The Knowledge of God

[LightandTruth]

One of the greatest misunderstandings among Christians today is the scope and breadth of God's so-called "omniscience" (a word not found in the Scriptures). As one of His attributes, one would think that Christian theologians have thoroughly studied the Word of God and analyzed to death every text relevant to this aspect of God's Being and Mind. Surely there can be no mistake. Surely God has full knowledge of all that has ever existed and will exist in the future from eternity past, before He created everything. This is the generally held view among Christians. When you couple that belief with the idea that God's "omnipotence" and origination of everything as the great Creator makes Him culpable and personally responsible for all of the evil and suffering in our world - it's very difficult to resolve these ideas with the representation of God in the Scriptures as a God of holiness and love.

The biggest problem in all of this is that the Scriptures do not, in fact, reveal God's knowledge as being infinite according to the "omniscience" concept at all. Quite the opposite in fact. From Genesis to Revelation, God indicates (and states outright) that He does NOT "know everything about everyone". That's a very difficult reality check for Christians and a bitter pill to swallow considering the teachings received in most "churches" from cradle to grave.

I'll just touch on a few texts and point out some things most Christians miss completely when reading God's Word. One of the most glaring examples of God's knowledge limitations in Genesis is found in chapter 18 where the God appeared in the form of three men and had lunch with Abraham and then informed him of their agenda and purpose in this visitation. "20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." Note that God did NOT "foreknow" the nature and extent of the wickedness in these cities. The "cry of it" came to him via angelic surveillance reports most likely. God went down to the cities personally to investigate and inspect them to see whether or not the reports were accurate. He was not about to destroy them based on second-hand information. This is a fascinating glimpse into God's knowledge limitations. In fact, He reveals the timeline of His acquisition of knowledge even more specifically and clearly in Psalm 139, "O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." Note that David indicates comprehensive knowledge of him as a person by God based on "searching" him - a process of investigation. This would definitely not be necessary if God has full knowledge of everyone and everything that would ever exist from eternity past. Later in the chapter David writes (under the Holy Spirit's guidance and inspiration), "23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." God would NOT have to "search" him out to determine the thoughts and intents of his heart if He had "omniscient" knowledge of David from eternity past. Obviously, this latter scenario is NOT the true nature of God's knowledge. God's knowledge is actively growing and developing continuously as people and circumstances change. It is dynamic and He is involved in discovery WITH His people.

Back in Genesis, this "searching" process is confirmed in the proposed sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham on an altar. His hand was withheld from killing his own son at the last moment in these terms, "11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Prior to Abraham's obedience in relation to this horrible requirement and sacrifice, God was unsure of the level of His trust and faith in Him and obedience to Him. This test set all questions in that area to rest for God. This test proved that Abraham was completely committed to God and to obedience to Him above all else. God's knowledge expanded and updated according to these new facts and revealed realities.

There is much much more in God's Word on this subject and in every case, God repeatedly confirms that He does NOT have full, comprehensive knowledge of each and every individual on this planet at any given point in history. He goes out of His way to carefully investigate His personal friends and People and gain very thorough knowledge of that very select group. Beyond that, He has general knowledge of what is going on among the rest of humanity and how that may affect His People, but He does not have infinite knowledge of all details. His all-encompassing knowledge is limited to the functions and details involved with sustaining and maintaining this reality and physical realm.

I trust these insights will be helpful to many seekers after Truth here.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

One of the greatest misunderstandings among Christians today is the scope and breadth of God's so-called "omniscience" (a word not found in the Scriptures). As one of His attributes, one would think that Christian theologians have thoroughly studied the Word of God and analyzed to death every text relevant to this aspect of God's Being and Mind. Surely there can be no mistake. Surely God has full knowledge of all that has ever existed and will exist in the future from eternity past, before He created everything. This is the generally held view among Christians. When you couple that belief with the idea that God's "omnipotence" and origination of everything as the great Creator makes Him culpable and personally responsible for all of the evil and suffering in our world - it's very difficult to resolve these ideas with the representation of God in the Scriptures as a God of holiness and love.

The biggest problem in all of this is that the Scriptures do not, in fact, reveal God's knowledge as being infinite according to the "omniscience" concept at all. Quite the opposite in fact. From Genesis to Revelation, God indicates (and states outright) that He does NOT "know everything about everyone". That's a very difficult reality check for Christians and a bitter pill to swallow considering the teachings received in most "churches" from cradle to grave.

I'll just touch on a few texts and point out some things most Christians miss completely when reading God's Word. One of the most glaring examples of God's knowledge limitations in Genesis is found in chapter 18 where the God appeared in the form of three men and had lunch with Abraham and then informed him of their agenda and purpose in this visitation. "20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." Note that God did NOT "foreknow" the nature and extent of the wickedness in these cities. The "cry of it" came to him via angelic surveillance reports most likely. God went down to the cities personally to investigate and inspect them to see whether or not the reports were accurate. He was not about to destroy them based on second-hand information. This is a fascinating glimpse into God's knowledge limitations. In fact, He reveals the timeline of His acquisition of knowledge even more specifically and clearly in Psalm 139, "O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." Note that David indicates comprehensive knowledge of him as a person by God based on "searching" him - a process of investigation. This would definitely not be necessary if God has full knowledge of everyone and everything that would ever exist from eternity past. Later in the chapter David writes (under the Holy Spirit's guidance and inspiration), "23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." God would NOT have to "search" him out to determine the thoughts and intents of his heart if He had "omniscient" knowledge of David from eternity past. Obviously, this latter scenario is NOT the true nature of God's knowledge. God's knowledge is actively growing and developing continuously as people and circumstances change. It is dynamic and He is involved in discovery WITH His people.

Back in Genesis, this "searching" process is confirmed in the proposed sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham on an altar. His hand was withheld from killing his own son at the last moment in these terms, "11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Prior to Abraham's obedience in relation to this horrible requirement and sacrifice, God was unsure of the level of His trust and faith in Him and obedience to Him. This test set all questions in that area to rest for God. This test proved that Abraham was completely committed to God and to obedience to Him above all else. God's knowledge expanded and updated according to these new facts and revealed realities.

There is much much more in God's Word on this subject and in every case, God repeatedly confirms that He does NOT have full, comprehensive knowledge of each and every individual on this planet at any given point in history. He goes out of His way to carefully investigate His personal friends and People and gain very thorough knowledge of that very select group. Beyond that, He has general knowledge of what is going on among the rest of humanity and how that may affect His People, but He does not have infinite knowledge of all details. His all-encompassing knowledge is limited to the functions and details involved with sustaining and maintaining this reality and physical realm.

I trust these insights will be helpful to many seekers after Truth here.

There is strong suggestion that the angels of Gabriel are responsible for bringing information to God. They are the "eyes" that patrol the earth for God. Proverbs 15:3, Zechariah 4:10

 

[redleghunter]

One of the greatest misunderstandings among Christians today is the scope and breadth of God's so-called "omniscience" (a word not found in the Scriptures). As one of His attributes, one would think that Christian theologians have thoroughly studied the Word of God and analyzed to death every text relevant to this aspect of God's Being and Mind. Surely there can be no mistake. Surely God has full knowledge of all that has ever existed and will exist in the future from eternity past, before He created everything. This is the generally held view among Christians. When you couple that belief with the idea that God's "omnipotence" and origination of everything as the great Creator makes Him culpable and personally responsible for all of the evil and suffering in our world - it's very difficult to resolve these ideas with the representation of God in the Scriptures as a God of holiness and love.

The biggest problem in all of this is that the Scriptures do not, in fact, reveal God's knowledge as being infinite according to the "omniscience" concept at all. Quite the opposite in fact. From Genesis to Revelation, God indicates (and states outright) that He does NOT "know everything about everyone". That's a very difficult reality check for Christians and a bitter pill to swallow considering the teachings received in most "churches" from cradle to grave.

I'll just touch on a few texts and point out some things most Christians miss completely when reading God's Word. One of the most glaring examples of God's knowledge limitations in Genesis is found in chapter 18 where the God appeared in the form of three men and had lunch with Abraham and then informed him of their agenda and purpose in this visitation. "20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." Note that God did NOT "foreknow" the nature and extent of the wickedness in these cities. The "cry of it" came to him via angelic surveillance reports most likely. God went down to the cities personally to investigate and inspect them to see whether or not the reports were accurate. He was not about to destroy them based on second-hand information. This is a fascinating glimpse into God's knowledge limitations. In fact, He reveals the timeline of His acquisition of knowledge even more specifically and clearly in Psalm 139, "O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." Note that David indicates comprehensive knowledge of him as a person by God based on "searching" him - a process of investigation. This would definitely not be necessary if God has full knowledge of everyone and everything that would ever exist from eternity past. Later in the chapter David writes (under the Holy Spirit's guidance and inspiration), "23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." God would NOT have to "search" him out to determine the thoughts and intents of his heart if He had "omniscient" knowledge of David from eternity past. Obviously, this latter scenario is NOT the true nature of God's knowledge. God's knowledge is actively growing and developing continuously as people and circumstances change. It is dynamic and He is involved in discovery WITH His people.

Back in Genesis, this "searching" process is confirmed in the proposed sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham on an altar. His hand was withheld from killing his own son at the last moment in these terms, "11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Prior to Abraham's obedience in relation to this horrible requirement and sacrifice, God was unsure of the level of His trust and faith in Him and obedience to Him. This test set all questions in that area to rest for God. This test proved that Abraham was completely committed to God and to obedience to Him above all else. God's knowledge expanded and updated according to these new facts and revealed realities.

There is much much more in God's Word on this subject and in every case, God repeatedly confirms that He does NOT have full, comprehensive knowledge of each and every individual on this planet at any given point in history. He goes out of His way to carefully investigate His personal friends and People and gain very thorough knowledge of that very select group. Beyond that, He has general knowledge of what is going on among the rest of humanity and how that may affect His People, but He does not have infinite knowledge of all details. His all-encompassing knowledge is limited to the functions and details involved with sustaining and maintaining this reality and physical realm.

I trust these insights will be helpful to many seekers after Truth here.

God does not have full knowledge of His own Creation?

 

[LightandTruth]

God does not have full knowledge of His own Creation?

That's not exactly what I said. I said He does not have full knowledge of each individual in humanity, but He DOES have comprehensive, complete knowledge of the mechanics of this physical planet and its ecosystems etc. according to His original design and ongoing maintenance thereof.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

From Genesis to Revelation, God indicates (and states outright) that He does NOT "know everything about everyone".

You have no idea how much wrong is with this sentence alone. First of all, God created everything, even the beginning. God does not depend on time, He created time. Everything for God is present including our past and future. How? Think about when you are writing a story, a child's book for example for your kid, you know the beginning, the middle, and the end. It is all present for you although the story has a beginning, then it can have the middle and then the end. God knows everything yes. He knew we were gona sin even before He created us so why does He then punishes us? Because it was our choice to sin, just because God knows our choice doesn't make us less guilty. If you give your child 2 options one good and one bad and you know he is gona make the wrong choice, does that make him innocent? No. God is not a human not to know. God is aware of everything because he created everything, there was nothing before the beginning just God (trinity).

Back in Genesis, this "searching" process is confirmed in the proposed sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham on an altar. His hand was withheld from killing his own son at the last moment in these terms, "11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Now this part. It is not enough to read the bible but we must understand it. We can read the bible in such mechanical manner, that we derive no benefit from doing so. I can be reading it's words and yet I can be drawing conclusion which is quite false. The commonest cause of all of this is our tendency to approach the bible with a theory and then everything is controlled by this theory (I'm not saying that's what you do). The bible is our only authority. You sure you didn't approach the bible with your own theory? Did you look into the bible looking for this specific topic, to disprove God knows everything? Because then that's all you will find.

Now to your question of this verse: God knew before Abraham obeyed that he would obey God by demonstrating willingness to sacrifice his only son Isaac. The Hebrew word for know in this verse is “yada,” and means to ascertain by seeing. To ascertain is to find something out for certain. God’s previous knowledge of what Abraham would do was confirmed by observing Abraham’s obedience. When God said, “I know that thou fearest God,” it did not mean that God did not know previously what Abraham would do. God knew beforehand that Abraham would be obedient, but He said “now I know” since He had now observed the obedience that He already knew would happen.

 

[LightandTruth]

There is strong suggestion that the angels of Gabriel are responsible for bringing information to God. They are the "eyes" that patrol the earth for God. Proverbs 15:3, Zechariah 4:10

Yes, there is clear evidence of angelic surveillance being the source of God's knowledge where humanity is concerned in Job also. Job chapter 1 states, "6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord." I believe that the clear indications in the context of this chapter are that the phrase "the sons of God" refers to the angels, and Satan's presence among them indicates that at this time he still had access to God's immediate Presence on occasion. Note also that the Lord did not know for sure whether or not Satan had observed Job and his piety and fidelity towards God. He asked whether or not Satan had noted these characteristics of Job or not. Undoubtedly, the other "sons of god" (angels) were likewise reporting to God at this time in relation to various aspects of human activity on this planet.

 

[LightandTruth]

You have no idea how much wrong is with this sentence alone. First of all, God created everything, even the beginning. God does not depend on time, He created time. Everything for God is present including our past and future. How? Think about when you are writing a story, a child's book for example for your kid, you know the beginning, the middle, and the end. It is all present for you although the story has a beginning, then it can have the middle and then the end. God knows everything yes. He knew we were gona sin even before He created us so why does He then punishes us? Because it was our choice to sin, just because God knows our choice doesn't make us less guilty. If you give your child 2 options one good and one bad and you know he is gona make the wrong choice, does that make him innocent? No. God is not a human not to know. God is aware of everything because he created everything, there was nothing before the beginning just God (trinity).



Now this part. It is not enough to read the bible but we must understand it. We can read the bible in such mechanical manner, that we derive no benefit from doing so. I can be reading it's words and yet I can be drawing conclusion which is quite false. The commonest cause of all of this is our tendency to approach the bible with a theory and then everything is controlled by this theory (I'm not saying that's what you do). The bible is our only authority. You sure you didn't approach the bible with your own theory? Did you look into the bible looking for this specific topic, to disprove God knows everything? Because then that's all you will find.

Now to your question of this verse: God knew before Abraham obeyed that he would obey God by demonstrating willingness to sacrifice his only son Isaac. The Hebrew word for know in this verse is “yada,” and means to ascertain by seeing. To ascertain is to find something out for certain. God’s previous knowledge of what Abraham would do was confirmed by observing Abraham’s obedience. When God said, “I know that thou fearest God,” it did not mean that God did not know previously what Abraham would do. God knew beforehand that Abraham would be obedient, but He said “now I know” since He had now observed the obedience that He already knew would happen.

I realize that the strength of your response is an emotional reaction to the controversial nature of my observations, Ivan, so I won't take offense to your comments above. For the record, I do NOT approach God's Word with preconceived outcomes or ideas governing my understanding and interpretation. Such an approach is characteristic of church-goers due to the indoctrination they receive on a weekly basis. Perhaps you are one of these?

You might be very surprised to discover that there essentially IS no end to human history on this planet. The Scriptures indicate this in various places also. I note that in your response you included no Scriptures of your own but you referenced my citation of Genesis 22 and Abraham's offering of Isaac on the altar. You admitted (note very carefully your comments above in this regard) that God required CONFIRMATION of his prior knowledge that Abraham would be obedient to God's command, ultimately. Allow me to redefine more accurately what that prior knowledge represents. God had extensive knowledge of Abraham prior to this event, due to His research of him and observation of his activities and responses to various situations and tests. God HOPED that Abraham would prove faithful to the letter in this final test, but He DID NOT KNOW FOR SURE what the outcome would be as to whether or not Abraham would follow through completely. That is why this test was necessary. God doesn't take pleasure in tormenting His beloved people via horrific sacrifice requirements like this. The only reason He put Abraham to such a test was the he had a very unique and important role to play in the creation and development of an exclusive, glorious, unique Nation of People. God would never "play games" with people like this if He had full, comprehensive knowledge of the depth and extent of their faithfulness to Him prior to such an event. So yes - contrary to your cherished view of God as knowing all thing about everyone from the "beginning to end of human history" - God reveals Himself otherwise in His Word. His knowledge is, in fact, time-oriented within this realm. His knowledge develops and updates according to the current events and activities of humans on this planet on an ongoing basis.

On a more psychological and cognitive note - it really would make very little sense for God to create a "free will" physical realm like this with all outcomes and decisions and destinies pre-determined from eternity past to eternity future. He would have "painted Himself into a corner" volitionally Himself, and would have not options going forward but to react according to His own immutable Nature in response to the predetermined actions and decisions of men. God is not so foolish as to limit His own Will and Person in this way. He wanted a realm where He could interact with, prompt and guide individuals at a very personal level to conform to His Will and Mind and Person within the scope of their own free will.

Free will is a very real component in all of this. God's supposed "omniscience" is not. That latter idea is the result of man-made doctrines and misunderstandings.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

He DID NOT KNOW FOR SURE what the outcome would be as to whether or not Abraham would follow through completely.

So you are suggesting that God had to learn what Abraham had to. You suggest that God had to learn.

If God did not know that Abraham was going to slay Isaac or not, then did God know if Abraham was going to take Isaac to the hill, tell Isaac to carry the wood, and a host of other decisions that had to be made in order for it all to work out. That is a lot of hopeful desires of God, hoping that Abraham will do what God ultimately wants him to do.

Furthermore, how did God know that once Abraham lifted the knife that at the last possible part of a second, Abraham wouldn't deflect the knife and not kill his son? According to your thesis, God did not actually know because there was another second in which Abraham could have changed his mind.

Your position on Gen. 22:12 raises more questions than it answers. Did God not know the present condition of Abraham's heart, since God knows all present things exhaustively? Did God not already know that Abraham feared Him? God already knew, according to Gen. 22:5, that Abraham expected that God would resurrect Isaac. Did God forget this as He tested Abraham. Since your thesis states that people have free will, then what guarantee does God have that Abraham will not become unfaithful in the future.If God doesn't know for sure that Abraham will be faithful in the future, then it means if Abraham becomes unfaithful God would have made a mistake. Can we trust a God that makes mistakes?

Since we can see that it is not consistent with scripture and logic to say that God did not know what was in Abraham's heart and that God did not know what Abraham would do, we can conclude that God was speaking to Abraham in terms that Abraham was familiar with. This is not at all foreign to scripture. In Gen. 3:9, after Adam's sin, God calls to Adam and asks, "Where are you?" Are we to say that God did not know where Adam was in the garden? Of course not. God makes statements often designed to reveal to us a truth that needs to be presented. In fact, God often asks questions He already knows the answer to. In Adam's case, the "where" was dealing with spiritual condition, not physical location. In Abraham's case, God was simply relating to Abraham in terms consistent with what Abraham would understand, particularly after the actual event with Isaac on the altar.

And God tests us, but God doesn't need to test us to see who we are, but He tests us to show us who we are. You can say God that here to, to show something to Abraham.

I must also reply about 'free will' and be free to argue about this. But are you sure we have free will? You sure we are not enslaved to sin and thus we constantly sin? I do challenge you to stop sin. Not possible. I'm sure you are aware of life situations when you do something bad and you can't stop no matter how strong your will is. Why? Because we are all enslaved to sin. We are all born in sinful Adam's flesh i.e. we can't stop sinning. The more free we thing we are, the more we just sin. And id God's adapts us as His child then we are no longer enslaved to sin but belong to God thus we spiritually desire to please God. So we either do according to one master (sin) or according to another master (God). I am not saying we have no free will but that we have much less than people realise.

 

[Paul James]

One of the greatest misunderstandings among Christians today is the scope and breadth of God's so-called "omniscience" (a word not found in the Scriptures). As one of His attributes, one would think that Christian theologians have thoroughly studied the Word of God and analyzed to death every text relevant to this aspect of God's Being and Mind. Surely there can be no mistake. Surely God has full knowledge of all that has ever existed and will exist in the future from eternity past, before He created everything. This is the generally held view among Christians. When you couple that belief with the idea that God's "omnipotence" and origination of everything as the great Creator makes Him culpable and personally responsible for all of the evil and suffering in our world - it's very difficult to resolve these ideas with the representation of God in the Scriptures as a God of holiness and love.

The biggest problem in all of this is that the Scriptures do not, in fact, reveal God's knowledge as being infinite according to the "omniscience" concept at all. Quite the opposite in fact. From Genesis to Revelation, God indicates (and states outright) that He does NOT "know everything about everyone". That's a very difficult reality check for Christians and a bitter pill to swallow considering the teachings received in most "churches" from cradle to grave.

I'll just touch on a few texts and point out some things most Christians miss completely when reading God's Word. One of the most glaring examples of God's knowledge limitations in Genesis is found in chapter 18 where the God appeared in the form of three men and had lunch with Abraham and then informed him of their agenda and purpose in this visitation. "20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." Note that God did NOT "foreknow" the nature and extent of the wickedness in these cities. The "cry of it" came to him via angelic surveillance reports most likely. God went down to the cities personally to investigate and inspect them to see whether or not the reports were accurate. He was not about to destroy them based on second-hand information. This is a fascinating glimpse into God's knowledge limitations. In fact, He reveals the timeline of His acquisition of knowledge even more specifically and clearly in Psalm 139, "O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." Note that David indicates comprehensive knowledge of him as a person by God based on "searching" him - a process of investigation. This would definitely not be necessary if God has full knowledge of everyone and everything that would ever exist from eternity past. Later in the chapter David writes (under the Holy Spirit's guidance and inspiration), "23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." God would NOT have to "search" him out to determine the thoughts and intents of his heart if He had "omniscient" knowledge of David from eternity past. Obviously, this latter scenario is NOT the true nature of God's knowledge. God's knowledge is actively growing and developing continuously as people and circumstances change. It is dynamic and He is involved in discovery WITH His people.

Back in Genesis, this "searching" process is confirmed in the proposed sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham on an altar. His hand was withheld from killing his own son at the last moment in these terms, "11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Prior to Abraham's obedience in relation to this horrible requirement and sacrifice, God was unsure of the level of His trust and faith in Him and obedience to Him. This test set all questions in that area to rest for God. This test proved that Abraham was completely committed to God and to obedience to Him above all else. God's knowledge expanded and updated according to these new facts and revealed realities.

There is much much more in God's Word on this subject and in every case, God repeatedly confirms that He does NOT have full, comprehensive knowledge of each and every individual on this planet at any given point in history. He goes out of His way to carefully investigate His personal friends and People and gain very thorough knowledge of that very select group. Beyond that, He has general knowledge of what is going on among the rest of humanity and how that may affect His People, but He does not have infinite knowledge of all details. His all-encompassing knowledge is limited to the functions and details involved with sustaining and maintaining this reality and physical realm.

I trust these insights will be helpful to many seekers after Truth here.

How does this related to Jeremiah 1:406?
"The word of the LORD came to me, saying: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you a prophet to the nations.” “Ah, Lord GOD,” I said, “I surely do not know how to speak, for I am only a child!"
And,
"who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance" (1 Peter 1:2).

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world" (Revelation 13:8).

These verses clearly show that God knew us before we were formed in the womb, and were chosen to eternal life according to His foreknowledge, and that our names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world. So, to say that God does not know every detail concerning His creation, and every person in it, is to contradict what the Bible actually says about it.

 

[LightandTruth]

How does this related to Jeremiah 1:406?
"The word of the LORD came to me, saying: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you a prophet to the nations.” “Ah, Lord GOD,” I said, “I surely do not know how to speak, for I am only a child!"
And,
"who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance" (1 Peter 1:2).

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world" (Revelation 13:8).

These verses clearly show that God knew us before we were formed in the womb, and were chosen to eternal life according to His foreknowledge, and that our names were written in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world. So, to say that God does not know every detail concerning His creation, and every person in it, is to contradict what the Bible actually says about it.

A close look at the context on your Scripture citations above indicate a significantly different picture of God's knowledge, Paul.

Jeremiah 1:4 references God's genealogical, hereditary development of specific individuals in history (a "breeding program" so to speak) for very unique roles. That verse in no way, shape or form indicates God's knowledge of each human to that same degree. Not by a long shot.

Likewise, in 1 Peter 1 we see Paul addressing a very unique, exclusive group of people - the foundational generation of the New Covenant Kingdom of Heaven - the New Testament Church/Bride of Christ. THEY were "foreknown" in terms of a predetermined plan exclusive and unique to that temporal period concluding with that First Century generation.

I won't even bother touching on Revelation 13 as your understanding of that book and mine are worlds apart. That's a huge subject in itself.

 

[LightandTruth]

So you are suggesting that God had to learn what Abraham had to. You suggest that God had to learn.

If God did not know that Abraham was going to slay Isaac or not, then did God know if Abraham was going to take Isaac to the hill, tell Isaac to carry the wood, and a host of other decisions that had to be made in order for it all to work out. That is a lot of hopeful desires of God, hoping that Abraham will do what God ultimately wants him to do.

Furthermore, how did God know that once Abraham lifted the knife that at the last possible part of a second, Abraham wouldn't deflect the knife and not kill his son? According to your thesis, God did not actually know because there was another second in which Abraham could have changed his mind.

Your position on Gen. 22:12 raises more questions than it answers. Did God not know the present condition of Abraham's heart, since God knows all present things exhaustively? Did God not already know that Abraham feared Him? God already knew, according to Gen. 22:5, that Abraham expected that God would resurrect Isaac. Did God forget this as He tested Abraham. Since your thesis states that people have free will, then what guarantee does God have that Abraham will not become unfaithful in the future.If God doesn't know for sure that Abraham will be faithful in the future, then it means if Abraham becomes unfaithful God would have made a mistake. Can we trust a God that makes mistakes?

Since we can see that it is not consistent with scripture and logic to say that God did not know what was in Abraham's heart and that God did not know what Abraham would do, we can conclude that God was speaking to Abraham in terms that Abraham was familiar with. This is not at all foreign to scripture. In Gen. 3:9, after Adam's sin, God calls to Adam and asks, "Where are you?" Are we to say that God did not know where Adam was in the garden? Of course not. God makes statements often designed to reveal to us a truth that needs to be presented. In fact, God often asks questions He already knows the answer to. In Adam's case, the "where" was dealing with spiritual condition, not physical location. In Abraham's case, God was simply relating to Abraham in terms consistent with what Abraham would understand, particularly after the actual event with Isaac on the altar.

And God tests us, but God doesn't need to test us to see who we are, but He tests us to show us who we are. You can say God that here to, to show something to Abraham.

I must also reply about 'free will' and be free to argue about this. But are you sure we have free will? You sure we are not enslaved to sin and thus we constantly sin? I do challenge you to stop sin. Not possible. I'm sure you are aware of life situations when you do something bad and you can't stop no matter how strong your will is. Why? Because we are all enslaved to sin. We are all born in sinful Adam's flesh i.e. we can't stop sinning. The more free we thing we are, the more we just sin. And id God's adapts us as His child then we are no longer enslaved to sin but belong to God thus we spiritually desire to please God. So we either do according to one master (sin) or according to another master (God). I am not saying we have no free will but that we have much less than people realise.

Yes, Ivan - God hoped that Abraham WOULD make all those preparatory decisions leading up the actual sacrifice. God accepted Abraham's obvious intent as the fait accompli. There was no mind reading involved and He chose to stay Abraham's hand at the most appropriate final moment. There is no need to try to read anything else into that text. The obvious statement on God's part leaves no option for argument or misunderstanding. God makes no mistakes but it seems that at times He has some regrets. The Scriptures state that He "repented" (regretted) creating man when the wickedness of men required the Great Flood in Noah's day. Genesis 6:5,6, "5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Obviously God foresaw (as opposed to "foreknew") the possibility that man could become this wicked but still He had hoped for a better outcome. Sadly, He was left with no option but to destroy all of them.

Your argument about God "speaking to Abraham in terms that Abraham was familiar with" indicates a certain amount of deception on God's part. When God stated "NOW I know..." He was being misleading. According to your understanding, even though God foreknew from eternity past exactly what would happen - He PRETENDED that this test was necessary in order to determine the true level of Abraham's heart commitment to Him. In other words, God is a deceiver and liar in your view. He is unable to make Himself clear in human language (that He created) to communicate to the human mind (that He created) what the exact nature of His Person is (the true intent of the written revelation of Himself we refer to as the Christian Scriptures or Bible). Your argument is not a Christian faith argument Ivan. It is a perspective governed by man-made thinking and doctrines. Perhaps you are consulting commentaries in preparing your responses? Please respond from your own heart without reference to the thinking of others (including so-called "theologians" and "experts"). That argument you are referencing is known as "anthropormorphism" - God assigning human limitations to Himself in order to convey some sort of "personhood" that is approachable and somewhat comprehensible to us. That argument is a lie and undermines the infallibility and inerrancy of God and His Word. When God asked Adam "Where are you?" - you believe He was playing games with Adam? He knew exactly where Adam was but wanted him to respond and reveal himself of his own accord? That's one possibility. Here's another (equally supported by the text). God did NOT know exactly where Adam was but believed (was reasonably confident) that he was within the range of His powerful voice. Think about it. Go back and take another look at the context. Here's some further context for you as you do so. Genesis 2:19, "19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." God clearly had no foreknowledge what Adam would name all of these creatures. This was a time of deep satisfaction and discovery for God WITH Adam. This is part of having a close relationship with another person - experiencing things for the first time together. Take God's Word at face value here Ivan. It really is VERY VERY clear.

When I refer to our "free will", I am referring to our decision-making abilities that are free of all control by supernatural entities - including, and especially, God. God permits man to make decisions outside of His control but He responds in various ways to limit the damage we may cause by selfish choices or He may allow us to experience the consequences of those choices. But those choices are OURS - NOT His OR His "foreordained", "predetermined" choices for us.

 

[Athanasius377]

That's not exactly what I said. I said He does not have full knowledge of each individual in humanity, but He DOES have comprehensive, complete knowledge of the mechanics of this physical planet and its ecosystems etc. according to His original design and ongoing maintenance thereof.

Thank you for your honest reply. I think you have described some being that is not God by definition.

 

[Paul James]

A close look at the context on your Scripture citations above indicate a significantly different picture of God's knowledge, Paul.

Jeremiah 1:4 references God's genealogical, hereditary development of specific individuals in history (a "breeding program" so to speak) for very unique roles. That verse in no way, shape or form indicates God's knowledge of each human to that same degree. Not by a long shot.

Likewise, in 1 Peter 1 we see Paul addressing a very unique, exclusive group of people - the foundational generation of the New Covenant Kingdom of Heaven - the New Testament Church/Bride of Christ. THEY were "foreknown" in terms of a predetermined plan exclusive and unique to that temporal period concluding with that First Century generation.

I won't even bother touching on Revelation 13 as your understanding of that book and mine are worlds apart. That's a huge subject in itself.

What is important to me, is that Jesus knows me at the judgment!

 

[Paul James]

Yes, Ivan - God hoped that Abraham WOULD make all those preparatory decisions leading up the actual sacrifice. God accepted Abraham's obvious intent as the fait accompli. There was no mind reading involved and He chose to stay Abraham's hand at the most appropriate final moment. There is no need to try to read anything else into that text. The obvious statement on God's part leaves no option for argument or misunderstanding. God makes no mistakes but it seems that at times He has some regrets. The Scriptures state that He "repented" (regretted) creating man when the wickedness of men required the Great Flood in Noah's day. Genesis 6:5,6, "5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Obviously God foresaw (as opposed to "foreknew") the possibility that man could become this wicked but still He had hoped for a better outcome. Sadly, He was left with no option but to destroy all of them.

Your argument about God "speaking to Abraham in terms that Abraham was familiar with" indicates a certain amount of deception on God's part. When God stated "NOW I know..." He was being misleading. According to your understanding, even though God foreknew from eternity past exactly what would happen - He PRETENDED that this test was necessary in order to determine the true level of Abraham's heart commitment to Him. In other words, God is a deceiver and liar in your view. He is unable to make Himself clear in human language (that He created) to communicate to the human mind (that He created) what the exact nature of His Person is (the true intent of the written revelation of Himself we refer to as the Christian Scriptures or Bible). Your argument is not a Christian faith argument Ivan. It is a perspective governed by man-made thinking and doctrines. Perhaps you are consulting commentaries in preparing your responses? Please respond from your own heart without reference to the thinking of others (including so-called "theologians" and "experts"). That argument you are referencing is known as "anthropormorphism" - God assigning human limitations to Himself in order to convey some sort of "personhood" that is approachable and somewhat comprehensible to us. That argument is a lie and undermines the infallibility and inerrancy of God and His Word. When God asked Adam "Where are you?" - you believe He was playing games with Adam? He knew exactly where Adam was but wanted him to respond and reveal himself of his own accord? That's one possibility. Here's another (equally supported by the text). God did NOT know exactly where Adam was but believed (was reasonably confident) that he was within the range of His powerful voice. Think about it. Go back and take another look at the context. Here's some further context for you as you do so. Genesis 2:19, "19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." God clearly had no foreknowledge what Adam would name all of these creatures. This was a time of deep satisfaction and discovery for God WITH Adam. This is part of having a close relationship with another person - experiencing things for the first time together. Take God's Word at face value here Ivan. It really is VERY VERY clear.

When I refer to our "free will", I am referring to our decision-making abilities that are free of all control by supernatural entities - including, and especially, God. God permits man to make decisions outside of His control but He responds in various ways to limit the damage we may cause by selfish choices or He may allow us to experience the consequences of those choices. But those choices are OURS - NOT His OR His "foreordained", "predetermined" choices for us.

There was a teaching that Gordon Olson came out with to show in Scripture that God does not know the future because it doesn't exist yet - that God knows everything that is knowable, but not the non-existent future. I found that very interesting and believed it for while. But now, I believe that God created time and exists outside of it, so He sees the past, present, and future all at once. But knowing the future doesn't mean that he manipulates it by taking the free will choice away from people - and yet when He gave a prophecy to one of His prophets in the Old Testament about something that is going to happen before it will happen, He arranged things so it would happen, so that when it did happen, people would believe that He is the true living God. I guess it all depends on how we read the Scripture.

 

[LightandTruth]

Thank you for your honest reply. I think you have described some being that is not God by definition.

You're welcome Athanasius. The definition of God you are relying on appears to be flawed, however. Please consider amending it in order to bring it into alignment with God's Word.

 

[LightandTruth]

There was a teaching that Gordon Olson came out with to show in Scripture that God does not know the future because it doesn't exist yet - that God knows everything that is knowable, but not the non-existent future. I found that very interesting and believed it for while. But now, I believe that God created time and exists outside of it, so He sees the past, present, and future all at once. But knowing the future doesn't mean that he manipulates it by taking the free will choice away from people - and yet when He gave a prophecy to one of His prophets in the Old Testament about something that is going to happen before it will happen, He arranged things so it would happen, so that when it did happen, people would believe that He is the true living God. I guess it all depends on how we read the Scripture.

I agree with you on some of those things Paul. In particular, I believe that God's prophetic revelations of events future to the timeline of the lives of the people He was communicating with were essentially "previews" of what He intended to accomplish and had full confidence that He COULD and WOULD accomplish those things because He is in control of this material sphere and realm - but NOT the people living within it. Yes, I would agree that there is no pre-existent future that is predetermined either in God's mind or otherwise. One of the texts that is misquoted and misunderstood in this regard is, "10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10). The context, particularly the subsequent verses confirm what we've just been saying, "
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. 12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: 13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory." The context of this prediction of the "end from the beginning" is the foreordained and planned history of ancient Israel. The physical Nation of Israel had a beginning and an end in history. God does not have the same detailed, predetermined plan for human history on this planet. The two are often confused by the casual reader.

 

[redleghunter]

That's not exactly what I said. I said He does not have full knowledge of each individual in humanity, but He DOES have comprehensive, complete knowledge of the mechanics of this physical planet and its ecosystems etc. according to His original design and ongoing maintenance thereof.

You just confirmed you see God not having full knowledge of His Creation.

Frankly your definition as limiting God’s knowledge is no different than open theism and in some cases deistic.

Your proof texts were selective, presumptuous and unconvincing.

 

[James A]

God has the perfect and direct knowledge of all things. There is no past or future in His world - it is always "eternal present". The terms "God changed His mind" , "surprised", "stretch out His hand" are anthropomorphism. Omniscience of God is hard to comprehend when we try to reconcile it with the free will of humans. I would leave foreknowledge versus free will as a mystery ; something beyond us to comprehend, ever.

I don't deny Angel's roles in maintaining the created world but arguing that Angels know something God doesn't know rejects the basic nature of God transcending space and time.

 

[LightandTruth]

You just confirmed you see God not having full knowledge of His Creation.

Frankly your definition as limiting God’s knowledge is no different than open theism and in some cases deistic.

Your proof texts were selective, presumptuous and unconvincing.

Allow me to follow up on my statement regarding God's lack of knowledge of every human on this planet. "21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt. 7:21-23

As can be clearly seen in Jesus' statement above concerning the future (to Him and His disciples at that time) judgment, some would beg to enter the kingdom of heaven based on acts that seemed to parallel ministries engaged in by His own People, but Jesus' response would be that HE NEVER KNEW THEM. He never had intimate, personal knowledge of them as friends of His - His spiritual family. This indicates a KNOWLEDGE LIMITATION of a very specific kind. You are arguing against the clear statements of Jesus Himself concerning God's knowledge of those who are His own vs. those who are not. Yes, I adhere to a position very similar to Open Theism - essentially the same in fact. But putting a label on it doesn't change its Scriptural veracity and exegetical validity.

My "proof texts" are more than just "proof texts". They are substantive evidence of God's revelation of the nature of His own knowledge. Attempting to disparage them by referring to them as "proof texts" (implying speculative treatment based on inaccurate contextual evaluation?) doesn't eradicate their very clear implications and inferences. If you choose to remain "unconvinced", I'm fine with that. That's your choice. But your argument is clearly with the Scriptures and God Himself - not with my understanding of them.

 

[LightandTruth]

God has the perfect and direct knowledge of all things. There is no past or future in His world - it is always "eternal present". The terms "God changed His mind" , "surprised", "stretch out His hand" are anthropomorphism. Omniscience of God is hard to comprehend when we try to reconcile it with the free will of humans. I would leave foreknowledge versus free will as a mystery ; something beyond us to comprehend, ever.

I don't deny Angel's roles but arguing that Angels know something God doesn't know rejects the basic nature of God transcending space and time.

Here's the problem with that reasoning James, and I'll address your concluding statement first as most significant. IF God "transcends" time and space, then you are saying that He is infinite and "transcendent" in His very Being - infinite in every way. Unfortunately for God (and you), this makes it impossible for Him to have any kind of genuine personal relationship with you or anyone else. God's attempt to reveal Himself to man accurately in His written Word was a massive failure, according to the reasoning you have presented in your statements above. The "anthropomorphism" argument is a worn-out falsehood holding to the idea that God is so utterly, fundamentally incomprehensible to man that He had to "dumb down" His own Person and Nature and attributes in order to present Himself in some sort of partially comprehensible and relatable form to man. God's usage of human limitation terminology is not necessarily an accurate representation of Himself, He is just playing "make believe" in order to create some kind of fantasy relationship between Himself and man. The "anthropomorphism" argument disparages God and His Word James, so it is a lie. I reject it utterly and unreservedly. I will no longer acknowledge it if anyone introduces it into a discussion like this. It is beneath every Christian to even give it a moment's consideration. It is blasphemy.