The Lake Of Fire

[Major1]

"But the fearful and unbelieving shall have their part in the Lake that burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death." -Rev. 21:8

It will be necessary to consider the entire context of this verse, if we desire to understand its message. It opens with the vision of the great white throne, (Rev. 20:14), and we find that after the judgment of that great day, so far from death and hell continuing, they are "cast into the lake of fire" - very unlike the fundamentalist popular view.

Then comes a declaration that God is to dwell with men - not with the saints - but with men, and that as a consequence, they shall be His people, and God shall be with them and be their God.

It is distinctly said, there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain. Is this not a denial of an endless hell rather than an affirmation of it - most assuredly, an emphatic denial of such a doctrine?

Then comes a voice from the throne with a glorious promise,

"Behold I make all things new," not some things.

Note:

This promise is remarkably emphasized, it opens with the word "Behold," to draw attention to it:

It closes with the command to write it, "for these words are true and faithful."

Was there no reason for this?

Is there not thus attention drawn to this as the central point of the whole vision, i.e., all things made new ?" -Christ Triumphant-

The alternative would be to suggest that we are but a little justified, and we are progressively becoming more and more justified through the course of our Christian walk.

But that does not make sense at all. I am either justified or not justified. But these are mutually exclusive terms. I cannot be a little justified before God. That is just not a meaningful statement.

If I am condemned for my sins, then I am condemned, and not justified. In this way, justification could not be ongoing because there is no sense in which someone could be a little justified and a little unjustified. Is justification a process? It seems that there is no sense that we can consider this issue that does not depart from the biblical testimony of the Christian or a logical understanding of salvation.

Is Justification A Process?

 

[FineLinen]

No it is not.

Justification is an instant event.

The begins the "Process" of Sanctification.

Have you placed your reading glasses on?

Are you focusing?

I will post it again.

Justification, or being accounted righteous, is a one time happening.

"Being made the righteousess of God in Him", however, is an ongoing work of Theos, NOT a one time experience, but an ongoing process of an active verb.

 

[FineLinen]

Apollumi =

On the following pages you will see the many ways the word "apollumi" is used in the New Testament. You will see that sometimes it is translated "lost" such as in the "lost" sheep, when the sheep was alive. In other places, the same word, "apollumi," is translated "perish" or "destroyed" and the implication in these last two instances is that the individual is dead.

The "Destruction" of the Wicked

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You can post and post and post your opinions but they only effect YOU!!!

Salvation of all fulfils John 3:16. As the following scriptures make clear, Jesus' mission is to save the world from condemnation. Now he wouldn't be much of a saviour if he didn't actually do that, now would he? Simple, God loves the world and so send Jesus to save it. What's so hard to understand?

So idk how you can possibly claim to have righteous interpretation of the Bible when you just take scripture like John 3:16 out of its context like that, and just roll off with a handful of disconnected scriptures that sound tough and mean as standalone.

 

[Der Alte]

Salvation of all fulfils John 3:16. As the following scriptures make clear, Jesus' mission is to save the world from condemnation. Now he wouldn't be much of a saviour if he didn't actually do that, now would he? Simple, God loves the world and so send Jesus to save it. What's so hard to understand?
So idk how you can possibly claim to have righteous interpretation of the Bible when you just take scripture like John 3:16 out of its context like that, and just roll off with a handful of disconnected scriptures that sound tough and mean as standalone.

You are the one taking John 3:16 out-of-context. Here is Jn 3:16 in-context from the only unbiased literal version.

EOB John 3:14-20
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, likewise, the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his uniquely-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 Certainly, God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world should be saved through him.
18 Anyone who believes in him is not judged, but whoever does not believe has already been judged, because such a person has not believed in the Name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 This is the judgment: that the light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone who practices evil hates the light and does not come to the light, for fear that his works would be exposed.
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Jn 3:14–20). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

Note, vs. 15 and 16 "everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life." Here Jesus has twice defined "aionios" as eternal by pairing it with shall not perish.
The converse of that is everyone who does not believe in him does not have eternal life but shall perish.
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis?” etc.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. Whoever has doubts/questions about the EOB version I suggest they read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

 

[Major1]

Salvation of all fulfils John 3:16. As the following scriptures make clear, Jesus' mission is to save the world from condemnation. Now he wouldn't be much of a saviour if he didn't actually do that, now would he? Simple, God loves the world and so send Jesus to save it. What's so hard to understand?

So idk how you can possibly claim to have righteous interpretation of the Bible when you just take scripture like John 3:16 out of its context like that, and just roll off with a handful of disconnected scriptures that sound tough and mean as standalone.

Again x 20......NO, John 3:16 DOES NOT FULFILL ALL will be saved!

Read the Scripture....... "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Those in the Lake of Fire did not believe in Christ. They died in their fires and will be in torments eternally BECAUSE THEY DID NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE TO DO SO!!

How can I claim the proper interpretation of Scriptures? The same reason any Christian who has actually read the Bible and is indwelled by the Holy Spirit can do as along as the interpretation is consistent with the totality of the said Scriptures.

Now lets do some CONTEXTUAL Bible study so as to help your understanding. In the 3rd chapter of John, Jesus was talking to Nicodemus, who, we read, amazed Jesus by his ignorance of holy matters. Jesus was re-teaching this priest in the ‘process’ of salvation.

In verse 15 we are told very clearly that only those who believe in Him would be saved. The same word for the believers is used – ‘whosoever’. John goes on to say, in the next verse, that those who believe will not perish.

Now for anyone to not understand that means you have made a conciouse decision to reject the Word of God over your own opinion.

The same ‘world’ (whosoever = the saved) would be saved (verse 17), or would not perish. He who believes is not condemned (verse 18) but he who is an unbeliever is condemned already. Thus, verse 3:16 has nothing at all to do with unbelievers, but only with the saved. It is a text meant for the encouragement of the saved, not for the evangelisation of unbelievers.

Now then, please do not accept my interpretation. Take YOUR time to do the study as I have done so that you can be considered a "workman, right dividing the Word of God".

In verse 19 the meaning of ‘world’ is different, for it refers to the unsaved masses. This is also clear, and it shows us how careful we ought to be when providing meanings for Biblical texts: the same word can mean different things even in the same context.

Really, this is very simple. It is men who have made the matter difficult. Some accuse that in going back to the Greek text we are somehow barring folk who cannot use it from understanding. This is not true. We only do this when those who are preaching badly or wrongly persuade men to believe a lie!

Thanks for your input and the opportunity to one again expound the Word of God for those interested.

 

[Der Alte]

***

<Major1>>>Again x 20......NO, John 3:16 DOES NOT FULFILL ALL will be saved!
Read the Scripture....... "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Those in the Lake of Fire did not believe in Christ. They died in their fires and will be in torments eternally BECAUSE THEY DID NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE TO DO SO!!
How can I claim the proper interpretation of Scriptures? The same reason any Christian who has actually read the Bible and is indwelled by the Holy Spirit can do as along as the interpretation is consistent with the totality of the said Scriptures.
Now lets do some CONTEXTUAL Bible study so as to help your understanding. In the 3rd chapter of John, Jesus was talking to Nicodemus, who, we read, amazed Jesus by his ignorance of holy matters. Jesus was re-teaching this priest in the ‘process’ of salvation.
In verse 15 we are told very clearly that only those who believe in Him would be saved. The same word for the believers is used – ‘whosoever’. John goes on to say, in the next verse, that those who believe will not perish.
Now for anyone to not understand that means you have made a conciouse decision to reject the Word of God over your own opinion.
The same ‘world’ (whosoever = the saved) would be saved (verse 17), or would not perish. He who believes is not condemned (verse 18) but he who is an unbeliever is condemned already. Thus, verse 3:16 has nothing at all to do with unbelievers, but only with the saved. It is a text meant for the encouragement of the saved, not for the evangelisation of unbelievers.
Now then, please do not accept my interpretation. Take YOUR time to do the study as I have done so that you can be considered a "workman, right dividing the Word of God".
In verse 19 the meaning of ‘world’ is different, for it refers to the unsaved masses. This is also clear, and it shows us how careful we ought to be when providing meanings for Biblical texts: the same word can mean different things even in the same context.
Really, this is very simple. It is men who have made the matter difficult. Some accuse that in going back to the Greek text we are somehow barring folk who cannot use it from understanding. This is not true. We only do this when those who are preaching badly or wrongly persuade men to believe a lie!
Thanks for your input and the opportunity to one again expound the Word of God for those interested.<<<Major1>

***

What most heterodox religious groups cannot understand is "Expressio Unius Est Exclusio Alterius" "the explicit mention of one ( thing) is the exclusion of another" "
"whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." The converse of this verse is "Whosoever believes not in Him should perish, not having eternal life."

 

[FineLinen]

Salvation of all fulfils John 3:16. As the following scriptures make clear, Jesus' mission is to save the world from condemnation. Now he wouldn't be much of a saviour if he didn't actually do that, now would he? Simple, God loves the world and so send Jesus to save it. What's so hard to understand?

So idk how you can possibly claim to have righteous interpretation of the Bible when you just take scripture like John 3:16 out of its context like that, and just roll off with a handful of disconnected scriptures that sound tough and mean as standalone.

Brother Shrewd: 63 years ago a wonderful journey into Him began for me.

Some of what I have learned (so far) =

1. Learn to trust Him who does all things well.

2. Nothing the Father of all fathers does is not for good & His good pleasure.

3. What Abba is against, so am I.

4. Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.

5. Where He dwells I want to be.

 

[FineLinen]

What is the meaning of the word "pure"?

1. Free from anything of a different, inferior, or contaminating kind; free from extraneous matter: pure gold; pure water.

2. Unmodified by an admixture; simple or homogeneous.
of unmixed descent or ancestry.

3. Free from foreign or inappropriate elements.

4. Clear/ free from blemishes.

Koine=

Hagnos = pure from defilement.

From hagios = HOLY.

Katharos = cleansed by fire. Pure.

 

[FineLinen]

The Consuming Fire

Nothing is inexorable but love. Love which will yield to prayer is imperfect and poor. Nor is it then the love that yields, but its alloy. For if at the voice of entreaty love conquers displeasure, it is love asserting itself, not love yielding its claims. It is not love that grants a boon unwillingly; still less is it love that answers a prayer to the wrong and hurt of him who prays. Love is one, and love is changeless.

For love loves unto purity. Love has ever in view the absolute loveliness of that which it beholds. Where loveliness is incomplete, and love cannot love its fill of loving, it spends itself to make more lovely, that it may love more; it strives for perfection, even that itself may be perfected–not in itself, but in the object. As it was…

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: The Consuming Fire

 

[Major1]

Brother Shrewd: 63 years ago a wonderful journey into Him began for me.

Some of what I have learned (so far) =

1. Learn to trust Him who does all things well.

2. Nothing the Father of all fathers does is not for good & His good pleasure.

3. What Abba is against, so am I.

4. Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him.

5. Where He dwells I want to be.

I actually do not think that what you have learned is any different than any other born again Believer has experienced. Every thing you posted is included in the process of Sanctification as we who are saved are drawn closer to the one who has saved us.
But that is just my opinion.

 

[FineLinen]

I actually do not think that what you have learned is any different than any other born again Believer has experienced. Every thing you posted is included in the process of Sanctification as we who are saved are drawn closer to the one who has saved us.
But that is just my opinion.

I can only testify to the bedrock of what the Master is for me.

The process is one of cascading dimensions, leading to further experience of His majestic interference in our broken beings.

Justification is a one time experience, being made the righteousness of God in Him, a mighty process of His conquests.

 

[Major1]

I can only testify to the bedrock of what the Master is for me.

The process is one of cascading dimensions, leading to further experience of His majestic interference in our broken beings.

Justification is a one time experience, being made the righteousness of God in Him, a mighty process of His conquests.

And your experience is the same as everyone else who has come to the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

May I say to you with respect and Christian love that to “know” something is to perceive it or to be aware of it. Many times in Scripture, knowledge carries the idea of a deeper appreciation of something or a relationship with someone. The Bible is clear that the knowledge of God is the most valuable knowledge a human being can possess. But it is also clear that simply being aware of God’s existence is not sufficient; the knowledge of God must encompass the deep appreciation for and relationship with Him.

Proverbs 2:6 ..........
"For the Lord gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding".

Human knowledge, apart from God, is flawed. The Bible also refers to it as worthless because it isn’t tempered by love.

 

[FineLinen]

And your experience is the same as everyone else who has come to the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Au Contraire.

Every individual drawn into the Christ is one that is manifold in its operation. We all are on different stages of a journey that culminates in the God of Glory, and His House with many dwelling places.

The Road into that wonderful experience of progression?

"A believer is someone who dies before he dies. An unbeliever needs to die after he dies."

 

[Saint Steven]

Human knowledge, apart from God, is flawed. The Bible also refers to it as worthless because it isn’t tempered by love.

Our position on the final judgment (one of three biblically supported views) is NOT simply "human knowledge". Nor is it "apart from God" as you are inferring.

I needed to be convinced from scripture to be released from Damnationism. (one of three biblically supported views of the final judgment) The biblical support for UR raised many questions. (even though you claim there is no support)

It really began with this verse below. (note the two bolded phrases) Especially of those who believe? Damnationism claims that salvation is LIMITED to those who believe. This says salvation is for ALL people. I had to know more.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Der Alte]

...

The Consuming Fire
Nothing is inexorable but love. Love which will yield to prayer is imperfect and poor. Nor is it then the love that yields, but its alloy. For if at the voice of entreaty love conquers displeasure, it is love asserting itself, not love yielding its claims. It is not love that grants a boon unwillingly; still less is it love that answers a prayer to the wrong and hurt of him who prays. Love is one, and love is changeless.
For love loves unto purity. Love has ever in view the absolute loveliness of that which it beholds. Where loveliness is incomplete, and love cannot love its fill of loving, it spends itself to make more lovely, that it may love more; it strives for perfection, even that itself may be perfected–not in itself, but in the object. As it was…

Unfortunately the writings of George MacDonald are not canon.

 

[Major1]

Our position on the final judgment (one of three biblically supported views) is NOT simply "human knowledge". Nor is it "apart from God" as you are inferring.

I needed to be convinced from scripture to be released from Damnationism. (one of three biblically supported views of the final judgment) The biblical support for UR raised many questions. (even though you claim there is no support)

It really began with this verse below. (note the two bolded phrases) Especially of those who believe? Damnationism claims that salvation is LIMITED to those who believe. This says salvation is for ALL people. I had to know more.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Steve, I think you have misunderstood what I have said.
I have not "inferred" anything.
I am saying clearly and very simply that what you are trying to convince others of ......
"A second chance at being saved AFTER DEATH and then being removed from the Lake of Fire"..........DOES NOT EXIST IN THE BIBLE!

I am sure that You and the others on here who are believing in such a thing are really great people and your intentions are worthy, BUT my dear friend, there is simply NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES to support such an idea.

You are of course free to believe anything you want to believe and all I am saying that you can not use the Bible to support something that is does not teach.

 

[Major1]

Au Contraire.

Every individual drawn into the Christ is one that is manifold in its operation. We all are on different stages of a journey that culminates in the God of Glory, and His House with many dwelling places.

The Road into that wonderful experience of progression?

"A believer is someone who dies before he dies. An unbeliever needs to die after he dies."

I agree which is why the Bible calls the Lake of Fire, THE SECOND DEATH!

Yes, we are all on the road to discovery and YES we are ALL at different levels of understanding.

I am sure that in time you will grow in knowledge and that all of you will see the truth of God's Word.

Now again......Please understand that most of what you post I agree with.

However where we part my brother is when You say that those wicked lost in the Lake of Fire WILL BE SAVED and then REMOVED FROM the Lake of Fire because again..........
THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THAT OR SUGGEST THAT.

There is no such thing in the Bible as Purgatory OR a second chance to be saved after death.

Now, if you want to continue to post your opinons please go right ahead and do so, however you CAN NOT use any Bible Scriptures to validate your opinion because there are NONE.

Now do you want to know why I say that?? OF course you do.

IF there was just ONE Scripture that said......"Those lost people in the LOF will accept Jesus and be saved and then removed from the LOF, You and Steve and the others would have posted them.

You havent done that because you can not do that. WHY? Because THERE ARE NONE!

 

[Jord Simcha]

Now again......Please understand that most of what you post I agree with.

However where we part my brother is when You say that those wicked lost in the Lake of Fire WILL BE SAVED and then REMOVED FROM the Lake of Fire because again..........
THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THAT OR SUGGEST THAT.

There is no such thing in the Bible as Purgatory OR a second chance to be saved after death.

Now, if you want to continue to post your opinons please go right ahead and do so, however you CAN NOT use any Bible Scriptures to validate your opinion because there are NONE.

Now do you want to know why I say that?? OF course you do.

IF there was just ONE Scripture that said......"Those lost people in the LOF will accept Jesus and be saved and then removed from the LOF, You and Steve and the others would have posted them.

You havent done that because you can not do that. WHY? Because THERE ARE NONE!

Who do you think the Spirit and bride are calling in Revelation 22:17, if not the unbelievers?

 

[FineLinen]

I am saying clearly and very simply that what you are trying to convince others of ......
"A second chance at being saved AFTER DEATH

There clearly is no chance within our Father. Zero!

No 1st, 2nd, third: NO CHANCE!

What He determines within Himself is the final outcome.

No surprises for the Creator

God is Omniscient

“His understanding is infinite; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done.”

“Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world.” Psalm 147:5; Isa. 46:10; Acts 15:18.

God knew when he created Adam what would be the eternal destiny of every individual of his offspring, as surely as He will know when the last generation of man shall have enteredf inal state.

If all are to be saved, He knew it; and if part damned/annihilated, the fate of each individual soul was known to Him.

These conclusions are just as certain as that God’s knowledge is infinite.

God must have designed what He knew would be the eternal destiny of each individual of our race.

If He knew all would be saved, He must have designed the salvation of all; and if he knew part would be saved, and part damned without relief and without end, He must have designed the salvation of some and the damnation of others.

Every man designs what he knows will be the result of his voluntary acts. If I know when I speak to a certain person he will fall at my feet dead, and if I persist in speaking to him with this knowledge of the consequence, I, of course, intend he shall die; so if God knows the destiny of all men all who go into Him by His decree, and all who go to hell will go there by his decree.

This is just as certain as that two and two make four.

God has not created conscious beings, knowing and intending that eternal misery would be their doom!

It is impossible, utterly impossible!