The Knowledge of God

James A

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If something is laid bare to your looks, it doesn't mean that you take the advantage and really look at it. When you see a naked woman somewhere, would you really look?
Just an example to show that the possibility to know does not equal knowledge itself.

James, I stay with my opinion. There is not one verse showing that God is indeed omniscient.


understanding is mentioned here as opposed to knowledge.

Concerning 1 John 3:20... it's the version really. It starts with an if-clause. So it can't count as proof for God's all-time omniscience. If the condition laid out by the first clause doesn't apply, we know nothing about what happens then.

Your other verses show God's knowledge in particular fields or areas. You can't generalize it.

"Possibility to know does not equals knowledge itself" is true for us humans however, there is no potentiality in God - He is always actual and so is His knowledge.

God has the perfect knowledge of everything which occurs in past, present and future to us, including human thoughts, even before the foundation of Earth was laid. Does it makes any sense God judges His creations with incomplete knowledge?

This would make one wonder - does God know the sins committed by humans?

Sin or moral evil is not a thing but is a state, defined as the corruption of the good. In the same way we can gauge the darkness by checking how strong the light is, God should be able to look at the good to determine the depth of sin. Yes, God knows sin albeit indirectly.

Look up "bible verse for omniscience", you will find dozens.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Theologians from the time of Apostles have studied the attributes of God such as eternity, omnipotence, omniscience, foreknowledge, predestination etc. It is on the knowledge that the liturgy of New Testament church is built on.
My husband studied theology and I came to know students of that pursuit. If a man doesn’t know God personally, then he fills that lacking The Source of understanding in other ways. It is to me like studying anatomy and physiology of the opposite sex thinking one then understands them.

And there is no evidence the Apostles studied the attributes of God. They were too occupied obeying Him. Paul’s brief mention of them is not from theoretical study but from talking with Him and to communicate something of that understanding to others.
For example, there are people who argue the elaborate study of the doctrine of Trinity is unnecessary but I doubt most church denominations will agree.
You are right, they will disagree. Since they lack the privilege of talking face to face with Jesus as a man speaks to his friend, and they don’t want the burden of personal obedience looming, they focus on matters that have no claim on their behavior. I understand. When life gets overwhelming I too talk
about abstract matters for a time.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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You cannot have faith in an unstable ignorant god as you preach.
You’d be surprised at the faith people have in a god who isn’t even there or faith in God doing what He never promised He’d do.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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"Possibility to know does not equals knowledge itself" is true for us humans however, there is no potentiality in God - He is always actual and so is His knowledge.

God has the perfect knowledge of everything which occurs in past, present and future to us, including human thoughts, even before the foundation of Earth was laid. Does it makes any sense God judges His creations with incomplete knowledge?

This would make one wonder - does God know the sins committed by humans?

Sin or moral evil is not a thing but is a state, defined as the corruption of the good. In the same way we can gauge the darkness by checking how strong the light is, God should be able to look at the good to determine the depth of sin. Yes, God knows sin albeit indirectly.

Look up "bible verse for omniscience", you will find dozens.
You’d be surprised at His knowledge of sin. It’s superior to ours by a long shot. We only see a bit. He sees everyone damaged by it to include generations.
 
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thomas_t

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He is always actual and so is His knowledge.
that's your philosophy about his knowledge.
Again, no scripture verse to back it up.
So I stay with my opinion: man shouldn't go beyond what is stated - especially in areas that man cannot fully understand to begin with. Man cannot grasp what perfect knowledge is , I think.
Judgement is his. Man cannot grasp what perfect judgement is. Hence, it is futile to make assumptions on whether or not perfect judgement implies omniscience, I think. We can't tell simply.

Look, the onus is on you. If you say, there are dozens of verses claiming God being omniscient... the onus is on you to show at least on of them. If you can't provide, I stay with my opinion.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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that's your philosophy about his knowledge.
Again, no scripture verse to back it up.
So I stay with my opinion: man shouldn't go beyond what is stated - especially in areas that man cannot fully understand to begin with. Man cannot grasp what perfect knowledge is , I think.
Judgement is his. Man cannot grasp what perfect judgement is. Hence, it is futile to make assumptions on whether or not perfect judgement implies omniscience, I think. We can't tell simply.

Look, the onus is on you. If you say, there are dozens of verses claiming God being omniscient... the onus is on you to show at least on of them. If you can't provide, I stay with my opinion.
It’s actually more beneficial to focus on what we can know based on what the writers of the Bible knew (what they wrote down is only a fraction of what they knew) then focusing on what we likely cannot know. In decades of observing by listening to and reading the claims of people, those tells themselves they can’t know all end up knowing less than those who don’t care what what they cannot know and seek to understand as much as possible.
 
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James A

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that's your philosophy about his knowledge.
Again, no scripture verse to back it up.
So I stay with my opinion: man shouldn't go beyond what is stated - especially in areas that man cannot fully understand to begin with. Man cannot grasp what perfect knowledge is , I think.
Judgement is his. Man cannot grasp what perfect judgement is. Hence, it is futile to make assumptions on whether or not perfect judgement implies omniscience, I think. We can't tell simply.

Look, the onus is on you. If you say, there are dozens of verses claiming God being omniscient... the onus is on you to show at least on of them. If you can't provide, I stay with my opinion.

God, the creator of time is timeless and thus is actual in every respect for, things in the eternal - timeless - world do not undergo change. If you believe this is my own philosophy and not in Bible, well, I respectfully decline to comment further.

God with the incomplete knowledge cannot judge humans for, He is lord of justice as well. You don't doubt Bible teaches that God cannot make mistakes, do you?

I did not copy/paste those verse about omniscience in this discussion because there are too many. I once copy/pasted four or five of them and you commented on two.
 
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James A

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It’s actually more beneficial to focus on what we can know based on what the writers of the Bible knew (what they wrote down is only a fraction of what they knew) then focusing on what we likely cannot know. In decades of observing by listening to and reading the claims of people, those tells themselves they can’t know all end up knowing less than those who don’t care what what they cannot know and seek to understand as much as possible.

It is Lord who gifts us the wisdom to understand Scriptures so, we should not determine "what we can know" versus "what we cannot know". I agree there are things human mind will never be able to grasp and early theologians, including the direct students of Apostles, called those concepts "mystery" and continued meditating on the word of God. I don't think Apostles discouraged any one studying the Scriptures too deep or encouraged to have a personal relationship instead.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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It is Lord who gifts us the wisdom to understand Scriptures so, we should not determine "what we can know" versus "what we cannot know".
But isnt that rather a matter we cannot deny?

For those not so gifted, should they admit it?
I agree there are things human mind will never be able to grasp and early theologians, including the direct students of Apostles, called those concepts "mystery" and continued meditating on the word of God.
Since none of their writings were seen to be inspired and amount to heresay, I don't think much is made of them. There are actually many things that are a mystery to some but not to others.
Apostles discouraged any one studying the Scriptures too deep or encouraged to have a personal relationship instead.
Since they extensively quoted them, I doubt this.
 
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thomas_t

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James, see post #57. I commented on all of your 5 "proof" verses for your version of omniscience. There are none giving evidence for your claim.
I would like to opt out of the debate now, I think our positions are made clear. Otherwise we might end up going round in circles here, I mean.
God with the incomplete knowledge cannot judge humans
as I said, this is your hypothesis on something you cannot understand to begin with. No human can understand perfect judgement.
I stay with @Dorothy Mae : we should rather focus on things we can understand.
Thanks for the debate... even if you reply, I respectfully stay with my stance. on omniscience.
 
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Danigt22

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This is the type of question that is better to wait until we see him. God cant lie, he will answer with the truth. Nevertheless, it really doesnt matter for me atleast. I know he is the only God, I will serve no other. That is why I no longer want to serve my flesh.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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This is the type of question that is better to wait until we see him. God cant lie, he will answer with the truth. Nevertheless, it really doesnt matter for me atleast. I know he is the only God, I will serve no other. That is why I no longer want to serve my flesh.
This is an answer one can not argue with as many things will be understood by those who didn’t understand on earth for sure.

But I wondered about this myself as if affects how I pray. So to find understanding I asked God Himself about his foreknowledge. His answer enlightened my mind and caused me to both be at peace intellectually as well as love Him with that mind. So if one wants to understand God (or anyone for that matter) it’s best to ask them directly to explain themselves. One is not left wondering if one truly understands or not.
 
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Danigt22

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This is an answer one can not argue with as many things will be understood by those who didn’t understand on earth for sure.

But I wondered about this myself as if affects how I pray. So to find understanding I asked God Himself about his foreknowledge. His answer enlightened my mind and caused me to both be at peace intellectually as well as love Him with that mind. So if one wants to understand God (or anyone for that matter) it’s best to ask them directly to explain themselves. One is not left wondering if one truly understands or not.

This is an answer one can not argue with as many things will be understood by those who didn’t understand on earth for sure.

But I wondered about this myself as if affects how I pray. So to find understanding I asked God Himself about his foreknowledge. His answer enlightened my mind and caused me to both be at peace intellectually as well as love Him with that mind. So if one wants to understand God (or anyone for that matter) it’s best to ask them directly to explain themselves. One is not left wondering if one truly understands or not.

From what I feel, many things are out of our league intellectually, for example how does he lives outside of time or how can he create everything with just speaking and such, I know we will get to understand it when we get our spiritual bodies.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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From what I feel, many things are out of our league intellectually, for example how does he lives outside of time or how can he create everything with just speaking and such, I know we will get to understand it when we get our spiritual bodies.
You are correct. But explaining Himself opening up the human mind is not beyond His abilities. It is not primarily a question of intellect but heart intent. Knowledge is power AND responsibility. To whom much is given, much is required. So God has opened the minds of some people giving them understanding of Himself no theology course could do.
 
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Marumorose

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One of the greatest misunderstandings among Christians today is the scope and breadth of God's so-called "omniscience" (a word not found in the Scriptures). As one of His attributes, one would think that Christian theologians have thoroughly studied the Word of God and analyzed to death every text relevant to this aspect of God's Being and Mind. Surely there can be no mistake. Surely God has full knowledge of all that has ever existed and will exist in the future from eternity past, before He created everything. This is the generally held view among Christians. When you couple that belief with the idea that God's "omnipotence" and origination of everything as the great Creator makes Him culpable and personally responsible for all of the evil and suffering in our world - it's very difficult to resolve these ideas with the representation of God in the Scriptures as a God of holiness and love.

The biggest problem in all of this is that the Scriptures do not, in fact, reveal God's knowledge as being infinite according to the "omniscience" concept at all. Quite the opposite in fact. From Genesis to Revelation, God indicates (and states outright) that He does NOT "know everything about everyone". That's a very difficult reality check for Christians and a bitter pill to swallow considering the teachings received in most "churches" from cradle to grave.

I'll just touch on a few texts and point out some things most Christians miss completely when reading God's Word. One of the most glaring examples of God's knowledge limitations in Genesis is found in chapter 18 where the God appeared in the form of three men and had lunch with Abraham and then informed him of their agenda and purpose in this visitation. "20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." Note that God did NOT "foreknow" the nature and extent of the wickedness in these cities. The "cry of it" came to him via angelic surveillance reports most likely. God went down to the cities personally to investigate and inspect them to see whether or not the reports were accurate. He was not about to destroy them based on second-hand information. This is a fascinating glimpse into God's knowledge limitations. In fact, He reveals the timeline of His acquisition of knowledge even more specifically and clearly in Psalm 139, "O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it." Note that David indicates comprehensive knowledge of him as a person by God based on "searching" him - a process of investigation. This would definitely not be necessary if God has full knowledge of everyone and everything that would ever exist from eternity past. Later in the chapter David writes (under the Holy Spirit's guidance and inspiration), "23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." God would NOT have to "search" him out to determine the thoughts and intents of his heart if He had "omniscient" knowledge of David from eternity past. Obviously, this latter scenario is NOT the true nature of God's knowledge. God's knowledge is actively growing and developing continuously as people and circumstances change. It is dynamic and He is involved in discovery WITH His people.

Back in Genesis, this "searching" process is confirmed in the proposed sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham on an altar. His hand was withheld from killing his own son at the last moment in these terms, "11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Prior to Abraham's obedience in relation to this horrible requirement and sacrifice, God was unsure of the level of His trust and faith in Him and obedience to Him. This test set all questions in that area to rest for God. This test proved that Abraham was completely committed to God and to obedience to Him above all else. God's knowledge expanded and updated according to these new facts and revealed realities.

There is much much more in God's Word on this subject and in every case, God repeatedly confirms that He does NOT have full, comprehensive knowledge of each and every individual on this planet at any given point in history. He goes out of His way to carefully investigate His personal friends and People and gain very thorough knowledge of that very select group. Beyond that, He has general knowledge of what is going on among the rest of humanity and how that may affect His People, but He does not have infinite knowledge of all details. His all-encompassing knowledge is limited to the functions and details involved with sustaining and maintaining this reality and physical realm.

I trust these insights will be helpful to many seekers after Truth here.
God knows everything and he is everywhere. He is inside and outside of you. Remember that you must not take everything literally when it comes to the bible.
That is why Lucifer thought that he could dethrone God because je believed that God did not know everything and he was kicked out of heaven

May God Bless You
 
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Dorothy Mae

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From what I feel, many things are out of our league intellectually, for example how does he lives outside of time or how can he create everything with just speaking and such, I know we will get to understand it when we get our spiritual bodies.
Eventually. There will be some catching up to do for those who made little progress here. But yes, you’re right.
 
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