The Lake Of Fire

[Major1]

Them other folks argue that "'I never knew you' doesn't mean that they can't be reconciled later on." What they don't realize is this passage "that day" refers to judgement day. There is no second chance after that. Also Jesus did not say "I don't know you." Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. "Never' doesn't just refer to the past.

It seems to me that Steve, and Linnnen and the others theology is based on Catholic teaching of Purgatory which also is NOT found in the Bible.

Maybe we should ask if they are Catholic believers????

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You poor dear lad.

The disobedient dead, according to the Scripture, had a wee visit from the resurrected Christ of Glory. That wee visit had outstanding dimensions of zao at work.

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit."

That's a beautiful scripture that teaches us the purpose and effect of the gospel - to give life of the spirit to the dead in the flesh.

So we can keep this in mind when we read the references to 'death' and 'life' in Revelation, which can be confusing and easy to misread unless we grasp the spiritual-allegorical meaning.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It seems to me that Steve, and Linnnen and the others theology is based on Catholic teaching of Purgatory which also is NOT found in the Bible.

Maybe we should ask if they are Catholic believers????

Well, you see the Catholics actually were forced by a process of REASON to introduce Purgatory. Augustinian doctrine had rendered it that, as nobody dies without sin, NONE make it to heaven. Total blowdown! So Purgatory was brought in as the 'release valve' for those on the right track. Indulge me lol?

Protestantism, on the other hand, did away with the need for reason entirely, replacing it with MAGIC. Just believe, incant the sinner's prayer and hey presto! you're in. But woe to you if you don't - down you go, the Catholic hell was a cakewalk compared to that of the Puritans.

 

[FineLinen]

I am not poor in any way but I am certainly a DEAR person as you already know!!!

The message to the 7 churches is to those Christians who think everything is okey-dokey.

"You say, I am rich, and have wealth stored up, and I stand in need of nothing; but you do not know that if there is a wretched creature it is you -- pitiable, poor, blind, naked."

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see."

The initial experience of justification by faith is not the process of being made the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[Major1]

Well, you see the Catholics actually were forced by a process of REASON to introduce Purgatory. Augustinian doctrine had rendered it that, as nobody dies without sin, NONE make it to heaven. Total blowdown! So Purgatory was brought in as the 'release valve' for those on the right track. Indulge me lol?

Protestantism, on the other hand, did away with the need for reason entirely, replacing it with MAGIC. Just believe, incant the sinner's prayer and hey presto! you're in. But woe to you if you don't - down you go, the Catholic hell was a cakewalk compared to that of the Puritans.

Didn't the Catholics try to make the Bible say what they wanted it to say just like you are doing, and Didn't the Protestants just accept the Bible as it was written and believe it????

 

[Major1]

The message to the 7 churches is to those Christians who think everything is okey-dokey.

"You say, I am rich, and have wealth stored up, and I stand in need of nothing; but you do not know that if there is a wretched creature it is you -- pitiable, poor, blind, naked."

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see."

The initial experience of justification by faith is not the process of being made the righteousness of God in Him.

Actually the message you quoted was to ONE of the Seven churches in Asia Minor.

It was the church at Laodica. It was the "lukewarm" church which Jesus REJECTED because it was not hot or cold.

 

[Major1]

That's a beautiful scripture that teaches us the purpose and effect of the gospel - to give life of the spirit to the dead in the flesh.

So we can keep this in mind when we read the references to 'death' and 'life' in Revelation, which can be confusing and easy to misread unless we grasp the spiritual-allegorical meaning.

Unfortunately, in some Christian denominations, varied interpretations of scripture passages are accepted because people want to choose for themselves what verses mean. This departure from sound doctrine was foretold:

2 Timothy 4:3-4......
"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths."

2 Peter 3:16...…….
"There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. "

Standard Bible interpretation in evangelical Christianity follows a method called the “literal, historical, grammatical, contextual” approach:

That is, we try to find the plain (literal) meaning of the words based on an understanding of the historical and cultural settings in which the book was written. We then follow standard rules of grammar, according to the book’s particular genre, to arrive at an interpretation. We seek to perform careful interpretation or exegesis—that is, to “read out of” the text what the author intended it to mean. This is in contrast to eisegesis, which occurs when someone “reads into” the text his own ideas—what the reader wants the text to mean. In other words, exegesis is finding the AIM (Author’s Intended Meaning) of the passage because its true meaning is determined by the sender of the message, not the recipient.

This hermeneutical approach has several strengths. It can be demonstrated that the New Testament authors interpreted the Old Testament in this manner. Also, it is the only approach that offers an internal system of “checks and balances” to make sure one is on the right track. As will be shown, other views allow for personal opinion to sneak into one’s interpretation, which does not truly reflect what the text means.

(Source: How We Interpret the Bible: Principles for Understanding)

 

[FineLinen]

Actually the message you quoted was to ONE of the Seven churches in Asia Minor.

It was the church at Laodica. It was the "lukewarm" church which Jesus REJECTED because it was not hot or cold.

Good grief!

Try and focus on the text.

1. I am rich I stand in need of nothing.

2. You are blind.

3. You are naked.

4. You are wretched.

Remedy =

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see."

The message to the 7 churches is to those Christians who think everything is okey-dokey.

"You say, I am rich, and have wealth stored up, and I stand in need of nothing; but you do not know that if there is a wretched creature it is you -- pitiable, poor, blind, naked."

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see."

The initial experience of justification by faith is not the process of being made the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Didn't the Protestants just accept the Bible as it was written and believe it????

All 33,000 denominations Major, squabbling over the bones. Can they all be right? Come out of her.

 

[FineLinen]

All 33,000 denominations Major, squabbling over the bones. Can they all be right? Come out of her.

Give him a chance Shrewd: it will take the big guy a while to reach all 33 K. with his corrective instruction. lol

Death and the grave were cast into the Lake of Fire, and Rev. 20:l4 distinctly says "this IS the second death."

Let me ask any thinking believer that if Scripture means that these enemies of mankind, "death and the grave" are going to die the second time. You will say no.

Then why be inconsistent enough to insist that it means nothing but a literal death the second time for mankind.

By this Scripture, you may see at once that it is not the number of deaths that Yahweh is indicating but the kind of death or character of the destruction. I notice that writers on this subject who freely give a literal second death to human sinners are silent about "death and the grave" going into the same punishment, although the Bible boldly declares it.

The Second Death, by A. P. Adams

 

[Major1]

All 33,000 denominations Major, squabbling over the bones. Can they all be right? Come out of her.

No they can not. Only those who are based in the truth of God's word......
John 3:16.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[Major1]

Give him a chance Shrewd: it will take the big guy a while to reach all 33 K. with his corrective instruction. lol

Death and the grave were cast into the Lake of Fire, and Rev. 20:l4 distinctly says "this IS the second death."

Let me ask any thinking believer that if Scripture means that these enemies of mankind, "death and the grave" are going to die the second time. You will say no.

Then why be inconsistent enough to insist that it means nothing but a literal death the second time for mankind.

By this Scripture, you may see at once that it is not the number of deaths that Yahweh is indicating but the kind of death or character of the destruction. I notice that writers on this subject who freely give a literal second death to human sinners are silent about "death and the grave" going into the same punishment, although the Bible boldly declares it.

The Second Death, by A. P. Adams

I did not think that I needed to explain everything, but alas, I guess I was wrong. Having said that allow me to say to you my brother that Death in Bible terminology represents the bodies of the dead which had lain in the earth and sea. Then "Hell/Hades/Sheol in Biblical terminolgy is the place of torment for soul and spirit of the unrighteous dead between physical death and the judgment.

They are the final enemies to be destroyed before the eternal state and are vanquished to the Lake of Fire.

Now then as for asking people what they think.

Allow me to say to you and everyone else that what WE thin and what WE want to believe means NOTHIN what so ever!!!!

The only thing that matters is WHAT GOD HAS SAID...........PEROID!

 

[Major1]

Good grief!

Try and focus on the text.

1. I am rich I stand in need of nothing.

2. You are blind.

3. You are naked.

4. You are wretched.

Remedy =

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see."

The message to the 7 churches is to those Christians who think everything is okey-dokey.

"You say, I am rich, and have wealth stored up, and I stand in need of nothing; but you do not know that if there is a wretched creature it is you -- pitiable, poor, blind, naked."

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see."

The initial experience of justification by faith is not the process of being made the righteousness of God in Him.

Again, I have to disagree with you...........Surprise!

The messages to the 7 churches are all different to each church. Each one had different needs and had different problems.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Let me ask any thinking believer that if Scripture means that these enemies of mankind, "death and the grave" are going to die the second time. You will say no.
Then why be inconsistent enough to insist that it means nothing but a literal death the second time for mankind....

But for the fact that "death" is the point in time end of life. It has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. It is not a living thing so it cannot literally die a first time so it cannot die a second time.
Hell is either the grave or the place of eternal punishment. If the grave that is only empty holes. "Empty" cannot be thrown anywhere. "Empty" is not a living thing it did not and cannot die a first time so it can't die a second time.
If "hell" it can conceivably be thrown somewhere. But "hell" is not a living thing it did not and cannot die a first time so it can't die a second time.
There is a scriptural answer that does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative.

Revelation 6:8
8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

I refer to these two guys as the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are living beings, they can be thrown into the LOF and they can die and their power to kill ended..

 

[FineLinen]

"But the fearful and unbelieving shall have their part in the Lake that burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death." -Rev. 21:8

It will be necessary to consider the entire context of this verse, if we desire to understand its message. It opens with the vision of the great white throne, (Rev. 20:14), and we find that after the judgment of that great day, so far from death and hell continuing, they are "cast into the lake of fire" - very unlike the fundamentalist popular view.

Then comes a declaration that God is to dwell with men - not with the saints - but with men, and that as a consequence, they shall be His people, and God shall be with them and be their God.

It is distinctly said, there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor any more pain. Is this not a denial of an endless hell rather than an affirmation of it - most assuredly, an emphatic denial of such a doctrine?

Then comes a voice from the throne with a glorious promise,

"Behold I make all things new," not some things.

Note:

This promise is remarkably emphasized, it opens with the word "Behold," to draw attention to it:

It closes with the command to write it, "for these words are true and faithful."

Was there no reason for this?

Is there not thus attention drawn to this as the central point of the whole vision, i.e., all things made new ?" -Christ Triumphant-

 

[Shrewd Manager]

No they can not. Only those who are based in the truth of God's word......
John 3:16.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Is that scripture supposed to kill non-protestants Major?

You do know that only universalism gives John 3:16 full value? That EVERYONE will come to believe, just as God pledged back in Isa 45:23. It's very simple really. You just don't want to accept it.

 

[Major1]

Is that scripture supposed to kill non-protestants Major?

You do know that only universalism gives John 3:16 full value? That EVERYONE will come to believe, just as God pledged back in Isa 45:23. It's very simple really. You just don't want to accept it.

I am sorry my friend but I do not know what you are saying.

I posted that particular Scripture to show all of you that salvation is by choice and it is for those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour while they are alive to do so.

John 3:16 destroys Universalism !!!!!

Read the Scripture carefully in John 3:16...…...
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

It does not say "EVERYONE will come to believe", now does it brother?????

Did you post that to purposefully distort the Word of God or do you just not know????

That Scripture says...…."THAT WHOSOEVR BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE".

Now allow me to post another very important Scripture ALL of you who are Universalists and who continue to distort the Word of God. NOW I DO NOT SAY THIS, God did in Deut.4:2...……….
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Now to your understanding. So in universalism all the people who die before the age of accountability will have salvation given to them, just as all those who live their life in rejection to the gospel, to the way the truth and life will get a second chance – no one is without. But if we take their opinion unto its end there is no advantage for a believer over an unbeliever. They can be an idolater and a believer who lives their life for Christ suffering to do right and they both receive the same.
That’s YOUR OWN ideaology, but that is NOT the Bibles theology!


It is not distributed to everyone (those who believe and those who do not alike). The Bible does NOT say all will be saved in the end anywhere IN IT!!!!
YOU as an Universalists distort the Scripture to no end to make it seem as if Jesus dying for sin is automatically applied to all and again.....that is changing the Word of God whether YOU admit it or not.

John 14:6:...…
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
This teaching states Jesus is the only way to God, therefore all other religions, belief systems are excluded.


John 5:24.....
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”

John 6:40...…
"And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47 …….
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.”

This is the requirement, there is no scripture that says you don’t have to believe. The Scripture says You must BELIEVE.

Now my personal comment to YOU and finelinnen and Steve is the same one I have said from the beginning.

What you should do, and actually what you must do is to simply say and then teach is that ........
"WE (Those who claim Universal salvation) are Universalists and we do not accept the Word of God as the Word of God. We have our own thoughts on who will be saved in the end and therefor we do not accept what God has said. We in fact have our own RELIGION."

YOU can not in any way claim Universalism as a Christian doctrine when there are NO Scriptures that support Universalism.

You can post and post and post your opinions but they only effect YOU!!!

 

[Major1]

The message to the 7 churches is to those Christians who think everything is okey-dokey.

"You say, I am rich, and have wealth stored up, and I stand in need of nothing; but you do not know that if there is a wretched creature it is you -- pitiable, poor, blind, naked."

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see."

The initial experience of justification by faith is not the process of being made the righteousness of God in Him.

You are once again Biblically incorrect. We are JUSTIFIED the very second we accept Christ as our Saviour!!!! Justification IS NOT A PROCESS!

Romans 4:5. writes, ........
“to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.”

God justifies the ungodly at the moment we come to Christ.

Again, in Romans 5:10......
“While we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son…”

God reconciled men while they were still enemies. Paul emphasizes this reality in his letter to the Ephesians (2:4-5). He writes.....
“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)…” !!!

 

[FineLinen]

You are once again Biblically incorrect. We are JUSTIFIED the very second we accept Christ as our Saviour!!!! Justification IS NOT A PROCESS!

1/2 Correct.

Justification, or being accounted righteous, is a one time happening.

"Being made the righteousess of God in Him", however, is an ongoing work of Theos, NOT a one time experience, but an ongoing process of an active verb.

 

[Major1]

1/2 Correct.

Justification, or being accounted righteous, is a one time happening.

"Being made the righteousess of God in Him", however, is an ongoing work of Theos NOT a one time experience, but an ongoing process of an active verb.

No it is not.

Justification is an instant event.

The begins the "Process" of Sanctification.

If it were the case that salvation was a process, what does that entail? It could entail that we are part of a process, and the end result of that process is justification. But then, I would have to wonder in what sense it could be said that our sins have been forgiven. How can someone say that their sins have been washed away, if they are currently in a process in which their sins were being forgiven?

But that would stand in contrast with the testimony of the Christian, who says that their sins have been remitted (Acts 2:38), wiped away (Acts 3:19), and washed away (Acts 22:16). Hence, it is not consistent with the Christian testimony to say that justification is a process.

But as always, you are free to believe anything you want to believe but foe, me, I am going to stick with the Word of God.