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The Interview with Dr. Kellogg

Castaway57

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This is what the Interview reveals and if you have not read AN APPEAL by A.T. Jones, it is highly recommanded that you did. The Appeal is the best you will ever read, after the Interview with Dr. kellogg, as to what was really going on in those days.

sky
It would seem that Ellen White saw it differently than you - and this is why I have said you may be trying to appear as an "expert" with the testimonies, when in reality you are simply discrediting them and tearing them down.
November 11, 1908, Departed from the Faith. -- "I must warn our
people against laboring in any line in connection with A. T. Jones.
He is one who has departed from the faith, and has given heed to
seducing spirits. He knows not what manner of spirit he is of." --
Letter 330, 1908.
 
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Castaway57

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Far from being a pantheist Dr. Kellogg, in his book THE LIVING TEMPLE presented the truth as he had always taught it and yet had never been accused of teaching error not even by Ellen White

sky
OOps; I guess you forgot about this:
October 1st, 1907 Now in Apostasy.

"I want to say to you, Brother and Sister Starr, that the time we have so long anticipated has come. A. T. Jones has come to the place where he voices the mind and faith of Dr. Kellogg. They have now taken a decided stand against the truth, and special efforts will be made to lead souls away. This apostasy has cost us dearly . . . Warning after warning has been given to these men, but they did not believe the testimonies. Their work against the truth has been marked by deception as was the course of Canright. Many whose sympathies were with Dr. Kellogg, have united with him, and have departed from the faith." -- Letter 316, 1907.
 
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"Dr. Kellogg has had every advantage to make impressions on human minds, and he will improve this to the best of his ability in an effort to destroy confidence in the testimonies. Those associated with him who have upheld him, will have to answer before God for their course of action." -- Letter 258, 1906.

This is a perfect example of what I was saying about "testimonies" based on lies that were told Mrs. White. Mrs. White was misinformed. The Lord did not show her anything of the sort. This is a lie. Dr. Kellogg never did anything to destroy confidence in the testimonies. On the contrary. The truth is that the leaders in General Conference who were opposed to Dr. Kellogg had lied to Mrs. White telling her that Dr. Kellogg was in the process of writing a book to "expose" the testimonies and that he was at war with Mrs. White. It could not be any further from the truth. Dr. Kellogg did everything he could to protect the cause of God by giving Mrs White the benefit of the doubt. He knew that she was constantly being misinformed.

The interview and the APPEAL by brother Jones prove this beyond any shadow of doubt.

This should not be too difficult to understand especially when one considers that the Lord had warned that the leaders in G.C. were working under the dictation of Satan and that they were using his methods and that consequently fraud and guile would bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. See T.M.366.

sky
 
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Castaway57

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"Dr. Kellogg has had every advantage to make impressions on human minds, and he will improve this to the best of his ability in an effort to destroy confidence in the testimonies. Those associated with him who have upheld him, will have to answer before God for their course of action." -- Letter 258, 1906.

This is a perfect example of what I was saying about "testimonies" based on lies that were told Mrs. White. Mrs. White was misinformed. The Lord did not show her anything of the sort. This is a lie. Dr. Kellogg never did anything to destroy confidence in the testimonies. On the contrary. The truth is that the leaders in General Conference who were opposed to Dr. Kellogg had lied to Mrs. White telling her that Dr. Kellogg was in the process of writing a book to "expose" the testimonies and that he was at war with Mrs. White. It could not be any further from the truth. Dr. Kellogg did everything he could to protect the cause of God by giving Mrs White the benefit of the doubt. He knew that she was constantly being misinformed.

The interview and the APPEAL by brother Jones prove this beyond any shadow of doubt.

This should not be too difficult to understand especially when one considers that the Lord had warned that the leaders in G.C. were working under the dictation of Satan and that they were using his methods and that consequently fraud and guile would bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. See T.M.366.

sky
So what you are telling us is that Mrs White was wrong, and that we only believe the portions of her testimonies that you say are to be believed? Ellen White did write what I quoted above, so going by what you are saying we cannot believe in the prophetic gift as being reliable or trustworthy, and we must all say with you: "It is a lie."

And all based upon a supposed "interview" that you wont even tell us the source of. Where did you get this material from? And why is it so much more reliable than the writings of Ellen G White?

As far as I can see; it doesn't prove a thing; it has not one iota of scripture in it to disprove even one sentence of our official teachings. The "interview" is simply a great heap of allegations. Absolutely no proof of any of them.

Should I tell everyone why you are working so hard to discredit WC White, or do you want to?

As for myself, I remain very disappointed to see all this stuff on the internet such as what you are posting about the Adventist Church. It is through this Church that I met and understood Jesus, and Jesus is the reason I remain with the ship. I can never believe what you keep saying, because there is just too much evidence showing Jesus at work in our Church, both through leaders and laity. Jer 3:15 is not something you can ever undo no matter how long of a list of unproven allegations you provide here.
 
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What you dont understand and probably never will is that the reason why there has been such a long delay for Christ to return is due to this apostasy on the part of the leadership which started more than a century ago and this apostasy we were told has been waxing stronger and stronger and will continue to do so until the very end of time.

It is easy to see that you can not even read the interview with an open mind without any prejudice whatsoever. This is called bigotry. It is impossible to read this interview and not see the honesty of Dr. Kellogg and the conspiracy against him by the ring leaders in apostasy who used and manipulated W.C. White to do their biddings in order to bring everyone to their terms as the men of the Sanhedrin did in their day. See T.M.361.

sky
 
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David Conklin

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>Far from being a pantheist Dr. Kellogg, in his book THE LIVING TEMPLE presented the truth as he had always taught it and yet had never been accused of teaching error not even by Ellen White

HA! I had a copy and read it--BURNED IT!

It is available at book.google: The Living Temple - John Harvey Kellogg - Google Books

Pgs 28-9:

Says one, "God may be present by his Spirit, or by his power, but certainly God himself cannot be present everywhere at once." We answer: How can power be separated from the source of power? Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God himself is actually and truly present. Said an objector, "God made the tree, it is true, just as a shoemaker makes a boot; but the shoemaker is not in the boot; so God made the tree, but he is not in the tree." The objector overlooked the fact that the process of tree-making in the living tree, is never complete so long as the tree is alive. The tree does not create itself; a creative power is constantly going forward in it. Buds and leaves come forth from within the tree [....] .... So there is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree-maker in the tree, a flower-maker in the flower,—a divine architect who understands every law of proportion, an infinite artist who possesses a limitless power of expression in color and form; there is, in all the world about us, an infinite, divine, though invisible Presence, to which the unenlightened may be blind, but which is ever declaring itself by its ceaseless, beneficent activity.
 
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Castaway57

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What you dont understand and probably never will is that the reason why there has been such a long delay for Christ to return is due to this apostasy on the part of the leadership which started more than a century ago and this apostasy we were told has been waxing stronger and stronger and will continue to do so until the very end of time.

It is easy to see that you can not even read the interview with an open mind without any prejudice whatsoever. This is called bigotry. It is impossible to read this interview and not see the honesty of Dr. Kellogg and the conspiracy against him by the ring leaders in apostasy who used and manipulated W.C. White to do their biddings in order to bring everyone to their terms as the men of the Sanhedrin did in their day. See T.M.361.

sky
OK; so you say I am a "bigot" now, we will add that to the list. Which I might add, is growing quite lengthy.

In regards to his "honesty;" well, we had someone in the news a while ago, arrested for child abuse, and quoting the Bible verse "greet one another with an holy kiss," all the way to jail. Maybe Kellogg was being "honest," but is that really the question here?

What does history actually say has happened with Kellogg in our church? And how have you established this "interview" transcript as bonafide Adventist history? Again; I ask, where did you get this material you have posted on the alleged "interview" with Kellogg?
 
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Castaway57

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>Far from being a pantheist Dr. Kellogg, in his book THE LIVING TEMPLE presented the truth as he had always taught it and yet had never been accused of teaching error not even by Ellen White

HA! I had a copy and read it--BURNED IT!

It is available at book.google: The Living Temple - John Harvey Kellogg - Google Books

Pgs 28-9:

Says one, "God may be present by his Spirit, or by his power, but certainly God himself cannot be present everywhere at once." We answer: How can power be separated from the source of power? Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God himself is actually and truly present. Said an objector, "God made the tree, it is true, just as a shoemaker makes a boot; but the shoemaker is not in the boot; so God made the tree, but he is not in the tree." The objector overlooked the fact that the process of tree-making in the living tree, is never complete so long as the tree is alive. The tree does not create itself; a creative power is constantly going forward in it. Buds and leaves come forth from within the tree [....] .... So there is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree-maker in the tree, a flower-maker in the flower,—a divine architect who understands every law of proportion, an infinite artist who possesses a limitless power of expression in color and form; there is, in all the world about us, an infinite, divine, though invisible Presence, to which the unenlightened may be blind, but which is ever declaring itself by its ceaseless, beneficent activity.
I would definitely agree with you on this one.
 
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Says one, "God may be present by his Spirit, or by his power, but certainly God himself cannot be present everywhere at once." We answer: How can power be separated from the source of power? Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God himself is actually and truly present. Said an objector, "God made the tree, it is true, just as a shoemaker makes a boot; but the shoemaker is not in the boot; so God made the tree, but he is not in the tree." The objector overlooked the fact that the process of tree-making in the living tree, is never complete so long as the tree is alive. The tree does not create itself; a creative power is constantly going forward in it. Buds and leaves come forth from within the tree [....] .... So there is present in the tree a power which creates and maintains it, a tree-maker in the tree, a flower-maker in the flower,—a divine architect who understands every law of proportion, an infinite artist who possesses a limitless power of expression in color and form; there is, in all the world about us, an infinite, divine, though invisible Presence, to which the unenlightened may be blind, but which is ever declaring itself by its ceaseless, beneficent activity."
___________________________________________

Okay, Dr. Kellogg is saying that "Where God's Spirit is at work, where God's power is manifested, God himself is actually and truly present."

In the book Patriarchs & Prophets, p.114, bottom of the page, we are told there that "Nature testifies of an Intelligence, a presence, an active agency, that works in and through her laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Christ says, 'My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.'"

So David, pray tell me, what is wrong with teaching that God by His Spirit is at work in all His created works?

This is what the Bible teaches. Rom.1:20; Col.1:17; Acts 17:28, etc etc

In the book Education p.14 we are told of "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all."

In the book Ministry of Healing, p.416, we read that "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active Agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will."

In Vol.8 of Testimonies, p.325 we read that "Those who judge of God from His handiwork and not from the suppositions of great men see His presence in everything."

It is by the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Godhead, that God and Christ are everywhere present.

God the Father and Christ are moving in all things through the mighty Agency of the Holy Spirit. This is exactly what Dr. Kellogg had taught for many years before he was falsely accused by prof Prescott of being a pantheist. One day brother Prescott was speaking before an audience quoting from pantheistic and spiritualistic books and attributing what he was reading from these books to THE LIVING TEMPLE and he would show these quotes to W.C. White and W.C. White would show these to his mother who would recognize these as pantheistic theories and this is how Dr. Kellogg came to be falsely accused.

These men will have to give an account of themselves before God for misleading Mrs White.

sky
 
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In Vol.8 of Testimonies, p.326 we read that "God puts His own Spirit into the seed, causing it to spring into life. Under His care the germ breaks through the case enclosing it and springs up to develop and bear fruit."

So, it is therefore the truth and nothing but truth what Dr. Kellogg stated, that God is, through the unseen, mighty Agency of the Holy Spirit, present in all His created works; that He is the divine Architect who understands every law of proportion, an infinite Artist who possesses a limitless power of expression in color and form; that there is, in all the world about us, an infinite, divine, though invisible Presence, to which the unenlightened may be blind, but which is ever declaring itself by its ceaseless, beneficent activity.

This is the true knowledge of God as we are told in the book Education, p.14.

Both Mrs. White and Dr. Kellogg understood the relation betwen nature and nature's God. If it had not been for the conspiracy against Dr. Kellogg on the part of the apostate leaders of the G.C. the earth would have been lightened with the glory of God, filled with the knowledge of God in that generation.

sky
 
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Near the end of the interview Dr. Kellogg said, concerning his book,

"All I wanted to explain in Living Temple was that this work that is going on in the man here is not going on by itself like a clock wound up, but it is the power of God and the Spirit of God that is carrying it on... I only wanted to show that the heart does not beat of its own motion but that it is the power of God that keeps it going."

There are those who say that obviously Ellen White did not see things the way that Dr. Kellogg viewed them. But as far as her writings are concerned this could not be any further from the truth and here is undeniable proof:

"The physical organism of man is under the supervision of God; but it is not like a clock, which is set in operation and must go of itself. The heart beats, pulse succeeds pulse, breath succeeds breath, but the entire being is under the supervision of God." Selected Messages, Vol.1,294.

"The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood. It presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God... By His Spirit He is everywhere present." Ministry of Healing,417.

"It is not because the mechanism once set on motion continues to act by its own inherent energy taht the pulse beats, and breath follows breath. Every breath, every pulsation of the heart, is an evidence of the care of Him in whom we live and move and have our being. From the smallest insect to man, every living creature is daily dependent upon His providence." Education,131.

Now if we stick to the statements above, both from Dr. Kellogg and Mrs. White, we cannot but come to the conclusion that they viewed these things in the same light.

Do you not see why one would get suspicious as to the source of all these statements that allegedly came from the pen of Mrs. White in regard to Dr. Kellogg's pantheistic views at the time when A.G. Daniells was determined to bring Dr. Kellogg to his terms, that he would rule over him or ruin him.(T.M.360) I believe that he and Prof. Prescoot were able to pull this off with the help of W.C. White who misinformed his mother by lying about Dr. Kellogg.

sky
 
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Castaway57

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These men will have to give an account of themselves before God for misleading Mrs White. sky
Just as I have suspected and said all along.

Your posts are trying to systematically attack & destroy the testimonies by saying that Ellen White was "misled," but I rejoice in knowing that our history proves you wrong, as it has so many others in the past who have tried similar arguments.

Again I ask; why is this so called "interview" with Kellogg so much better than the spirit of prophecy? Where did you get the material you posted and called the interview with Kellogg?
 
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Castaway57

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Do you not see why one would get suspicious as to the source of all these statements that allegedly came from the pen of Mrs. White in regard to Dr. Kellogg's pantheistic views at the time when A.G. Daniells was determined to bring Dr. Kellogg to his terms, that he would rule over him or ruin him.(T.M.360) I believe that he and Prof. Prescoot were able to pull this off with the help of W.C. White who misinformed his mother by lying about Dr. Kellogg. sky
You accuse a Godly man of our church of lying to his own mother and provide no proof? These things did not "allegedly" come from Ellen White's pen, they did come from her pen, and thats why some see it needful to call me a spiritual dwarf or other such things when I bring them up.

For one, of many examples, your use of TM 360 here to "prove" what you say re AG Daniells is patently false and misleading at best. There is nowhere on that page that even mentions the man's name, or insinuates it is in application to him. Here is the page:
"Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me" [SPECIAL TESTIMONIES TO MINISTERS AND WORKERS (SERIES A, NO. 9, 1897), PAGES 16-21.]

Granville, Australia, September, 1895.

I do not find rest in spirit. Scene after scene is presented in symbols before me, and I find no rest until I begin to write out the matter. At the center of the work matters are being shaped so that every other institution is following in the same course. And the General Conference is itself becoming corrupted with wrong sentiments and principles. [SEE APPENDIX.] In the working of plans, the same principles are manifest that have controlled matters at Battle Creek for quite a length of time. {TM 359.1}

I have been shown that the Jewish nation were not brought suddenly into their condition of thought and practice. From generation to generation they were working on false theories, carrying out principles opposed to the truth, and combining with their religion thoughts and plans that were the product of human minds. Human inventions were made supreme. {TM 359.2}

The holy principles that God has given are represented as the sacred fire, but common fire has been used in place of the sacred. Plans contrary to truth and righteousness are introduced in a subtle manner on the plea that this must be done, and that must be done, "because it is for the advancement of the cause of God." But it is the devising of men that leads to oppression, injustice, and wickedness. The cause of God is free from every taint of injustice. It can gain no advantage by robbing the members of the family of God of their individuality or their rights. All such practices are abhorrent to God. He inspires no such practices as have been entered into by your councils in regard to the publication of books. {TM 359.3}

The Lord accepts no such transactions; prosperity will not attend these moves. Men connected with His work have been dealing unjustly, and is time to call a halt. Let men deal with men upon the principles of the Ten Commandments, and not ignore these principles in business transactions. False propositions are assumed as truth and righteousness, and then everything is worked in such a way as to carry out these propositions, which are not in accordance with the will of God, but are a misrepresentation of His character. {TM 360.1}

The great and holy and merciful God will never be in league with dishonest practices; not a single touch of injustice will He vindicate. Men have taken unfair advantage of those whom they supposed to be under their jurisdiction. They were determined to bring the individuals to their terms; they would rule or ruin. There will be no material change until a decided movement is made to bring in a different order of things. {TM 360.2}

Let no plans or methods be adopted in any of our institutions that will bind mind or talent under the control of human judgment; for this is not in God's order. God has given to men talents of influence which belong to Him alone, and no greater dishonor can be done to God than for one finite agent to bring other men's talents under his absolute control, even though the benefits of the same be used to the advantage of the cause. In such arrangements one man's mind is ruled by another man's mind, and the human agency is separated from God and exposed to temptation. Satan's methods tend to one end--to make men the slaves of men. And when this is done, confusion and distrust, jealousies and evil surmisings, are the result. Such a course destroys faith in God and in the principles which are to control, to purge from guile and every species of selfishness and hypocrisy. {TM 360.3}
You presume to do what you tell us not to do and rule our minds as to what we can believe from Ellen White's writings, and what we cannot? There is nothing in the above quote of TM, pg 360 that would justify anything you have accused Ellen White or any of our other leaders of. There is a reason she did not name who she was talking about. She wanted to avoid just what you are doing here on this forum. And you are demanding that we follow you only by agreeing with whatever you say is inspired or not inspired of Ellen White's writings? Where is the logic in all this?

Through the 1890's Elder A. T. Jones was much in Battle Creek. He attended all sessions of the General Conference from 1888 to 1905, and often presented important addresses. Ellen White had occasion in April, 1893, to caution Elder Jones regarding extreme views in his presentations of the relation of faith and works (1 SM 377-380), and a few months later to reprove him for giving wholehearted support to Anna Rice Phillips who claimed the gift of prophecy (2 SM 85-95).

From time to time Ellen White counseled him to exercise caution in his manner of speaking and writing so as to avoid giving offense. On October 5, 1897, he was elevated to the position of leading editor of the REVIEW AND HERALD. It was announced that with this arrangement Elder Jones "instead of speaking to comparatively few of our people at annual gatherings, he will address all of them every week. This will give to our churches and scattered brethren everywhere, the privilege of receiving, each week, the words of faith, hope, courage, and good cheer that have been a means of so much blessing to many all over both America and Europe." -- REVIEW AND HERALD, Oct. 5, 1897, p. 640. Uriah Smith served as associate editor.

This arrangement continued until May 14, 1901, when an adjustment was made, and Elder Uriah Smith was returned to the position as editor in chief of the REVIEW AND HERALD and Brother Jones was freed for evangelistic work in the field.

At the General Conference session held February 19 to March 8, 1897, at College View, Nebraska, Jones was elected a member of the General Conference Committee.

He served in this capacity until, in a most unusual action, he resigned some time prior to the General Conference of 1901. Concerning this it should be noted that subsequent to the General Conference session held in February, 1899, efforts were made to right certain wrongs pointed out by the testimonies, and it is reported:

"The efforts of the Committee in this direction did not in every instance meet with that hearty co-operation that might be expected. This caused Elder Jones to lose sight of the dignity of his position to the extent of allowing, as the Testimony says, 'an evil spirit to cast drops of gall into his words,' and, forgetting the warning given him of God, 'he pressed his brethren into hard places.' When mildly reproved by the president of the General Conference for his course, and counseled to make the matter right with the brethren by apology, he resigned from the Committee."

--A Statement Refuting Charges

Made by A. T. Jones Against the Spirit of Prophecy and the Plan of Organization of the Seventh-day Adventist Denomination, pp. 15, 16 (96-page pamphlet published in May, 1906, by the General Conference Committee).

At the General Conference session held in Battle Creek in April, 1901, as presented in chapters 17 and 18, the work of the church was reorganized, which reorganization resulted in the drawing in of a number of men to carry responsibilities.

The field was divided into union conferences and provision was made for the organization of General Conference departments. Jones was again elected to the General Conference Committee, a position which he held until the session of 1905.

In the summer of 1901 he was assigned to general work in the field, and attended certain camp meetings. He took the position that we should have no "kings", that is, we should not have conference presidents. This sentiment prevailed in the writing up of a new constitution at the General Conference of 1901. The result was that a General Conference Committee was elected, with the committee authorized to appoint a chairman and other officers. A. T. Jones gave strong support to this plan. As he entered the field,attending camp meetings in 1901, his work took him to the West Coast, first to the Pacific Northwest and then to California. At the California Conference session in June he was elected president, and oddly enough, accepted the office. His harsh and domineering spirit soon cost him the confidence of many of those with whom he worked.

In the summer of 1903, at a time when affairs at the conference were most uncomfortable, he had an interview at Elmshaven with Ellen White, in which he told her that at the request of Dr. J. H. Kellogg he was planning to go to Battle Creek to teach Bible in the American Medical Missionary College. He hoped to be able to help Dr. Kellogg. She counseled him not to go. He promised Sister White that he would be guarded. She had been warned in vision that such a move on his part would lead to his downfall. She wrote of it thus:

"In vision I had seen him [A. T. Jones] under the influence of Dr. Kellogg. Fine threads were being woven around him, till he was being bound hand and foot, and his mind and his senses were becoming captivated."--Letter 116, 1906.

Then, comments Ellen White, as she reported this to Brother Jones just before he went to Battle Creek, she could see "that his perceptions were becoming confused, and that he did not believe the warning given. The enemy works in a strange, wonderful way to influence human minds."--Ibid.

But Jones was sure that he would not fall away. He was a man with too much self-confidence.

In 1904, still a member of the General Conference Committee, he was invited to assist in meeting some religious liberty crises in Washington, D.C. But in a few months he was back in Battle Creek. Ellen White endeavored to draw Elder Jones away from Battle Creek into evangelistic work, and this would doubtless have saved the man. On February 26, 1905, she wrote:

"Elder A. T. Jones, God calls upon you to go out into the cities, and give the last message of warning. Look to God for your support as you go. Call the people together, and you will certainly not work in vain. Let the truth go forth as a lamp that burneth. No longer confine your efforts to one place. Let there be held, right where you are, a solemn convocation. Let there be a renunciation of self to God. Hold fast the beginning of your faith unto the end. Let not your faith waver. Go forth in faith . .

" There are those who have never heard the message of mercy and warning. In the name of the Lord I say, Delay not. Proclaim the gospel message in the cities of America. Scatter the seeds of truth throughout these cities. Take with you reliable men, who with pen and voice will act their part in proclaiming the message of present truth to the world." -- Letter 187, 1905.

But he continued in Battle Creek under influences he was no match for. He was soon in bitter opposition to his brethren and to the Spirit of prophecy. He issued a number of tracts and pamphlets in defending his course.

A number of enlightening statements made by Ellen White in communications to him or in which reference is made to him between the time he joined Dr. Kellogg in Battle Creek until her last message to him in 1911 are most revealing. There unfolds the picture of the progressive steps in the experience of a man, self-confident, flaunting warning messages, and deliberately placing himself under influences that finally captivated him and led to his spiritual destruction.

There follows in chronological order excerpts from several Ellen G. White documents:
 
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JDMiowa

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Just as I have suspected and said all along.

Your posts are trying to systematically attack & destroy the testimonies by saying that Ellen White was "misled," but I rejoice in knowing that our history proves you wrong, as it has so many others in the past who have tried similar arguments.

Again I ask; why is this so called "interview" with Kellogg so much better than the spirit of prophecy? Where did you get the material you posted and called the interview with Kellogg?

Are you claiming that Ellen White can not be, "misled"? Let's see what Ellen White has to say about that. Quotes from Ellen G. White



"In regard to infallibility, I NEVER claimed it; God ALONE is Infallible." Selected Messages, Book One, pp 415 and 37

"Let no one come to the conclusion that there is no more truth to be revealed. The diligent, prayerful seeker for truth will find precious rays of light yet to shine forth from the word of God." Counsels on Sabbath School Work, p. 34

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. Review and Herald, December 20,1892

"We cannot hold that a position once taken, an idea once advocated, is not, under any circumstances, to be relinquished. There is but One who is infallible --- He is the way, the truth, and the life.

"If the pillars of our faith will not stand the test of investigation, it is time we knew it." Testimonies to Ministers, pp 105 and 107

"The Bible and the Bible alone, is our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy Word will be in harmony . . . Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible.

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed.

"In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in Him is no variableness, or shadow of turning." Selected Messages, Book One, pp. 416 and 37.

"Our position and faith is in the Bible. . . . And never do we want any soul to bring in the Testimonies ahead of the Bible." Evangelism, p. 256

“We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of God; they are erring mortals like ourselves. God has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor.

“We must study the truth for ourselves. No man should be relied upon to think for us. No matter who he is, or in what position he may be placed, we are not to look upon any man as a criterion for us. Testimonies to Ministers, pp. 106 and 110

“Whatever may be man’s intellectual advancement, let him not for a moment think that there is no need of thorough and continuous searching of Scripture for greater light. As a people we are called individually to be students of prophecy. We must watch with earnestness that we may discern any ray of light which God shall present to us. We are to catch the first gleamings of truth; and through prayerful study, clearer light may be obtained, which can be brought to others.

“Some of our leading brethren have frequently taken their position on the wrong side: and if God would send a message and wait for these older brethren to open the way for its advancement, it would never reach the people.

“The rebuke of the Lord will rest upon those who would bar the way, that clearer light shall not come to the people. . . . Let no one run the risk of interposing between the people and the message of heaven.” Gospel Workers, pp 300, 303, and 304.

A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, “We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God. But we are not safe when we take the position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God’s word for truth.” Review and Herald, June 18, 1888.

We need to begin all over again. . . . Errors may be hoary with age; but age dos not make error truth, nor truth error. Altogether too long have the old customs and habits been followed. The Lord would now have every idea that is false put away from teachers and students. We are not at liberty to teach that which shall meet the world’s standard or the standard of the church, simply because it is the custom to do so.” Testimonies for the Church, vol 6, p. 142.
 
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July 23rd, .1904, " Inharmonious Note" at the Berrien Springs Meeting

" The words and attitude of Brother A. T. Jones at the Berrien Springs meeting [1904] struck an inharmonious note,--a note that was not inspired of God. It created a state of things which resulted in harm that they did not anticipate. It made the work of the meeting very much harder than it would otherwise have been. Had it not been for their injudicious course, the Berrien Springs Conference would have shown very different results."-- Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 2, p. 42.

December 29 1905 LOst Spiritual Eyesight and Repudiated God 's Warning

--" I send no more [testimonies to be read to the Battle Creek church] to A. T. Jones, for I have evidence that a work will have to be done for him before the Lord will accept his service. God has given him warnings which he has repudiated, and I am deeply grieved that he has so little spiritual eyesight." -- Letter 345, 1905 (Written to G. W. Amadon, first elder of the Battle Creek church).

March 12th, 1906 The Wrong Spirit and Demonstrations of Bitterness.--

" You may be surprised to hear the words that you have heard from Elder A. T. Jones; but I am not at all surprised. This is the development of the man when the spirit that is counter to the Spirit of God comes upon him. In him as he is at the present time, you have a representation of a man who is not under the molding influence of the Spirit of God. The Lord accepts no such demonstrations of bitterness."

Read in my books, Patriarchs and Prophets and Great Controversy, the story of the first great apostasy. History is being repeated and will be repeated. Read then, and understand." -- Letter 98, 1906.

April 2nd, 1906, Captivated Deluded and Deceived.--

"During the General Conference at Takoma Park [April, 1905], Elder Jones's case was again presented to me. After this, I had a long conversation with him in which I pointed out his danger. But he was self-confident, and declared to me that Dr. Kellogg believed the truth and the testimonies just as firmly as the rest of us believed and advocated them. In this conversation Elder Jones manifested that which had been revealed to me regarding him, that in the place of receiving the warnings he was full of self-confidence; that he had exalted himself, and in the place of being prepared to help Dr. Kellogg, he had united with him to disbelieve and distrust, and falsely to accuse the ministers and others who were trying to save Dr. Kellogg and other physicians who were in peril. . .

"I warned Elder Jones, but he felt that he was not in the least danger. But the fine threads have been woven about him, and he is now a man deluded and deceived. Though claiming to believe the testimonies, he does not believe them." -- Letter 116, 1906 (to Dr. David Paulson).

May 1 1906, Chose Darkness Rather Than Light.

-- "I am sorry for A. T. Jones, who has been warned over and over again.

Notwithstanding these warnings, he has allowed the enemy to fill his mind with thoughts of self-importance. Heed not his words, for he has rejected the plainest light and has chosen darkness instead. The Holy One hath given us messages clear and distinct, but some poor souls have been blinded by the falsehoods and the deceptive influences of satanic agencies, and have turned from truth and righteousness to follow these fallacies of satanic origin." -- Manuscript 39, 1906.

June 15 1906 Voice Controlled by Dr. Kellogg --

"Dr. Kellogg controls the voice of Elder A. T. Jones, and will use him as his mouthpiece. My prayer is, 0 God, open Thou the blind eyes, that they may see: and the ears of the deaf that they may hear, and become humble." Letter 182, 1906.

July 5th, 1906, Grieved The Holy Spirit

"Elder A. T. Jones, Dear Brother,--Again and again your case has been presented before me. I am now instructed to say to you, You have had a large knowledge of truth, and less, far less, spiritual understanding. When you were called to the important work at Washington, you had need of far more of the humble grace that becometh a Christian. Since the Berrien Springs meeting, your attitude and the attitude of several others has grieved the Spirit of God. You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting . . . .

"Self-exaltation is your great danger. It causes you to swell to large proportions. You trust in your own wisdom, and that is often foolishness. Do you remember the counsel which I gave you in my letter of April, 1894? This was in answer to your letter expressing deep regret over the part you had taken in an unwise movement [Anna Phillips, see Selected Messages, book 2, pp. 85-95] and you appealed to me for instruction, that you might ever avoid such mistakes. . . .

"When at the General Conference at Washington I had a conversation with you, but it seemed to have no influence upon you. You appeared to feel fully capable of managing yourself. After that conversation, scene after scene passed before me in the night season, and I was then instructed that you neither had been nor would be a help to Dr. Kellogg; for you were blind in regard to his dangers and his real standing. You can not be a help to him; for you entirely misjudge his case. You consider the light given me of God regarding his position as of less value than your own judgment "Brother Jones, I have a message for you. In many respects you are a weak man. If I were to write out all that has been revealed to me of your weakness, and of the developments of your work that have not been in accordance with the course of a true Christian, the representation would not be pleasing. This may have to be done if you continue to justify yourself in a course of apostasy. Until your mind is cleared of the mist of perplexity, silence is eloquence on your part.

"I am so sorry that you are spoiling your record . .."Brother Jones, will you not earnestly seek the Lord, that in your life there may be a humbling of self, and an exaltation of the principles of righteousness? The success and prosperity of your work will depend upon your following strictly where Jesus leads the way. God would have you stand as a faithful watchman, laboring earnestly for souls ready to perish. If you will consent to be a worker together with God, you may manifest in earnest words and works, the gracious influence of the Holy Spirit. True repentance will bring newness of life." -- Letter 242, 1906.

July 27th, 1906. A Revival Of The First Great Apostasy

"My heart was filled with sorrow because of the course that JH Kellog is following. And AT Jones is following the same course, and voicing the same sentiments, with a most determined spirit. When a realization of this comes over me, with such force; great sorrow fills my soul."

"I have before me such a revival of the first great apostasy in the heavenly courts, that I am bowed down with an agony that cannot be expressed, It is in Battle Creek that the warnings that are given are entirely disregarded." -- Letter 248, 1906 (to D. H. Kress).

August 1st, 1906l, 1906 Under Hypnotic Power.

-- "God showed me what He would do for Dr. Kellogg if he would take hold of His hand. But he wrenched himself away. At the Berrien Springs meetings [1904] the most precious offers were given him, and when he wrenched himself away I had such agony of heart that it seemed as if soul and body were being rent asunder.

"I have seen Dr. Kellogg exerting a hypnotic influence upon persons, and at such times the arch deceiver was his helper. Those who sustain him are guilty with him. This blindness of understanding is a strange thing in our ranks. In regard to A. T. Jones, he has a theory of truth, which his books express, and he dares not tear up his past experience, which has been published. But he virtually turns away from his former experience by his present course of action. . .

"Dr. Kellogg has had every advantage to make impressions on human minds, and he will improve this to the best of his ability in an effort to destroy confidence in the testimonies. Those associated with him who have upheld him, will have to answer before God for their course of action." -- Letter 258, 1906.

September 30, 1907 Giving Heed to Doctrines of Devils.

"A. T. Jones, Dr. Kellogg, and Elder Tenney are all working under the same
leadership. They are classing themselves with those of whom the apostle writes, 'Some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.' In the case of A. T. Jones I can see the fulfillment of the warnings that were given me regarding him." Letter 306, 1907.

October 1st, 1907 Now in Apostasy.

-- "I want to say to you, Brother and Sister Starr, that the time we have so long anticipated has come.

A. T. Jones has come to the place where he voices the mind and faith of Dr. Kellogg. They have now taken a decided stand against the truth, and special efforts will be made to lead souls away. This apostasy has cost us dearly . . . Warning after warning has been given to these men, but they did not believe the testimonies. Their work against the truth has been marked by deception as was the course of Canright. Many whose sympathies were with Dr. Kellogg, have united with him, and have departed
from the faith." -- Letter 316, 1907.

November 11, 1908, Departed from the Faith.

"I must warn our people against laboring in any line in connection with A. T. Jones. He is one who has departed from the faith, and has given heed to seducing spirits. He knows not what manner of spirit he is of." -- Letter 330, 1908.

November 10 1911 Confession and Rebaptism the Only Way Back

"Elder A. T. Jones, I have given you instruction in straight, clear lines in regard to the perverting influence under which you have placed yourself. Your lips have uttered perverse things. You have denied the clear light of truth, and have linked up with strange elements. I gave you a correct statement in regard to your position, but you went on doing the very things the Lord had warned you not to do. It has been a strange course for one who has been enlightened by the Lord as you have been, but you have acted very much like a man who has lost his bearings.

The question is, Do you think you can still hold your membership in the Seventh-day Adventist Church and go on hurting the influence of this people by the tracts that you publish? You have done a cruel work. "I have warned you in regard to these things. I presented the case as the Lord presented it to me. When your blind eyes are opened, when your spiritual eyesight is restored by the heavenly anointing, you will see that you have a work to do for your own soul, and to undo what you have done to confirm others in unbelief . . .

"We should rejoice greatly if you would be really converted. The Lord will not receive you as a faithful minister, to be trusted with His flock, unless you throw your lot in with His people, to confirm them in the faith--not to rule them according to human ideas. . .

"If you wish to renew your covenant with God by confession and repentance and rebaptism, we shall rejoice with you. When you are converted, your self-sufficiency will disappear, and you will become meek and lowly in heart. When you see and repent of your mistakes,you will be a great blessing in helping others. The destroyer now takes advantage of your self-righteousness to weave into your experience his own ideas and theories. When you are really desirous of uniting with those from whom you have withdrawn yourself, the testimony will be borne that you looked up after you had stepped off the platform on which you had previously stood, and that hands were put beneath your arms, and you and Elder Waggoner were lifted once more on to the platform, standing there with shining countenances and uplifted hands. Has this time come?" -- Letter 104, 1911.

In mid-1907, because of his warfare against the church and its leaders the ministerial credentials of A. T. Jones were withdrawn. In July, 1908, he had an interview with Ellen White, which was not at all satisfactory.

He asked for a hearing at the General Conference session of 1909 held in
Washington. The request was granted, and these meetings were held, at which he stated his case. Elder A. V. Olson, who was present, reports:

"Though not a delegate I was invited to attend the last meeting. Seated on the platform were Brethren C. W. Flaiz, acting chairman, and W. T. Bartlett, of England, acting secretary. At a table below the pulpit sat Brother A. G. Daniells, the General Conference president, at one end and A. T. Jones at the other end. Before final action was taken Brother Daniells arose and made a statement in which he said how much he personally had appreciated the fine, faithful, and efficient services that Brother Jones had rendered the cause during many years of association with us, how we had esteemed and loved him, and how our hearts had been filled with sorrow because of the misunderstanding and conflict that had come in to mar our sweet fellowship, and to separate him from his brethren.

"Then turning to Brother Jones, he made a very tender and touching appeal for him to forget the past and to come back to stand shoulder to shoulder with his brethren in the service of the Lord. He assured him that we all loved him and that we wanted him to go with us in the march toward the kingdom of God. Extending his hand across the table, he said, in a choking voice, 'Come, Brother Jones, come.' At this, Brother Jones arose, started to reach his hand across the table, only to draw it back. Several times, as Brother Daniells continued to plead, saying, with tears in his voice, 'Come, Brother Jones, come!' Brother Jones would hesitatingly reach out his hand part way across the table, and pull it back again. The last time he almost clasped the hand outstretched from the other side, then, suddenly pulled it back, and cried out, 'No! No! and sat down. That was one of the saddest scenes that I have ever witnessed. There were not many dry eyes in the Seminary chapel that afternoon. We all loved Brother Jones, and it grieved us to see him go out into the dark." -- E. G. White Estate Document File No. 53.
 
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Shortly after this, by formal action, he was dropped from the membership roll of the Seventh-day Adventist Church of which for years he had been a member.

Subsequent to working with Dr. Kellogg, A. T. Jones entered upon the publication of The American Sentinel of Religious Liberty, a monthly journal which he issued over a period of several years. In November, 1915, he moved to Washington, D.C., and devoted his time to publishing this paper. He began to attend The People's Church, a colored Seventh-day Adventist church that had broken away from the conference and was pastored by F. H. Seeney. On the invitation of the officers of this church, A. T. Jones participated in the work of the church, and then joined the group. He was granted membership on April 15, 1916.


In February, 1923, Jones returned to Battle Creek for rest and treatment, and was making satisfactory progress until in early May, when he suffered a stroke of apoplexy that caused his death a few days later. Funeral service was conducted in Battle Creek at a funeral home by the Reverend G. E. Fifield. He was buried at Kalamazoo, Michigan. A brief obituary copied from the Battle Creek Enquirer appeared in the Review and Herald of June 28, 1923.

Mrs. Jones ever remained true to the message.

(Statement Prepared by: Arthur L. White, Secretary of the Ellen G. White Estate)
 
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Castaway57

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Are you claiming that Ellen White can not be, "misled"? Let's see what Ellen White has to say about that. Quotes from Ellen G. White

"In regard to infallibility, I NEVER claimed it; God ALONE is Infallible." Selected Messages, Book One, pp 415 and 37
A nice distraction; however thats not whats being discussed here, Whats being discussed is the interview with Dr Kellogg, and where that material came from, and why it is supposedly more reliable than what Mrs White has written. Infact, the OP here denies that Ellen White even said what I have posted, and what he says about this has now been shown to be wrong.

Thats exactly what I have said all along is that she is not Bible; and for the OP to accuse people of not understanding the Word and then quoting Kellog or White is just not right.

To post what Ellen White actually has said/written is not saying she was infallible; it is saying that the OP is totally in error here in what he is saying. If you look a little closer; you will see a number of places on this forum where the OP has accused me of "hatred of the testimonies;" and it's time that people knew the truth about the lies.
 
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Castaway57

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Shortly after this, by formal action, he was dropped from the membership roll of the Seventh-day Adventist Church of which for years he had been a member.
This has been a sad recital. How subtle is Satan in his attacks on those to whom God has given great light. We return to the words of Ellen White penned in 1892:

"It is quite possible that Elder Jones or Waggoner may be overthrown by the temptations of the enemy; but if they should be, this would not prove that they had had no message from God, or that the work that they had done was all a mistake . . . I pray that these men upon whom God has laid the burden of a solemn work, may be able to give the trumpet a certain sound, and honor God at every step, and that their path at every step may grow brighter and brighter until the close of time." -- Letter 24, 1892.

It could have been, but seeds of evil cherished in the hearts of Jones and Waggoner gave the victory to the great adversary.

It should be remembered that while God used the preaching and writings of these two men in a broad reform movement within the church at a time when they were living close to Heaven, there followed in the years associated with their apostasy from the truth, much fruitless preaching and hurtful influences.

A man may be a servant of God at one time in his life and an instrument of evil at another. Thus it was with Jones and Waggoner, the story of whose later years clutches at our hearts and reminds us painfully of Paul's words: 'let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:12). -- Through Crisis to Victory, Appendix B, pp. 302-316.
 
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"Elmshaven," Sanitarium, Calif.
December 3, 1903

Dear Brethren G.C. Tenney and A.T. Jones,-

I am charged with a message for you. Now is the time to do decided work. There must be no daubing the wall with untempered mortar. But you are not half awake. You need to be thoroughly aroused before you can give true instruction to those you are supposed to be helping. Your own hearts need to be worked by the Holy Spirit, else you will not be able men, imbued with a clear sense of what you need, keeping strict guard over yourselves. You need to work deeper, and cleanse you souls most thoroughly from impurity. You are not now prepared to give the trumpet a certain sound. Self, unsanctified self, receives altogether to much respect from you. {BCL 92.1}

Remember that your actions, words, looks, and thoughts are to be carefully guarded, else you will come short. Neither of you are developing as you ought the traits of character that would make you safe guardians of souls. The word of God is to be something more to you than you make it. You need to have done in your hearts the purifying, cleansing, reformatory work of the Spirit of God. {BCL 92.2}

You may repeat the words of life, many, many times, and yet fail to make them a life-saving power to your souls. The eyes of both of you need to be anointed with the heavenly eyesalve, else your words and your example will mislead. When you closely and critically examine yourselves, you will find that you have a work to do for yourselves before you can skillfully apply the gospel remedy to such a man as Dr. Kellogg. {BCL 92.3}

God is in earnest with you, with Dr. Kellogg, and with every one. My brethren, your spiritual welfare is at stake. You both need the cleansing of the refining furnace. Your standing before God is not what it may be through the grace which Christ supplies. You both need to take heed to yourselves, to cleanse your souls from everything that defiles, and to take your position on a much higher plane. {BCL 92.4}

Do not, I beg of you, neglect this word of warning. The salvation of your souls is in peril. Unless your eyes are anointed with the heavenly eyesalve, you will lose the clear discernment that you must have in order to be faithful watchmen, able to discern between good and evil. {BCL 92.5}

You need to eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God. This you must do in order to have the life of Christ. You are not living wholly by the word of God. You do not fully realize what is meant by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of God. When you understand what this means, you will see the need of the crucifixion of self. You will see your need of the pure, ennobling, sanctifying principles of God's Word. {BCL 92.6}
 
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