The Lake Of Fire

[nolidad]

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

You cite a verse yet you do not read it! God saves HIS people. Yet to many He will say:

Matthew 7:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 1:10-13 King James Version (KJV)
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

See to His own His love never ceases- but to those not His own- they only see His wrath!

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

And I agree with all those translations!

But yu do not for you wish to redefine aionios to suit your own feelings. Once again show me one verse where one who is not foreknown of God can repent in the Lake of Fire. Don't give me philosophy or Plato or Aristotle, give me the Word of God!

Proverbs 3:5-6 King James Version (KJV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Stop telling me what verses don't say and the teachings of people who knew not God or one who repented of the teaching you quote- show me the Word of God. The Lord spoke often through the Word of people in this life repenting! How come you cannot show one verse of one in the next life repenting? Because there is not one!

 

[FineLinen]

If He who is Love and perfect holiness had not placed the limit on HImself- I would not preach it, but He has so I do!

Perhaps you can direct this little peep to where the UN limited God has placed a limit on Himself?

 

[ClementofA]

And without His capital city (new Jerusalem) are the unrighteous who will never enter in!

Which includes you whenever you were unrighteous, which you certainly have been.

 

[ClementofA]

God does reign. And without His capital city (new Jerusalem) are the unrighteous who will never enter in!

By the same kind of logic you would have us believe that no one will be saved because all have been unrighteous & 1 Cor.6:9 says:

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"

Remember this:

.
● 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neitherfornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
● Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
● Ephesians 5:3-5
(3) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(4) Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
In three different epistles [books] Paul lists many people who do not have any inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Please show a verse, two or more would be better, where Paul says “Oops I made a mistake, all these people will be reconciled even if they were sinful and unrighteous when they died."

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that
qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

It's right in front of your eyes, if you read the next verse after those you quoted:

1 Cor 6:9-11

"Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

"And SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

As a commentator says:

"Wait a minute. If the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God, why does Paul say "and such were some of you?" If they were unrighteous, then how did they inherit the kingdom?"

"They had to be cleansed first, of course. As long as anyone is not cleansed, they have no part inside. But once cleansed, they they entered the kingdom."

So the passages you quoted are perfectly harmonious with universal salvation.


Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

And once again you use the words of a man of God remembering Gods Mercy to His Children and apply them to people who are not the children of God!

The point is God's WRATH was corrective. Compare Jn.3:36. See also Rom.2:5 "day of wrath", not neverending wrath. Ooops!

So now you are also teaching it is possible that one ceases to exist in eternity!

Not at all. How did you dream that up? Misrepresentation alert!

YOu take the words of heretics (Origen) and pagans (Aristotle) over the millions of native greek speakers who have through the ages understood aionios to mean never ending!

Lexicons of ancient Greek tend to do that as well, if you've ever studied them! And Origen was a native Greek scholar. He ought to know what the words of his own culture meant, don't you think.

So one may have eteernal life- or they may have only temporary life in heaven.

Believers get eonian life in the eon to come (Lk.18:30; Mk.10:30) while the unrighteous get punishing (Mt.25:46).

Mt.25:46 contrasts eonian destinies. Believers also become immortal at Christ's return. That speaks of an endless life.

Those who believe in this life get the special(cf. 1 Tim.4:10-11) salvation called "life eonian" (John 10:27-29; Mt.25:46), life in the coming millenial eon. OTOH unbelievers will be cast into "hell" until they also become saved. For God is the Saviour of all, "ESPECIALLY" of those presently believing:

1 Tim.4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers.

 

[ClementofA]

You cite a verse yet you do not read it! God saves HIS people.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ, the OT Israelites who rebelled against God & died in their sins, etc. THAT "His people".

Yet to many He will say:

Matthew 7:22-24 King James Version (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 1:10-13 King James Version (KJV)
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

See to His own His love never ceases- but to those not His own- they only see His wrath!

A mere "day" of wrath (Rom.2:5).

 

[nolidad]

Perhaps you can direct this little peep to where the UN limited God has placed a limit on Himself?

I have multiple times already. If you really are interested, they are posted many times here on this thread!

YOu and Cof A and ST.S have yet to show one verse that shows there is repentance in the afterlife! I can point ot many many verses showing th eneed to repent in theis life, but none in the afterlife. YOu make arguments from silence or passages that talk of Gods amazing love while rejecting His wrath on the unbeliever!

Then abandon the greek speaking worlds use of aionios to mean eternal. NOt much else can be done to remove the beam from your eye.

But I do thank you that you paid attention to the motes in mine!@

Once again all of my flesh wants to believe your false doctrine! It would be great to know that in the long run, it just doesn't matter, because everyone is gonna make it! If not in this life then after they get toasted for awhile, you and your acolytes all say they some time will come to their senses and repent and God will pull them out of the lake of fire, clean the soot and smoke and welcome them in heaven. But I have studied the Bible too much to accept that wonderful sounding concept as truth!

 

[FineLinen]

I have multiple times already. If you really are interested, they are posted many times here on this thread!

YOu and Cof A and ST.S have yet to show one verse that shows there is repentance in the afterlife! I can point ot many many verses showing th eneed to repent in theis life, but none in the afterlife. YOu make arguments from silence or passages that talk of Gods amazing love while rejecting His wrath on the unbeliever!

Good grief! I must have missed once of the "multiple times" you have posted the verses that speak of the Un (limited) God of Glory. Perhaps my eyes are growing dim from being on Christian threads too much lol.

The fact is this: there is one verse in Canon that speaks of "limited", and I want to declare this as loud as possible, it has nothing to do with His scope of UN, only ours!

YOU HAVE LIMITED THE GOD OF ISRAEL ! ! !

 

[nolidad]

Good grief! I must have missed once of the "multiple times" you have posted the verses that speak of the Un (limited) God of Glory. Perhaps my eyes are growing dim from being on Christian threads too much lol.

The fact is this: there is one verse in Canon that speaks of "limited", and I want to declare this as loud as possible, it has nothing to do with His scope of UN, only ours!

YOU HAVE LIMITED THE GOD OF ISRAEL ! ! !

Well when we stand bwefore the Throne of the King of Kngs- I will allow HIm to judge between me and thee! I cannot wish you well in this doctrine, you are in disobedience to the God of Israel and the Church!

 

[FineLinen]

Well when we stand bwefore the Throne of the King of Kngs- I will allow HIm...

Well thank you for allowing the God of Glory to allow me to stand before Him. I will be satisfied to take any position before Him in adoration!

Every created thing (pan ktisma).

Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4 ; James 1:18 ), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh added). No created thing is left out.

This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisi) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption.

If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off. Saying (legonta). Masculine (construction according to sense, personifying the created things) if genuine, though some MSS. have legonta (grammatical gender agreeing with panta) present active participle of legw, to say. And to the Lamb (kai twi arniwi). Dative case.

Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne.

Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Romans 4:11 and the addition of to krato (active power) in place of iscu (reserve of strength) in Romans 5:12 . -A.T. Robertson Word Pictures-

 

[nolidad]

Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne.

Yes we shall. And because He made me his own I am eternally grateful to HIm!

I am one who knows the depths of sin! My testimony is not fit to be printed on any public forum before the Lord called me!

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have multiple times already. If you really are interested, they are posted many times here on this thread!

YOu and Cof A and ST.S have yet to show one verse that shows there is repentance in the afterlife! I can point ot many many verses showing th eneed to repent in theis life, but none in the afterlife. YOu make arguments from silence or passages that talk of Gods amazing love while rejecting His wrath on the unbeliever!

Then abandon the greek speaking worlds use of aionios to mean eternal. NOt much else can be done to remove the beam from your eye.

But I do thank you that you paid attention to the motes in mine!@

Once again all of my flesh wants to believe your false doctrine! It would be great to know that in the long run, it just doesn't matter, because everyone is gonna make it! If not in this life then after they get toasted for awhile, you and your acolytes all say they some time will come to their senses and repent and God will pull them out of the lake of fire, clean the soot and smoke and welcome them in heaven. But I have studied the Bible too much to accept that wonderful sounding concept as truth!

As someone has said, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."

 

[ClementofA]

As someone has said, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."


*****************************************


"Put together all the tenderest love you know of, multiply it by infinity, and you will begin to see glimpses of the love and grace of God." -Hannah Whitall Smith-

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

 

[bbbbbbb]

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."


*****************************************


"Put together all the tenderest love you know of, multiply it by infinity, and you will begin to see glimpses of the love and grace of God." -Hannah Whitall Smith-

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

[ClementofA]

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb to/into the eons of the eons.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Psalm 94:1O Lord, God of vengeance,
God of vengeance, shine forth!
2 Rise up, O Judge of the earth,
Render recompense to the proud.
3 How long shall the wicked, O Lord,
How long shall the wicked exult?
4 They pour forth words, they speak arrogantly;
All who do wickedness vaunt themselves.
5 They crush Your people, O Lord,
And afflict Your heritage.
6 They slay the widow and the stranger
And murder the orphans.
7 They have said, “The Lord does not see,
Nor does the God of Jacob pay heed.”

8 Pay heed, you senseless among the people;
And when will you understand, stupid ones?
9 He who planted the ear, does He not hear?
He who formed the eye, does He not see?
10 He who chastens the nations, will He not rebuke,
Even He who teaches man knowledge?
11 The Lord knows the thoughts of man,
That they are a mere breath.

12 Blessed is the man whom You chasten, O Lord,
And whom You teach out of Your law;
13 That You may grant him relief from the days of adversity,
Until a pit is dug for the wicked.
14 For the Lord will not abandon His people,
Nor will He forsake His inheritance.
15 For judgment will again be righteous,
And all the upright in heart will follow it.
16 Who will stand up for me against evildoers?
Who will take his stand for me against those who do wickedness?

17 If the Lord had not been my help,
My soul would soon have dwelt in the abode of silence.
18 If I should say, “My foot has slipped,”
Your lovingkindness, O Lord, will hold me up.
19 When my anxious thoughts multiply within me,
Your consolations delight my soul.
20 Can a throne of destruction be allied with You,
One which devises mischief by decree?
21 They band themselves together against the life of the righteous
And condemn the innocent to death.
22 But the Lord has been my stronghold,
And my God the rock of my refuge.
23 He has brought back their wickedness upon them
And will destroy them in their evil;
The Lord our God will destroy them.

 

[nolidad]

As someone has said, "If it sounds too good to be true, it is."

Absolutelyi.

I just let teh Bible speak for itself and then form my opinions from that. Eternal torment for the lost is a sad but absolute reality based on a normal reading of SCripture.

 

[nolidad]

Which includes you whenever you were unrighteous, which you certainly have been.

But I have been declared righteous now because of Jesus, so I have my golden ticket!

A mere "day" of wrath (Rom.2:5).

Your lack of biblical understanding is blinding!

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ, the OT Israelites who rebelled against God & died in their sins, etc. THAT "His people".

Yes with the further caveat Jesus added! They must trust in Him and His death and physical resurrection. Yes so even a pharisee could get saved. and no Judas could not because He had gave himself wholly to Satan! Why do you major in the minors you know are not true!

But you believe the phaoirisees and Judas will be saved so why even bring them up?

Lexicons of ancient Greek tend to do that as well, if you've ever studied them! And Origen was a native Greek scholar. He ought to know what the words of his own culture meant, don't you think.

Have several on my shelves as well as several bookmareked on my PC.

And there are far more native speakers other than Origen who say aionios is eternal or neverending! Origen repented of this heretical view He espoused for a time. YOu really should study more of Origen to see th emany ideas he recanted of. Like Jesus was a made creature, and became God the Son, and many others.

The point is God's WRATH was corrective. Compare Jn.3:36. See also Rom.2:5 "day of wrath", not neverending wrath. Ooops!

Wrong again. YOu have failed to prove that and then double your error by saying kolasis is milder than timera. Torment, torture and agony are three different words but all describe a similar event. Same with Kolasis and timera. It is aionios that matters. It is not a qualitative word but a quantitative word but you should know that!

Nothing in John 3:36 speaks of Gods wrath being corrective!

Paideia is th eword that punishment (disciplining or chastising) is corrective in nature. Kolasis MAY have a connotation of corrective or purgative, but only in unique instances and construct. Unfortunately for you that does not appear in Scripture

Not one of 32 English bibles translates aionios kolasis as ages long correction.

Still waiting for you to win the argument by showing one verse that says in the lake of fire one can repent and be saved!

 

[nolidad]

Those who believe in this life get the special(cf. 1 Tim.4:10-11) salvation called "life eonian" (John 10:27-29; Mt.25:46), life in the coming millenial eon. OTOH unbelievers will be cast into "hell" until they also become saved. For God is the Saviour of all, "ESPECIALLY" of those presently believing:

1 Tim.4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, 11 especially of believers.

Well that would be wrong as well! Specially here is an adverb which modifies a verb and means uniquely of specifically.

Jesus is the Savior of the World. But that doesn't mean He saves the world! It means there is no other Savior one can turn to! All other gods, means, methods and ways of thinking one could get saved have been destroyed by jesus and His death and REsurrection from the dead!

Jesus limited those who actually get saved to those who believe and trust!

Still waiting for the verse that causes you to win that says the lost in the lake of fire can repent and get saved!

 

[FineLinen]

Jesus is the Savior of the World. But that doesn't mean He saves the world!

Jesus Christ is a glorious Saviour,

HOWEVER

He is only a potential Saviour lol?

Dear drowning sinners of Adam please hold your breath and go glub, glug, glub.