

I have no idea what verse(s) you base this on.

 

[Saint Steven]

Steve.....you have shown us nothing whatsoever from the Bible that supports Universal Salvation.

Here are the same ten I gave you earlier. All with references.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Der Alte]

Why is Proverbs 19:23 out of context?
What makes it futile after death?
Of course I know the wicked aren't perfected in love. Not sure what your point is.

Pardon me while a provide an answer to a question you asked some one else.
What makes it futile after death? First there is, as far as I can determine, not one single verse which states clearly and unequivocally that the unrighteous will be saved after death.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
JPS Pro 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

 

[Jord Simcha]

Pardon me while a provide an answer to a question you asked some one else.
What makes it futile after death?

Yes, the Word of God. I understand it to be eternally true. You haven't disputed that. So I believe the fear of the Lord leads to life, also after death.

First there is, as far as I can determine, not one single verse which states clearly and unequivocally that the unrighteous will be saved after death.

There are verses that say things like Jesus gives life (un)to the world, that He came that the world might be saved, that God will reconcile all things to himself, etc.

I like the use of determine here, because you seem determined to explain them in light of doom.

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day:

the night cometh, when no man can work.

Not sure what this means. Are you suggesting that the day is now, and after death is night?
Doesn't really say that. It is about Jesus' works. Not sure how this relates to anything we must do to be saved.

Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Seems obvious, dead people can't do anything. Ok.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Interesting. How about them that can't lose their reward? Matthew 10:42

Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

This is the best verse as far as making your point.

I wonder though, here it says they shall not rise, but what about the resurrection of the wicked?
I'm not sure how to interpret them both at the same time correctly.

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Not sure if this is just supposed to make us fear death or something.

Psalms 88:10-11
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

This is ambiguous in my opinion. David seems to be wondering this.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Carpe diem?

JPS Pro 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.

Not for the evil man, but for the repentant former evil man there is.

I also wonder how literal I should take this. It's not like all criminals die instantly after becoming truly evil.

Ephesians 2:12
(12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Interesting isn't it, the mention of having no hope, but it being in the past. This is cause for optimism in my opinion. Those without hope can gain it.

1Thessalonians 4:13
(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Oh we don't have to sorrow about the dead. Perhaps we have reason to be optimistic.

Psalms 115:17
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Seems obvious. The first part could be about the spiritual dead, because they also do not praise the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

​

You posted that one twice.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, the Word of God. I understand it to be eternally true. You haven't disputed that. So I believe the fear of the Lord leads to life, also after death.
There are verses that say things like Jesus gives life (un)to the world, that He came that the world might be saved, that God will reconcile all things to himself, etc.
I like the use of determine here, because you seem determined to explain them in light of doom.
Not sure what this means. Are you suggesting that the day is now, and after death is night?
Doesn't really say that. It is about Jesus' works. Not sure how this relates to anything we must do to be saved.
Seems obvious, dead people can't do anything. Ok.
Interesting. How about them that can't lose their reward? Matthew 10:42
This is the best verse as far as making your point.
I wonder though, here it says they shall not rise, but what about the resurrection of the wicked?
I'm not sure how to interpret them both at the same time correctly.
Not sure if this is just supposed to make us fear death or something.
This is ambiguous in my opinion. David seems to be wondering this.
Carpe diem?
Not for the evil man, but for the repentant former evil man there is.
I also wonder how literal I should take this. It's not like all criminals die instantly after becoming truly evil.
Interesting isn't it, the mention of having no hope, but it being in the past. This is cause for optimism in my opinion. Those without hope can gain it.
Oh we don't have to sorrow about the dead. Perhaps we have reason to be optimistic.
Seems obvious. The first part could be about the spiritual dead, because they also do not praise the Lord.
You posted that one twice.

A wasted post full of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Posting what you think is an alternate interpretation does not refute anything I said.

 

[Jord Simcha]

A wasted post full of "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Posting what you think is an alternate interpretation does not refute anything I said.

Sad that you don't even appreciate somebody taking the time to react to each and every verse you posted.

If your understanding is so much better, you should be prepared to share your insights. It's what shepherds do, which them that went through the door are. John 10:2

You didn't refute Proverbs 19:23 either with your large post, which you were trying to do.

 

[Der Alte]

Sad that you don't even appreciate somebody taking the time to react to each and every verse you posted.
If your understanding is so much better, you should be prepared to share your insights. It's what shepherds do, which them that went through the door are. John 10:2
You didn't refute Proverbs 19:23 either with your large post, which you were trying to do.

Why should I try to refute Prov 19:23? You did not explain how you thought it applied. First you must show that the wicked etc. in the LOF experience the type of "fear" rather "reverent respect" that leads to repentance.
I explained why I rejected your post. You did not show conclusively that I was incorrect and you were correct. As I said posting an alternate interpretation does not show conclusively that I was wrong.
You dismissed one verse saying "Doesn't really say that. It is about Jesus' works. Not sure how this relates to anything we must do to be saved." Jesus said "I must do the works of the father because the night is coming when NO MAN can work." Jesus said "no man can work, He did not say "I cannot work." See Eccl 9:10.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

 

[Jord Simcha]

Why should I try to refute Prov 19:23? You did not explain how you thought it applied. First you must show that the wicked etc. in the LOF experience the type of "fear" rather "reverent respect" that leads to repentance.

Oh now I must show that the wicked will fear God. lol. Great.

"And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing."
Psalm 64:9

Let me guess. All men does not mean all men here, amirite

I explained why I rejected your post. You did not show conclusively that I was incorrect and you were correct. As I said posting an alternate interpretation does not show conclusively that I was wrong.

And you did not show conclusively that I was wrong, which was the purpose of your post.

There was a basis to address my points. You just generalized them and put them down.

You dismissed one verse saying "Doesn't really say that. It is about Jesus' works. Not sure how this relates to anything we must do to be saved." Jesus said "I must do the works of the father because the night is coming when NO MAN can work." Jesus said "no man can work, He did not say "I cannot work." See Eccl 9:10.

Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

When no man can work. I have no idea when this is. Probably a weak answer again in your eyes.

 

[Der Alte]

Oh now I must show that the wicked will fear God. lol. Great.
"And all men shall fear, and shall declare the work of God; for they shall wisely consider of his doing."
Psalm 64:9
Let me guess. All men does not mean all men here, amirite

Have you ever heard of "context?" That is a prayer what the psalmist, presumably David, wants God to do.

Psalms 64:1
1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. Hear my voice, O God, in my prayer: preserve my life from fear of the enemy.​

And you did not show conclusively that I was wrong, which was the purpose of your post.

This is a forum which believes in the Nicene Creed. The burden of proof is on those who want to challenge the traditional beliefs. I think I have disproved the UR interpretation of most of their proof texts. One person posted 36 +/- verses I asked him to pick out his best, strongest verses and I would address them. Still waiting for a response.

There was a basis to address my points. You just generalized them and put them down.
When no man can work. I have no idea when this is. Probably a weak answer again in your eyes.

Do you have any scripture which shows the dead in the grave or elsewhere working?

Ecclesiastes 9:10
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

Anything a person chooses to do must be done in this life they can do nothing after death.

 

[Major1]

Here are the same ten I gave you earlier. All with references.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

This is actually becoming embarrassing for you. NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE YOU POSTED SUPPORTS WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!!!

It must be ME as I have read those same Scriptures and for the life of me I can not find the words.....'THOSE LOST SINNERS IN THE LAKE OF FIRE WILL ACCEPT CHRIST AND BE SAVE AND THEN REMOVED FROM THE LAKE OF FIRE".

THAT is what you believe and THAT is what you have been espousing so why can't you find and post the Scripture that says what you say.

Now Steve, have you removed these Scriptures from your Bible????

Revelation 20:15.......
"And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Psalms 9:17.........
“The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”

The “wicked” are those whose sins are not forgiven. The only way anyone can have their sins forgiven is by trusting Christ’s death on the cross as payment for their sins.
CHOICE!!!!!

2 Thess. 1:8.........
“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

Luke 16: 22-24......
“And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

Matthew 25:46
“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

 

[Major1]

I have no idea what verse(s) you base this on.

That just means that YOU have not done enough Bible study to know that.

Allow me to help you my brother.

Luke 16:20-26...........
"At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Then in verse 28.........
"for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

He REMEMBERED that he had five brothers.