The Interview with Dr. Kellogg

[rainbowinthesky]

Most of what castaway just quoted is material that was put out by the General Conference to protect their "organized work" and yet their "organized work" is antagonistic to the third angel's message as presented by brother Jones at the 1901 General Conference.

"And when men in the highest responsible positions make no difference between those who serve God and those who serve Him not, they evidence that their eyes are not single to the glory of God; therefore their whole body is full of darkness." T.M.273.

The Lord had sent the leaders one testimony after another "telling them what to do and what not to do but they departed from the light." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.23.

As a consequence, working under Satan's dictation, they manufactured testimonies to condemn the very instruments that God had sent to them to remedy the situation. See T.M.365,360-361.

In the book Testimonies to Ministers, p.273 the Lord told the leaders that they "did not know what spirit they were of" and on page 97 He told them that "their turning things upside down was known of the Lord." Instead they declared that it was brother Jones who did not know what spirit he was of!

Brother Jones was the very instrument that God was using to bring in a different order of things, the reorganization that the Lord had asked for between 1888 and 1901.

At the 1901 General Conference, brother Jones gave several lectures on reorganization. A.G. Daniells who was the chairman at that time said that brother Jones had light for the people and asked him to lecture on organization. The lectures are recorded in the 1901 G.C. Bulletin. I happen to own a copy of the bulletin and I have read them all. After the conference Mrs. White said that the light was assented to but nothing was done to implement it and two years later not only was the light of 1901 ignored but the leaders voted A.G. Daniells as president. Thus the reformatory principles that God had given to our people in 1901 were reversed.

The 1901 Constitution, which was after God's order, had abolished the title and the office of president of the General Conference so that Christ could be the Head of the church through the Holy Ghost. But in 1903 God was put aside and the human was once again exalted above the divine. In Prophets & Kings, p.170 we are told that the religion of Baal is the exaltion of the human above the divine. In Testimonies to Ministers, p.467, we read, "Baal, Baal is the choice. The religion of many among us will be the religion of apostate Israel because they love their own way and forsake the way of the Lord."

"The result of the last General Conference [1901] has been the greatest, the most terrible, sorrow of my life. No change was made. The spirit that should have been brought into the whole work as the result of that meeting was not brought in because men did not receive the testimonies of the Spirit of God. As they went to their several fields of labor, they did not walk in the light that the Lord had flashed upon their pathway, but carried into their work the wrong principles that had been prevailing in the work at Battle Creek." Manuscript Releases, vol.13,122.3.

sky

 

[Castaway57]

Most of what castaway just quoted is material that was put out by the General Conference to protect their "organized work" and yet their "organized work" is antagonistic to the third angel's message as presented by brother Jones at the 1901 General Conference.

sky

I have posted what Ellen White has written.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

No, you have posted what the General Conference manufactured in order to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin! (T.M.360).

sky

 

[rainbowinthesky]

When I quote from Ellen White you say it is all out of context but if you happen to quote from her everything is kosher because it is you who is quoting. You are totally ignorant of the apostasy of the leaders in General Conference.

"The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear." T.M.361.

And that is why the Lord said, "Men have taken unfair advantage of those whom they supposed to be under their jurisdiction. They were determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin. There will be no material change until there is a decided movement to bring in a different order of things." T.M.360.

There has never been a decided movement to bring in a different order of things. We came close to it in 1901 but the efforts put forth then in that direction were reversed in 1903 in General Conference.

"The self-confident management of men resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

"Unless you cease the work of making man amenable to man... The Lord will divorce you from His work." T.M.481.

Under that order of things W.C White became amenable to the ring leaders in apostasy and that is how they were able to influence Mrs. White in their campaign against Dr. kellogg and brother Jones.

sky

 

[Castaway57]

When I quote from Ellen White you say it is all out of context but if you happen to quote from her everything is kosher because it is you who is quoting. You are totally ignorant of the apostasy of the leaders in General Conference.

"The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear." T.M.361.

And that is why the Lord said, "Men have taken unfair advantage of those whom they supposed to be under their jurisdiction. They were determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin. There will be no material change until there is a decided movement to bring in a different order of things." T.M.360.

sky

Actually; I am not ignorant of the apostasy in our's or any other church by any stretch. And I am not saying what I have quoted from Ellen White is any better context than your own quotes. What I am doing is to show there is more to it than what you care to admit.

If you compare the date of the quote you keep saying from TM 360, with the dates of quotes that I have provided above; you will see that Ellen White does write about the progression over a number of years with apostasy of Jones, Waggoner, and Kellogg. I am not sure how you can side-step those warnings and deny that history.

If you look at the context of TM 360, it can also be seen that she was not addressing all in the General Conference; nor was she saying this about the church as a whole on an official basis, as being in a state of apostasy. I have clearly shown, with references, all that I have said.

There will always be apostasy; but there will always be Jer 3:15, and this wonderful promise to God's church should be the more major emphasis of all our discourses, rather than the other. We want to give Satan so much credit here! How outrageous when he deserves absolutely none.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Of course.

Time will tell who is speaking the truth and who is speaking a lie.

sky

 

[JDMiowa]

Read Martin Webber's farewell post in Outlook Magazine June.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

"The result of the last General Conference [1901] has been the greatest, the most terrible, sorrow of my life. No change was made. The spirit that should have been brought into the whole work as the result of that meeting was not brought in because men did not receive the testimonies of the Spirit of God. As they went to their several fields of labor, they did not walk in the light that the Lord had flashed upon their pathway, but carried into their work the wrong principles that had been prevailing in the work at Battle Creek." E.G. White, Manuscript Releases, vol.13,122.3.

"The brethren assented to the light God had given; but there were those connected with our institutions, especially with the Review and Herald office and the Conference, who brought in elements of unbelief, so that the light that was given was not acted upon. It was assented to, but no special change was made to bring about such a condition of things that the power of God could be revealed among His people...

"Year after year the same acknowledgement was made, but the principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work. God gave them clear light as to what they should do and what they should not do, but they departed from that light; and it is a marvel to me that we stand in as much prosperity as we do today. It is because of the great mercy of God, not because of our righteousness, but that His name should not be dishonored in the world." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.23.

Mrs. White continued with a strong statement expressing the extreme need for complete reorganization:

"What we want is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle." Ibid, p.25.


The 1901 Constitution: THE PRINCIPLE OF SELF-GOVERNMENT.

During this conference, A.T. Jones was asked to speak on reorganization for he had light for the people. In evening lectures he spoke to the delegates concerning organization from the Head:

"God's organization must come from the Head, which is Jesus Christ, the Head of the church; and it reaches to the individual. Now see the step that was taken in General Conference today. I want you to see how certainly that can never stop until it has reached each individual and brought him face to face with God, to stand there alone only with God. There was presented today, and endorsed, an appeal for local self-government in a certain place. Very good. And then it was said here that that was to be adopted in other parts. Very good. And when that district shall be organized there will be a local self-governing district; but the same process must go farther--each conference must be a self-governing local conference, and each church must be a local self-governing church, and each individual must be a local self-governing individual...

"But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...

"Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...

"I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.

"The principle of that testimony that brought us to the present constitution, that was the guiding of the making of the present constitution, is the principle of self-government. Each church, each man, indeed, governs himself, with God, with Christ, as his own personal Head, and with no conference as his head, no church elder as his head, no Union Conference president, or any other, as his head. Jesus Christ alone is his Head; and when these form themselves into a church, Jesus Christ is the Head of that church, and the elder is not." A.T. Jones, 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.153.

"The Conference Committee governs for itself, acts for itself, attends to its own business, and lets other people's business alone. The Union Conference Committee itself is a self-governing committee. It governs itself, not the conference, not any of the churches, nobody in the conference. The General Conference Committee is to be a self-governing committee, not to govern any other conference, or anybody at all but itself. And this Constitution (1903) opens the way for the committee--I do not say that the members intended it--it opens the way for them to encroach and governs somebody besides themselves. What I am after is that we shall have a constitution that shall everlastingly make that thing impossible; and the present Constitution (1901) does it." Idem, p.154.

to be continued

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Lecture on Organization (1901)
"Light for the People"
by A.T. Jones


"In our bodies, which we have ever with us, and to which we were directed to-day,--why is it that in all this exhortation of the Spirit of prophecy to reorganization, health reform comes in every time? Why is it, as to-day it was clearly cited, "I am fearfully and wonderfully made"? --It is because in this organization in which we ourselves are, our bodies which God has made us, He has presented before us an everlasting illustration of the organization of the church. And it is exceeding carelessness, and from that, blindness, that cannot see the organization of the church, what it must be, when every day each one carries about with him, and is constantly using, this body, which is composed of many members. Every one of these members is actuated by the head; and no two of them ever come into quarrel, ever have any difference of opinion, act in contrary ways. Or if they should by any means act in contrary ways, as the hands do to break a string, it is only apparently; they are actually pulling together. You simply cannot have schism in the body which God has organized from the head. So then, since God calls for re-organization, let not a soul here be afraid that there is going to be confusion, or schism, or anything of the kind. There is no danger whatever except among those who hold not to the head. Who is the church?--Those who look to the Head; those who seek the Head; those who are joined to the Head. 1 Cor.6:15,17.

Then there is no difference how many members there may be, though we are only one on one side of the earth, and another on the other side of the earth, we two members will move together, and act together, because the Head Christ Jesus, the Lord, is organizing both. His will actuates both. He is the One who is doing that in both." 1901 General Conference Bulletin, pp.41-42.

to be continued

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Lecture on God's Organization (1901)
"Light For The People"
by A.T. Jones

"Then this also must be considered: that position, place, never gives authority. Authority qualifies for the place. I will say it again: it must be a watchword for every one in this conference: Position never gives authority... Place, position, never bestows authority. No authority is derived from the place. But authority that a man already has from God, which God has put upon him, will qualify a man for the place to which God calls him; and if he has not that authority before he enters the place, he has not the authority when he is in the place. The view that place gives authority is precisely the principle of papal infallibility. The pope is not infallible before he is elected. Nobody claims that. He is only a cardinal before he is elected; but as soon as he is elected, then he is infallible; then he is inspired by the Holy Spirit because he holds his place. That is the papacy.

Christianity is that God clothes men with authority; and whether they have any place or position, or not, it is all right, they have authority, anyhow. Look at it: Jesus Christ was in this world, truly saying, "All power (and that is 'all authority' in the Revised Version) is given unto Me in Heaven and in earth;" and He had no place at all, not so much as to lay his head. He had no position at all. The Pharisees, the priests, the scribes, the lawyers, the hypocrites, had position; they had place; and they could lord it over Him, and set Him before them, and sit in judgment upon Him. Where was their authority?--They had none.

Jesus had the authority, and the people knew it, and the Pharisees who did not have it, grew so jealous of Him that they could not stand Him any longer. All the world has gone after Him, and so we must put Him out of the world to save our place. If we do not, we will lose our place.

The man who is connected with the Head, the man who serves God, the man who lives in Jesus Christ, can never lose his place; for his place is with Jesus Christ, under the wings of the Almighty, and he is safe. Where was Jesus' authority?--when He did not have any position or any place? How could He have authority? It was in the truth which He taught from God. All man's authority, all true and right authority in this world comes to him through the truth of God which he receives.

When we shall find a man in this world who has as much of the truth of God as Christ had in Him, we shall find a man who has all authority in heaven and earth, because he has all the truth in heaven and earth. The measure of the truth that a man has, only that measure of authority he has wherever he is. And if he is in the highest place of responsibility on this earth, if he has no truth, he has no authority. All the authority he can ever have in that place is the truth that is in Him, which is a part of him." Idem, 41-42.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

In 1901 the burden for reorganization on right principles was recognized; and, for the most part, action was taken by the general session that constitutionally started things in the right direction. The whole thrust of the Conference was to break the power of those who envisioned themselves as imbued with divine authority to rule their brethren. Much could probably be said concerning the changes that were made, changes that, had they been put into practice, could have led to still further changes that would have simplified the work even more, eventually bringing the work under the direct control of the Holy Spirit as in the days of the Apostles.

The Spirit of the Lord was at that Conference, and the things which He initiated there prompted these statements from Mrs. White:

"We have been trying to organize the work on right lines. The Lord sent His angels to minister unto us who are heirs of salvation, telling us how to carry the work forward. This is not our work. God has brought it about...

"I was never more astonished in my life than at the turn things have taken at this meeting. This is not our work; God has brought it about. Instruction regarding this was presented to me; but until the sum was worked out at this meeting, I could not comprehend this instruction. God's angels have been walking up and down in this congregation. I want everyone of you to remember this, and I want you to remember also that God has said that He will heal the wounds of His people...

"Who do you suppose has been among us since this Conference began? Who has kept away the objectionable features that generally appear in such a meeting? Who has walked up and down the aisles of the Tabernacle? The God of Heaven and His angels. And they did not come here to tear you to pieces, but to give you right and peaceable minds. They have been among us to work the works of God, to keep back the powers of darkness, that the work God designed should be done should not be hindered. The angels of God have been working among us." 1901 General Conference Bulletin, pp.463,464.

Despite this, the Conference was, as Mrs. White said in another place, the greatest disappointment in her life:

"The result of the last General Conference [1901] has been the greatest, the most terrible, sorrow of my life. No change was made. The spirit that should have been brought into the whole work as the result of that meeting was not brought in because men did not receive the testimonies of the Spirit of God. As they went to their several fields of labor, they did not walk in the light that the Lord had flashed upon their pathway, but carried into their work the wrong principles that had been prevailing in the work at Battle Creek." E.G. White, Manuscript Releases, vol.13,122.3.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

During this period of reorganization, Jones, especially, had seen a glimmer of the end to which God was seeking to direct the church. If the hand of the Lord can be seen in the work of the 1901 conference, then the New Constitution, which was the outworking of that Conference, must reveal in part the thing the Lord wanted done.

During the 1903 General Conference, the underworking of these ideas resulted in the opposition of the minority of the Committee on Plans and Constitution to the reversal of the 1901 Constitution as proposed by the majority of the Committee on Plans and Constitution in their report on the Constitution.

A protest was lodged by the minority of the committee regarding the proposed revision of the Constitution:

"The minority of your Committee on Plans and Constitution beg leave to submit that the Constitution proposed by the majority of the Committee appears to us to be so subversive to the principles of organization given to us at the General Conference of 1901 that we cannot possibly subscribe to it...

"The proposed new Constitution reverses the reformatory steps that were taken, and the principles which were given and adopted as the principles of reorganization, in the General Conference of 1901, and embodied in the present Constitution; and this, before that Constitution or the organization according to it, has ever had adequate trial. We therefore recommend that the Constitution of 1901 be given a fair trial before it be annihilated." General Conference, 1903, pp.146,147.

Those who supported the minority position were striving to retain at least two important principles that were included in the 1901 Constitution:

First, they felt that the shorter the constitution, the less regulation was possible, better and more efficient organization would result. As it was stated in the Minority Report, the proposed "new" Constitution was a reversal of that.

Second, the principle of "self-government" covered in depth by A.T. Jones, was the primary factor if the 1901 Constitution was to operate effectively.

 

[Castaway57]

Isa 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

In order to have a full picture of what truly happened within the ranks of Seventh-day Adventists more than one hundred years ago, it is necessary that we study brother Jones' APPEAL. He too, like Dr. Kellogg, was judged and sentenced without being given a chance to be heard by those who had made themselves prosecutors and judges in their own case.

AN APPEAL by A.T. Jones

Part 1

This APPEAL is printed in response to many calls from all parts of the country. It has not the "imprimatur" of any ecclesciastical official superior, nor the "imprint" of any "regular" publishing house. It does not need any, for it is the truth; as anyone can know who cares to know only the truth. Besides, since the whole delegation of the S.D.A. General Conference listened for nearly two hours to the reading of it, this ought to be sufficient surely that all others are at equal liberty to read it for themselves.

Presented before the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists at Takoma Park, Washington, D.C. May 27,1909.

To the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventists in session assembled:

Greeting: "Perfect peace and at such a time." I have APPEALED and do herein APPEAL from the procedure, the process and the action of your Executive Committee in council assembled at Gland, Switzerland, May 10-24, 1907: and from that decision and action as worded in a communication to me, dated, June 17, 1907, and published officially in the Review and Herald, June 27, 1907.

I do this because the form of orgnazation of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, of which this conference in session is the culmination, requires in justice that I should do it. As to form of organization, yours is a governmental system; as one Conference president defined it, "a political system." You have "a constitution" and "by-laws." You have "administration headquarters;" etc. According to your form of organization the Executive Committee is appointed to conduct your affairs between sessions. In form, therefore, as well as on principle, the Executive Committee is your creature, subordinate to you in every respect.

Therefore on principle no decision or action of this committee can be considered as absolute and final. On principle, and under your form of organization, every decision and every action of the committee is subject to examination, revising, or reversal by this body. Therefore on principle every decision and every action of the committee is subject to appeal by any person who may choose to contest any decision or action of the committee; and especially when, as in this case, the very fundamental and even elemental principles of justice, or procedure, and of Christian order, are involved. That is why I have taken the APPEAL.
___________

Note: It needs to be said that the reason why A.T. Jones stated that this appeal had not the "imprimatur" of any ecclesciastical official superior, nor the "imprint"' of any "regular" publishing house was due to the fact that the General Conference had passed a resolution in regard to the publishing work. Our people were told not to read anything unless it had the "imprimatur" of any ecclesiastical official superior or the "imprint" of any of our "regular" publishing house.

But a warning was sent to them:

"While engaged in earnest prayer, I was lost to everything around me; the room was filled with light, and I was bearing a message to an assembly that seemed to be the General Conference. I was moved by the Spirit of God to make a most earnest appeal; for I was impressed that great danger was before us at the heart of the work. I had been, and still was, bowed down with distress of mind and body, burdened with the thought that I must bear a message to our people at Battle Creek to warn them against a line of action that would separate God from the publishing house." Testimonies to Ministers,461.

"If you lay your hand upon the publishing work, this great instrumentality of God, to place your mold and superscription upon it, you will find that it will be dangerous to your own souls, and disastrous to the work of God. It will be as great a sin in the sight of God as was the sin of Uzzah when he put forth his hand to steady the ark... You cannot do this." Idem,462.

But they did it anyway.

"In the weakness of human judgment, men were gathering into their finite hands the lines of control, while God's will, God's way and counsel, were not sought as indispensable. Men of stubborn, ironlike will, both in and out of the office, were confederating together, determined to drive certain measures through in accordance with their own judgment." Idem,461,462.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

AN APPEAL by A.T. Jones

Part 2

Statement of the Case

It is proper that first of all I should state the case.

In 1902 I dissented from the action and proposed course of some members of the then Executive Committee of the General Conference. This I had full and perfect right to do.

In the spring of 1903, on the floor of the General Conference in session, I opposed the proposed change in General Conference order from that of 1901; and opposed the proposed new constitution by which would be established the changed order from that of 1901. This also I had full and perfect right to do.

In the fall of 1903 I went to the Battle Creek Sanitarium to teach the Bible, to preach the Gospel, and to engage in the general work of that institution. This, too, I had full and perfect right to do.

While I still dissented from the changed order from that of 1901, I simply dissented without making any opposition whatever to the new order of things. I had no wish to make any positive opposition to it. Besides, there was nothing connected with my position or work where I was that called for any positive course in that direction.

This, however, was not satisfactory to some who were of General Conference connection and standing. Therefore twice I was challenged by these, on behalf of "the people," that I should let "the people" know where I stand, because my "general attitude" had "greatly perplexed many of our people." It is due to you that I give the facts so that you can verify this if you wish.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

AN APPEAL by A.T. Jones

PART 3

The first of these challenges was not made direct to me. If it had been, then in view of the source from which the challenge came, the people would have known where I stand a year or more before I did tell them. That challenge came from W.C. White, writing in a way that included his mother, in a communication in which the statement was made, and I was mentioned by name, to this effect: "We do not propose to do anything that will give to you and Elder A.T. Jones influence with the people, until the people know where you stand."

I repeat, if that had been written direct to me, the people should have known just where I stand, a year or more before I told it.

The second call upon me in behalf of the people's knowing just where I stood because of the "perplexity" of the people regarding my "general attitude" came from the President of the General Conference. And I answered it in the leaflet, "Some History, Some Experience, and Some Facts." March 1906. This statement to the people of where I stand did not satisfy the members of the General Conference and that Committee as such took it up and issued a statement (latter part of 1906) in which they called upon me for "proofs" of what I had written, and demanded to know "how" I knew what I had told. In the leaflet "Final Word and Confession" (July, 1906) I gave the proof, and told just how I knew.

The next step was this of the General Conference in the council held at Gland, Switzerland, May 10-24, 1907, in which without any notice or information of any kind to me that any question was to be raised or any action taken in reference to me; and wholly in my absence in every sense; and without my having any kind of a chance to be heard, your Executive Committee tried my case, found me guilty, condemned me, and executed their judgment upon me, sent me their official notice to that effect, and then, without waiting for any reply from me as to whether I would repent or not, further executed their judgment by publishing it to the denomination and to the world.

That is the case: and there and thereupon I took this APPEAL.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

An Appeal by A.T. Jones

Part 4

The Character of that Action

One brother to whom I stated this fact of the Committee's trying me, condemning me, and executing their judgment upon me, without notice or information to me, and wholly in my absence and without my knowledge, simply could not believe it; and I suppose does not believe it to this day. Possibly all of you can not and do not believe it. Nevertheless it is the perfect truth before God and the world, and those men know it. And my appeal before God and the world is, Do you endorse that procedure, that process and that action?

By official action May 31,1909, the General Conference in session did fully endorse the action, the process and the procedure of their committee and council at Gland, Switzerland, May, 1907, and did it on the same false basis and the same false principle as that of the course of the committee itself. The minutes of the General Conference action of endorsement present that this action was taken as the "necessary conclusion" of what had been done at Berrien Springs, Mich., May,1906, where the question, it is said, was fully considered.

That this is not a true presentation at all is plain from the following facts:

1. There was not any possibility of a "full consideration" of the question at the Conference at Berrien Springs, because the material steps that make the case had not been taken. Here they are:

a. My leaflet, "History, Experience and Facts," was issued the latter part of March, 1906.

b. The "Statement" of the General Conference Committee refuting what I had said in my leaflet and calling for "proof" was not published until the latter part of May, 1906.

c. My "Final Word" giving the called-for proof was issued in July, 1906. Without these three--all three--publications any such thing as a full consideration was impossible.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

AN APPEAL by A.T. Jones

PART 5

Now, it is a fact that the Conference at Berrien Springs was held May 8-18, 1906; and so, before the "Statement" of the General Conference Committee was issued, and much more before, my "Final Word" was issued giving the proofs called for in the "Statement." It is true that Elder Daniells had page-proofs of the "Statement" at the Berrien Springs meeting, and did read portions of it. But even so there was no possibility of any full consideration of the case then; because the evidence essential to the case was not all in; and at the utmost only two of the three steps essential to the making of the case had yet been taken.

2. There entered into the action of the council at Gland concerning me things that occured only in March and April, 1907--things that "somebody told" that another man did, and for which, even if it were true, I never was responsible at all. All this the whole General Conference Delegation knew when they took their action May 31,1909, for the president of the General Conference had publicly told it to them all, the night of May 29; and upon it I had publicly said to them all, "Am I to be judged and condemned for what 'somebody told" him that another man did?' How those delegates could make out that "that action at Gland" May,1907, was the "necessary conclusion" of what occured at Berrien Springs in May,1906, when they all knew that into the action at Gland there entered things that occured only in March and April, 1907, possibly they can explain--on the same principle of justice by which they can justify the action at Gland in judging and condemning me for what "somebody told" the President that another person did, and with which I had nothing to do even if it had been true.

3. The action of the General Conference in session at Washington, D.C., May 31,1909, as "the necessary conclusion" of what occured (and what did not occur) at Berrien Springs, Mich., May, 1906, even upon their own statement, is all in utter oblivion of the simple principle of justice that a person judged (even upon a hearing) by one set of men at one place, can never by any possibility justify another set of men at another place in judging the same person in the same case without any hearing or any chance to be heard.

Therefore, even upon their own statement, in the action taken May 31, 1909, in this manner, the Seventh-day Adventist General Conference in session did in fact commit itself to the lawless principle, and did justify the assumption of the lawless prerogative, of judging men without their having been heard, and without any notification or information whatever.

The wicked Jews when in general committee seeking to kill the Lord Jesus, even they could be checked with the word from one of their members, "Doth our law judge any man before it hear him, and know what he doeth?" In my case it seems that no such question was even asked. If it was asked it is certain that it had no effect to check the proceedings.

tbc

 

[rainbowinthesky]

AN APPEAL by A.T. Jones

PART 6

The profession is that the denominational "organization" is practically the reproduction of that established by Moses. But nowhere in all the writings or the order of Moses is there any sanction given or implied to any such thing as this that was done by your committee in this case. In the Mosaic order it is specifically declared, "Justice, justice, that which is altogether just, shalt thou follow." And in order that justice might be followed and found, the Mosaic order ordained that in "all manner of trespass," and of "controversy between men" "the case of both parties shall come before the Judges."

In this case of the procedure of your committee, only one party was present. The other party, the accused, was not present; he was not asked to be present; and he was neither notified nor informed that the matter was to be touched at all. In his absence in every possible sense, without his being heard and without his having any chance to be heard, he was tried and condemned at a place four thousand miles away. And the execution of their judgment upon him was the first intimation that he had of the matter in any way whatever.

I appeal from that action. I appeal from that process. I appeal from that procedure. Upon the Scriptures I appeal. Upon the Mosaic order, according to which it is professed that you are "organized," I appeal. In the name of Christianity I appeal; for not a single step prescribed by Christ or in the New Testament was taken in this case. In the name of only human justice I appeal. I appeal even by that one single remaining decent trait of the wicked Jews against Jesus--that even they had yet enough remaining respect for the common justice that they could be checked by the word, "Doth our law judge any man before it hear him, and know what he doeth?" Will you regard this appeal? Or do you endorse the action, the process, and the procedure of your committee in this case?

When the Jews, wanting to kill Paul, desired "to have judgment against him" in his absence, even a heathen Roman laid down the principle of justice that is it not the manner of Romans to do thus.

Nor yet is this all: Wickliffe was three times tried by the Papacy; John Huss and Jerome were tried, condemned, and executed, by the Papacy; Luther was tried and condemned by the Papacy; but never once not one of them without a full and open hearing: or at the least a full and open notification and citation or summons. Wickliffe had full opportunity to answer, each of the three times. Huss three times, and Jerome twice, were heard for hours--Jerome twelve hours. Luther was heard as long as he chose to speak; first in his native German and afterward in Latin.

 

[Castaway57]

AN APPEAL by A.T. Jones

PART 6

The profession is that the denominational "organization" is practically the reproduction of that established by Moses. But nowhere in all the writings or the order of Moses is there any sanction given or implied to any such thing as this that was done by your committee in this case.

It is obvious that Jones had a huge problem with any kind of authority - and so do those who follow him like he is some kind of demi-god.

And what's really weird is how such followers preach away till the cows come home about "authority" in the church being "bad" or "wrong;" and because of this we are not to "follow one man;" yet, they themselves follow Kellogg so religiously that you'd think he was scripture.

New riddles arising in this thread with every post and the associated comments.