The Knowledge of God

[1213]

...Genesis is found in chapter 18 where the God appeared in the form of three men and had lunch with Abraham and then informed him of their agenda and purpose in this visitation. "20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."...

..."O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me...

...Prior to Abraham's obedience in relation to this horrible requirement and sacrifice, God was unsure of the level of His trust and faith in Him and obedience to Him. This test set all questions in that area to rest for God. This test proved that Abraham was completely committed to God and to obedience to Him above all else...

I don’t think those show that God doesn’t know all. For example in the Abraham case, God had announced previously that from Isaac will come great nation (or something like that). Testing and asking seems to be more for people than for God.

 

[martymonster]

You purposely choose to misunderstand it twisting the words to convey what the author didn’t say. There is such a thing as an “evil day” and no one thinks this means a day is making morally bad choices.

You are confusing evil with sin. Sin is about making morally bad choices.

 

[martymonster]

Are you referring to Isaiah 46:7? The King James and other, older versions translate the Hebrew word as "evil". It can equally be translated "adversity" or "calamity" as in more modern translations.

For sure God brings calamity on people. He does so rarely.

I wonder how many people wish that God had stopped Hitler before he declared war? God is merciful and gracious, loving and kind. He withholds His righteous judgements for now. God needs to do little to bring adversity on the world. We are well able to bring it on ourselves.
James 1:13
"When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone."

H7451
רָעָה רַע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
Total KJV occurrences: 664

Calamity and evil is same Hebrew word for a reason. They are not something completely different. Also, God being responsible for evil being in the world, does not rest on that one verse. Here are some more of God's words, for you to not believe.

Gen_2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Exo 11:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.
Exo 11:10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Gen 50:21 Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them.

Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

1Ki 22:18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 2:4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

There are literally scores of verses in scripture that show that God uses evil. He created evil for his own purposes, and he doesn't need you to defend him from who he is or what he says he is doing. Evil is not forever, it is only temporary, until he has finished his work.

Psa 30:5 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

 

[Blade]

Not exactly what you were talking about but "The Knowledge of God" and His word. Just reminded me of once I was praying about this elderly man in a home. Told the lord since He gave me the burden for him I had a right to know why he was not being healed. Out of no where.. I did expect any thing lol.. He asked me "remember when Daniel prayed?". First right there. I don't know how to explain it.. the words just like exploded. .. so much was said in just those four words He asked me. So the rest is I lol asked ok if this is really you where is that written. See I knew the story.. He said "Daniel 10 9-12".

I looked.. shocking that was it! One of many great things.. well at that time I had never read the OT. No clue where that story was. Just what you talked about reminded me of this. His word.. why we can read it and read it.. and it never gets old.. always new. WOW..thanks for this

 

[James A]

Here's the problem with that reasoning James, and I'll address your concluding statement first as most significant. IF God "transcends" time and space, then you are saying that He is infinite and "transcendent" in His very Being - infinite in every way. Unfortunately for God (and you), this makes it impossible for Him to have any kind of genuine personal relationship with you or anyone else. God's attempt to reveal Himself to man accurately in His written Word was a massive failure, according to the reasoning you have presented in your statements above. The "anthropomorphism" argument is a worn-out falsehood holding to the idea that God is so utterly, fundamentally incomprehensible to man that He had to "dumb down" His own Person and Nature and attributes in order to present Himself in some sort of partially comprehensible and relatable form to man. God's usage of human limitation terminology is not necessarily an accurate representation of Himself, He is just playing "make believe" in order to create some kind of fantasy relationship between Himself and man. The "anthropomorphism" argument disparages God and His Word James, so it is a lie. I reject it utterly and unreservedly. I will no longer acknowledge it if anyone introduces it into a discussion like this. It is beneath every Christian to even give it a moment's consideration. It is blasphemy.

IF God "transcends" time and space, then you are saying that He is infinite and "transcendent" in His very Being - infinite in every way

There is no "IF" here, dear believer. Bible states it in unambiguous terms that God transcends space and time and thus is infinite. Please see the following

1) God created time (in the beginning), space (heaven) and matter (earth). (Gen 1:1)
2) God the creator is timeless, spaceless and have no matter or form (The cause transcends its effect).

3) Thus, God is infinite in space and time.

4) He is omniscient because He is not constrained by space or time.

Unfortunately for God (and you), this makes it impossible for Him to have any kind of genuine personal relationship with you or anyone else.

Based on earthly models, yes, this is a true statement however, I would keep it in mind that there is no human explanation for the Incarnation or Baptism where the believer become one body with Christ, either.

God is infinite and the mechanics of Him interacting with human world is a mystery.

The "anthropomorphism" argument is a worn-out falsehood

Are you saying that God did not know Adam and Eve ate the fruit (Gen 3:11) ? Or He is truly jealous of us worshipping other gods? Did the faith of the follower actually "surprised" Jesus (Lk 7:9) or that He did not know where the body of Lazarus was buried?

Lord instituted animal sacrifice not as blood justice but for us, humans, to fathom the gravity of our sin. He said "your beloved son", "whom you love" to Abraham ( Gen 22:2 ) making it very clear that he cares about human feelings.

Yes, He does use human terms (anthropomorphism) to educate us ( "as long as live" is another example)

 

[James A]

Thank you.
You are a making a very important point here: for believers, it seems to be enough to think God has all-time all-embracing knowledge of everything.
But there are two problems with this line of reasoning:
no verse can be found to substanciate such a reasoning:
here, Christianity goes beyond what is actually stated in the Bible, I think, setting a (bad) example of man purportedly being entitled to add to God's word when they should not!
If Bible does not claim omniscience, neither should man!
He certainly has the power to know everything, that's beyond doubt.
The second problem being... the moment you discuss with atheists and or doubters... the assumend omniscience of God always backfires, I think.
90% of all Christians don't seem to discuss with them anyways... but those who do have to pay the price for their doctrine it seems.

Also, who would like the idea of an always-helicopter-parenting God?
God always having to go through all the information there is... seems like a burden for him. This is at least what I sometimes think.

The problem that I see with the doctrine of God's potential non-omniscience is this: once people buy it... they can't wait to ask themselves what it is God knows and what he doesn't. Which is futile, I think.
I've made this experience once.

If Bible does not claim omniscience, neither should man!

Bible states it in unambiguous terms that God transcends space and time and thus is infinite. Please see the following

1) God created time (in the beginning), space (heaven) and matter (earth). (Gen 1:1)
2) God the creator is timeless, spaceless and have no matter or form ( The cause transcends its effect).
3) Thus, God is infinite in space and time,
4) He is omniscient because He is not constrained by space or time.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

1) God created time (in the beginning), space (heaven) and matter (earth). (Gen 1:1)
2) God the creator is timeless, spaceless and have no matter or form (The cause transcends its effect).

3) Thus, God is infinite in space and time.

4) He is omniscient because He is not constrained by space or time.

Unfortunately for God (and you), this makes it impossible for Him to have any kind of genuine personal relationship with you or anyone else.

Based on earthly models, yes, this is a true statement however, I would keep it in mind that there is no human explanation for the Incarnation or Baptism where the believer become one body with Christ, either.

God is infinite and the mechanics of Him interacting with human world is a mystery.

Why is it difficult to see how God can have relationship with man? 1. We are made in his image and 2. A greater can still have relationship with a lesser. Most cat and dog owners feel they a kind of relationship with their pet and we are less alike as beings. So I don’t see a mystery there.

Yes, He does use human terms (anthropomorphism) to educate us ( "as long as live" is another example)

What other terms should He use?

 

[James A]

Why is it difficult to see how God can have relationship with man? 1. We are made in his image and 2. A greater can still have relationship with a lesser. Most cat and dog owners feel they a kind of relationship with their pet and we are less alike as beings. So I don’t see a mystery there.


What other terms should He use?

I never denied God's relationship to the world. In my previous post, the statements in italics/courier new was something I was replying to.

 

[James A]

There is no (past or) future in the eternal world where God exists so, if He does not know something at this point, He will never know it and that is a problem.

 

[Bobber]

One of the greatest misunderstandings among Christians today is the scope and breadth of God's so-called "omniscience" (a word not found in the Scriptures).

Do you really think it matter is a word is found in scripture? Neither is Trinity but I believe it can be demonstrated Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

When you couple that belief with the idea that God's "omnipotence" and origination of everything as the great Creator makes Him culpable and personally responsible for all of the evil and suffering in our world - it's very difficult to resolve these ideas with the representation of God in the Scriptures as a God of holiness and love.

Hold it now friend....you've just said it makes him responsible for evil. Because you've embraced such an opinion does that mean God has? Or many, many, many of his children and the angels of God?

 

[thomas_t]

Bible states it in unambiguous terms that God transcends space and time and thus is infinite.

please James, this is not the same as omniscience.
Of course he transcends space and time. And of course he has the ability to know all at any time.
But no verse in the Bible announces that he chooses to adopt omniscience!
If he does not know about something today, he is able to know tomorrow. He's able to do anything.
However, omnipotence also includes the ability to self-restrict own knowledge, I think. He might as well use this power.
I stay with my opinion: man shouldn't proclaim a theology that cannot be found in the Bible.

 

[Dave L]

One of the greatest misunderstandings among Christians today is the scope and breadth of God's so-called "omniscience" (a word not found in the Scriptures). As one of His attributes, one would think that Christian theologians have thoroughly studied the Word of God and analyzed to death every text relevant to this aspect of God's Being and Mind. Surely there can be no mistake. Surely God has full knowledge of all that has ever existed and will exist in the future from eternity past, before He created everything. This is the generally held view among Christians. When you couple that belief with the idea that God's "omnipotence" and origination of everything as the great Creator makes Him culpable and personally responsible for all of the evil and suffering in our world - it's very difficult to resolve these ideas with the representation of God in the Scriptures as a God of holiness and love.

The biggest problem in all of this is that the Scriptures do not, in fact, reveal God's knowledge as being infinite according to the "omniscience" concept at all. Quite the opposite in fact. From Genesis to Revelation, God indicates (and states outright) that He does NOT "know everything about everyone". That's a very difficult reality check for Christians and a bitter pill to swallow considering the teachings received in most "churches" from cradle to grave.

I'll just touch on a few texts and point out some things most Christians miss completely when reading God's Word. One of the most glaring examples of God's knowledge limitations in Genesis is found in chapter 18 where the God appeared in the form of three men and had lunch with Abraham and then informed him of their agenda and purpose in this visitation. "20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." Note that God did NOT "foreknow" the nature and extent of the wickedness in these cities. The "cry of it" came to him via angelic surveillance reports most likely. God went down to the cities personally to investigate and inspect them to see whether or not the reports were accurate. He was not about to destroy them based on second-hand information. This is a fascinating glimpse into God's knowledge limitations. In fact, He reveals the timeline of His acquisition of knowledge even more specifically and clearly in Psalm 139, "O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." Note that David indicates comprehensive knowledge of him as a person by God based on "searching" him - a process of investigation. This would definitely not be necessary if God has full knowledge of everyone and everything that would ever exist from eternity past. Later in the chapter David writes (under the Holy Spirit's guidance and inspiration), "23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." God would NOT have to "search" him out to determine the thoughts and intents of his heart if He had "omniscient" knowledge of David from eternity past. Obviously, this latter scenario is NOT the true nature of God's knowledge. God's knowledge is actively growing and developing continuously as people and circumstances change. It is dynamic and He is involved in discovery WITH His people.

Back in Genesis, this "searching" process is confirmed in the proposed sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham on an altar. His hand was withheld from killing his own son at the last moment in these terms, "11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Prior to Abraham's obedience in relation to this horrible requirement and sacrifice, God was unsure of the level of His trust and faith in Him and obedience to Him. This test set all questions in that area to rest for God. This test proved that Abraham was completely committed to God and to obedience to Him above all else. God's knowledge expanded and updated according to these new facts and revealed realities.

There is much much more in God's Word on this subject and in every case, God repeatedly confirms that He does NOT have full, comprehensive knowledge of each and every individual on this planet at any given point in history. He goes out of His way to carefully investigate His personal friends and People and gain very thorough knowledge of that very select group. Beyond that, He has general knowledge of what is going on among the rest of humanity and how that may affect His People, but He does not have infinite knowledge of all details. His all-encompassing knowledge is limited to the functions and details involved with sustaining and maintaining this reality and physical realm.

I trust these insights will be helpful to many seekers after Truth here.

You cannot have faith in an unstable ignorant god as you preach.

 

[Yesha]

This sounds very much like open theism.

 

[James A]

please James, this is not the same as omniscience.
Of course he transcends space and time. And of course he has the ability to know all at any time.
But no verse in the Bible announces that he chooses to adopt omniscience!
If he does not know about something today, he is able to know tomorrow. He's able to do anything.
However, omnipotence also includes the ability to self-restrict own knowledge, I think. He might as well use this power.
I stay with my opinion: man shouldn't proclaim a theology that cannot be found in the Bible.

Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite. Psalm 147:5

In whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. 1 John 3:20

And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. Heb 4:13

Would not God find this out?
For He knows the secrets of the heart. Psalm 44:21

And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen Acts 1:24

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I never denied God's relationship to the world. In my previous post, the statements in italics/courier new was something I was replying to.

Well actually it’s God’s relationship to individuals but I’m glad that ability is not a mystery.

 

[James A]

Well actually it’s God’s relationship to individuals but I’m glad that ability is not a mystery.

Let me clarify the original post - our mind will never be able to explain "how" the infinite God involves Himself in the finite, human world so, let us leave the "how" part as mystery in the same way we call Incarnation, Baptism, Eucharist etc. mysteries. Lord's ability is not a mystery.

 

[thomas_t]

And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. Heb 4:13

If something is laid bare to your looks, it doesn't mean that you take the advantage and really look at it. When you see a naked woman somewhere, would you really look?
Just an example to show that the possibility to know does not equal knowledge itself.

James, I stay with my opinion. There is not one verse showing that God is indeed omniscient.

Great is our Lord and abundant in strength;
His understanding is infinite. Psalm 147:5

understanding is mentioned here as opposed to knowledge.

Concerning 1 John 3:20... it's the version really. It starts with an if-clause. So it can't count as proof for God's all-time omniscience. If the condition laid out by the first clause doesn't apply, we know nothing about what happens then.

Your other verses show God's knowledge in particular fields or areas. You can't generalize it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Let me clarify the original post - our mind will never be able to explain "how" the infinite God involves Himself in the finite, human world so, let us leave the "how" part as mystery in the same way we call Incarnation, Baptism, Eucharist etc. mysteries. Lord's ability is not a mystery.

Why would someone bother about something God doesn’t even ask one to concern themselves with? Do you know the voice of God to you? (Don’t mean you personally) Can you discern what is wrong in the thinking of others as the apostles could? If a man relies on rules instead of the Holy Spirit on matters God asks him to learn, how can that man begin to consider matters God doesn’t even suggest He’ll teach him?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You are confusing evil with sin. Sin is about making morally bad choices.

So is evil.

 

[James A]

Why would someone bother about something God doesn’t even ask one to concern themselves with? Do you know the voice of God to you? (Don’t mean you personally) Can you discern what is wrong in the thinking of others as the apostles could? If a man relies on rules instead of the Holy Spirit on matters God asks him to learn, how can that man begin to consider matters God doesn’t even suggest He’ll teach him?

Theologians from the time of Apostles have studied the attributes of God such as eternity, omnipotence, omniscience, foreknowledge, predestination etc. It is on the knowledge that the liturgy of New Testament church is built on.

For example, there are people who argue the elaborate study of the doctrine of Trinity is unnecessary but I doubt most church denominations will agree.