The Interview with Dr. Kellogg
- Thread starter rainbowinthesky
- Start date
The references you are speaking of are in the document itself.
Your statement is an obscure one to say the least of it.
The only way to find out about the authenticity of a document is first to read it and study it without prejudice whatsoever.
Unless we can do this, we cannot arrive at the truth.
sky
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Castaway57
Born Twice
Where in the document did you get this? What page? There should be no reason to not tell us atleast this much. And like i said; do you actually know what specific person wrote that paragraph I just referenced, and who they wrote it to and why?
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It is recorded in the 1901 General Conference Bulletin. You know who spoke these words at that Conference. He was a servant of God and was recognized from the floor by A.G. Daniells himself who was the chairman and he told the people at that conference that brother Jones had light for the people on organization. Mrs. White was present and she acknowledged that what was presented by that brother on organization was light from Heaven.
These are only a few excerpts.
sky
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Where are you going with this questioning? Anyone who reads the Interview will be able to see for himself.
You are entitled to your opinion.
Let people decide for themselves.
sky
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Castaway57
Born Twice
Tell us then, no name dropping of other Adventist leaders, just tell us who exactly wrote that specific paragraph I cited, who they wrote it to and why please. That should be pretty simple if you know the truth.
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Until we can explain why the president of the General Conference stated in 2010 that the church today was following the instructions given by the Lord at the 1901 G.Conference in regard to organization while Mrs. White stated the very opposite, we are not qualifed to teach our people.
sky
sky
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You mean the following?
"Then this also must be considered: that position, place, never gives authority. Authority qualifies for the place. I will say it again: it must be a watchword for every one in this conference: Position never gives authority... Place, position, never bestows authority. No authority is derived from the place. But authority that a man already has from God, which God has put upon him, will qualify a man for the place to which God calls him; and if he has not that authority before he enters the place, he has not the authority when he is in the place. The view that place gives authority is precisely the principle of papal infallibility. The pope is not infallible before he is elected. Nobody claims that. He is only a cardinal before he is elected; but as soon as he is elected, then he is infallible; then he is inspired by the Holy Spirit because he holds his place. That is the papacy."
You asked: Are you actually aware of who wrote this, to who and why?
I just told you. It was A.T. Jones who was recognized from the floor by the chairman who stated that brother Jones had light from the Lord on organization. This paragraph is found on page 41 of the 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.41, second column half way down.
Brother Jones had not even expected to speak during that conference because he was busy reporting. But A.D. Danielss insisted that he speak on organization.
If we have not done our homework, we will not know what really happened at that Conference. If we do not accept what the Lord said about the 1901 G.Conference, what hope do we have to ever receive any more light?
sky
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Castaway57
Born Twice
Everyone is qualified to teach others what they have personally seen, and heard, and handled, of the Word of life: 1 John 1:1-3
One of the reasons you cant even explain the answer to this yourself is because you have no idea who wrote what to who and why, and wherever you are copying this stuff from, because they dont do it, neither can you.
In the four parts I have just posted above, I have shown both context and references, and will continue to expand on this.
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Castaway57
Born Twice
No. I meant this and you know it. I put it in quotes to make sure there was no mistake:
So who wrote out that statement, who did they write it to, and why and when?
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Why do you talk like that. You know that I am quoting from the General Conference Bulletin of 1901 which I have in my possession. I have also the 1903 General Conference Bulletin here in my house and the 1889, 1893 Bulletins.
sky
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I give references for everything I quote.
So please stop the false allegations.
Or i will report you to the administrator.
sky
So please stop the false allegations.
Or i will report you to the administrator.
sky
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Castaway57
Born Twice
So what you are telling us is that you have those documents, yet you cannot answer the simple question that has been asked of you about that one paragraph?
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Castaway57
Born Twice
You say you want us to examine this document; yet you refuse even this cursory look at it by not answering such simple questions about context and who said what to who and why?
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I just told you. It was A.T. Jones as recorded in the General Conference Bulletin of 1901. Everything I quote thats not from Ellen White from the 1901 G.Conference Bulletin is from A.T. Jones.
You will find all of this on pages 37-42 of the Bulletin, dated April 2, 1901.
sky
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The next lecture brother Jones gave at that conference is found on pages 101-105 of the Bulletin dated April 4, 1901.
No wonder you are confused, you don't have that Bulletin.
As soon as you get hold of a copy of that bulletin you will
see that I have been honest in all of my references.
sky
No wonder you are confused, you don't have that Bulletin.
As soon as you get hold of a copy of that bulletin you will
see that I have been honest in all of my references.
sky
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"God's organization must come from the Head, which is Jesus Christ, the Head of the church; and it reaches to the individual. Now see the step that was taken in General Conference today. I want you to see how certainly that can never stop until it has reached each individual and brought him face to face with God, to stand there alone only with God. There was presented today, and endorsed, an appeal for local self-government in a certain place. Very good. And then it was said here that that was to be adopted in other parts. Very good. And when that district shall be organized there will be a local self-governing district; but the same process must go farther--each conference must be a self-governing local conference, and each church must be a local self-governing church, and each individual must be a local self-governing individual...
But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...
Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...
I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.
_________________
So the statement you are asking about, the first paragraph, is part of everything that is quoted above from p.103 of the 1901 Bulletin, second column. This was A.T. Jones' second lecture on organization which was "light for the people."
sky
But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...
Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...
I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.
_________________
So the statement you are asking about, the first paragraph, is part of everything that is quoted above from p.103 of the 1901 Bulletin, second column. This was A.T. Jones' second lecture on organization which was "light for the people."
sky
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All should be deeply interested in what the servant of the Lord had to say about the 1901 conference. On page 25 of the Bulletin, we read,
"O, my very soul is drawn in these things! Men who have not learned to submit themselves to the control and discipline of God, are not competent to train the youth, to deal with human minds. It is just as much an impossibility for them to do this work as would be for them to make a world. That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle."
On page 83 of the same Bulletin, we read these words:
"This meeting will determine the character of our work in the future. How important that every step taken is under the supervision of God. This work must be carried in a very different manner to what it has been in the past years."
After the conference she wrote these solemn words:
"The result of the last General Conference [1901] has been the greatest, the most terrible, sorrow of my life. No change was made. The spirit that should have been brought into the whole work as the result of that meeting was not brought in because men did not receive the testimonies of the Spirit of God. As they went to their several fields of labor, they did not walk in the light that the Lord had flashed upon their pathway, but carried into their work the wrong principles that had been prevailing in the work at Battle Creek." Manuscript Releases, vol.13,122.3.
Ealier, at the beginning of the Conference, Mrs. White had said:
"I feel a special interest in the movements and decisions that shall be made at this conference regarding the things that should have been done years ago, and especially ten years ago, when we were assembled in conference, and the Spirit and power of God came into our meeting, testifying that God was ready to work for this people if they would come into working order. The brethren assented to the light God had given; but there were those connected with our institutions, especially with the Review and Herald office and the Conference, who brought in elements of unbelief, so that the light that was given was not acted upon. It was assented to, but no special change was made to bring about such a condition of things that the power of God could be revealed among His people. The light then given me was that this people should stand higher than any other people on the face of the whole earth, that they should be a loyal people, a people who would rightly represent truth. The sanctifying power of the truth, revealed in their lives, was to distinguish them from the world.
Year after year the same acknowledgement was made, but the principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work. God gave them clear light as to what they should do and what they should not do, but they departed from that light; and it is a marvel to me that we stand in as much prosperity as we do today. It is because of the great mercy of God, not because of our righteousness, but that His name should not be dishonored in the world." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.23.
At that Conference, brother Jones was recognized from the floor and gave a series of lectures on reorganization which were said to be as "light for the people."
Again, here are the few exerpts which I have quoted earlier, taken directly from the Bulletin which I have with me:
"God's organization must come from the Head, which is Jesus Christ, the Head of the church; and it reaches to the individual. Now see the step that was taken in General Conference today. I want you to see how certainly that can never stop until it has reached each individual and brought him face to face with God, to stand there alone only with God. There was presented today, and endorsed, an appeal for local self-government in a certain place. Very good. And then it was said here that that was to be adopted in other parts. Very good. And when that district shall be organized there will be a local self-governing district; but the same process must go farther--each conference must be a self-governing local conference, and each church must be a local self-governing church, and each individual must be a local self-governing individual.
But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...
Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...
I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.
Now from the 1903 General Conference Bulletin:
"The principle of that testimony that brought us to the present constitution, that was the guiding of the making of the present constitution, is the principle of self-government. Each church, each man, indeed, governs himself, with God, with Christ, as his own personal Head, and with no conference as his head, no church elder as his head, no Union Conference president, or any other, as his head. Jesus Christ alone is his Head; and when these form themselves into a church, Jesus Christ is the Head of that church, and the elder is not." A.T. Jones, 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.153.
"The Conference Committee governs for itself, acts for itself, attends to its own business, and lets other people's business alone. The Union Conference Committee itself is a self-governing committee. It governs itself, not the conference, not any of the churches, nobody in the conference. The General Conference Committee is to be a self-governing committee, not to govern any other conference, or anybody at all but itself. And this Constitution (1903) opens the way for the committee--I do not say that the members intended it--it opens the way for them to encroach and governs somebody besides themselves. What I am after is that we shall have a constitution that shall everlastingly make that thing impossible; and the present Constitution (1901) does it." Idem, p.154.
"O, my very soul is drawn in these things! Men who have not learned to submit themselves to the control and discipline of God, are not competent to train the youth, to deal with human minds. It is just as much an impossibility for them to do this work as would be for them to make a world. That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle."
On page 83 of the same Bulletin, we read these words:
"This meeting will determine the character of our work in the future. How important that every step taken is under the supervision of God. This work must be carried in a very different manner to what it has been in the past years."
After the conference she wrote these solemn words:
"The result of the last General Conference [1901] has been the greatest, the most terrible, sorrow of my life. No change was made. The spirit that should have been brought into the whole work as the result of that meeting was not brought in because men did not receive the testimonies of the Spirit of God. As they went to their several fields of labor, they did not walk in the light that the Lord had flashed upon their pathway, but carried into their work the wrong principles that had been prevailing in the work at Battle Creek." Manuscript Releases, vol.13,122.3.
Ealier, at the beginning of the Conference, Mrs. White had said:
"I feel a special interest in the movements and decisions that shall be made at this conference regarding the things that should have been done years ago, and especially ten years ago, when we were assembled in conference, and the Spirit and power of God came into our meeting, testifying that God was ready to work for this people if they would come into working order. The brethren assented to the light God had given; but there were those connected with our institutions, especially with the Review and Herald office and the Conference, who brought in elements of unbelief, so that the light that was given was not acted upon. It was assented to, but no special change was made to bring about such a condition of things that the power of God could be revealed among His people. The light then given me was that this people should stand higher than any other people on the face of the whole earth, that they should be a loyal people, a people who would rightly represent truth. The sanctifying power of the truth, revealed in their lives, was to distinguish them from the world.
Year after year the same acknowledgement was made, but the principles which exalt a people were not woven into the work. God gave them clear light as to what they should do and what they should not do, but they departed from that light; and it is a marvel to me that we stand in as much prosperity as we do today. It is because of the great mercy of God, not because of our righteousness, but that His name should not be dishonored in the world." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.23.
At that Conference, brother Jones was recognized from the floor and gave a series of lectures on reorganization which were said to be as "light for the people."
Again, here are the few exerpts which I have quoted earlier, taken directly from the Bulletin which I have with me:
"God's organization must come from the Head, which is Jesus Christ, the Head of the church; and it reaches to the individual. Now see the step that was taken in General Conference today. I want you to see how certainly that can never stop until it has reached each individual and brought him face to face with God, to stand there alone only with God. There was presented today, and endorsed, an appeal for local self-government in a certain place. Very good. And then it was said here that that was to be adopted in other parts. Very good. And when that district shall be organized there will be a local self-governing district; but the same process must go farther--each conference must be a self-governing local conference, and each church must be a local self-governing church, and each individual must be a local self-governing individual.
But no man in this world can be a self-governing individual except as God in Christ is his Head, and the man is governed by the power of God. The only self-government, true self-government, in this world is a man standing in the liberty wherewith Jesus Christ has made him free, master of his worst self and living in the divine self, which is Jesus Christ. Then he has met the enmity, the evil, and has it underfoot; and there he stands in the heaven born liberty with which God has made him free, a free, self-governing individual, as God made him to be in the beginning, and as He makes him to be when He makes him again...
Now do you see that this step we took today never can stop short of that? Is not that plain enough? Then, brethren, the thing for each one in this conference to do is to get there just as quickly as possible. Each one, then, must have set up in himself, and must be in himself, a local self-government, to the glory of God. But no man can ever do that, as I have said, except by the power of God in him; and no man can do that and remain a local self-governing man except he stands alone with God, apart from everyone else, and everything else, in the wide universe. Now that does not separate him from all other people. Our truest unity with other people is our whole loneliness with God. Our truest fellowship, our sincerest love, our tenderest sympathy, reaching out to all people is found only in standing absolutely alone, separate from all other things, with God...
I say again, the step taken should never stop until every Seventh-day Adventist is brought face to face with God. And for what shall we be brought to face to face with God? To find our bearings, which we have been exhorted to find. And having found our bearings, then let God in Christ be the Head, and the grand Organizer." A.T. Jones, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, p.103.
Now from the 1903 General Conference Bulletin:
"The principle of that testimony that brought us to the present constitution, that was the guiding of the making of the present constitution, is the principle of self-government. Each church, each man, indeed, governs himself, with God, with Christ, as his own personal Head, and with no conference as his head, no church elder as his head, no Union Conference president, or any other, as his head. Jesus Christ alone is his Head; and when these form themselves into a church, Jesus Christ is the Head of that church, and the elder is not." A.T. Jones, 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.153.
"The Conference Committee governs for itself, acts for itself, attends to its own business, and lets other people's business alone. The Union Conference Committee itself is a self-governing committee. It governs itself, not the conference, not any of the churches, nobody in the conference. The General Conference Committee is to be a self-governing committee, not to govern any other conference, or anybody at all but itself. And this Constitution (1903) opens the way for the committee--I do not say that the members intended it--it opens the way for them to encroach and governs somebody besides themselves. What I am after is that we shall have a constitution that shall everlastingly make that thing impossible; and the present Constitution (1901) does it." Idem, p.154.
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