The Inspiration of Scripture

[FireDragon76]

Do you have evidence Wesley was knowingly misleading his flock because he felt coerced by what exactly? The Anglican inquisition?

I'm not putting Wesley's character on trial, merely elucidating what England was actually like back then. People could not have open discussion of the Scriptures without potential social repurcussions, at the very least, as we are accustomed to do today (in fact, John Wesley's open air preaching was controversial at the time). They were just beginning to enter out of a period of religious persecution of non-conformists, after all, and social sanctions still existed to some degree against those who did not agree with the state established religion in terms of doctrine. So "Anglican Inquisition" is not far from the truth.

 

[redleghunter]

It's rather prejudicial to dismiss scholarship just because somebody is atheist.

I did not see any “scholarship” at the link.

 

[redleghunter]

Spiritual disciplines, or Means of Grace:
Reading, meditating and studying the scriptures, prayer, fasting, regularly attending worship, healthy living, and sharing our faith with others, regularly share in the sacraments, Christian conferencing (accountability to one another), and Bible study, doing good works, visiting the sick, visiting those in prison, feeding the hungry, and giving generously to the needs of others, seeking justice, ending oppression and discrimination, and addressing the needs of the poor.

The very actions we see in the NT Church. John Wesley was not reinventing the wheel.

 

[redleghunter]

My faith is not in danger of being shattered by an atheist site.

Yet you used it to “prove” contradictions in the Bible. This is shameful.

Besides, who better to point out the inconsistencies than someone who is determined to find as many as possible vs. someone who would prefer to find none and thus pretend there are none?

Why not just contract out Satan to teach apologetics to Sunday school teens?

 

[bekkilyn]

I think he was human just like the rest of us, and felt pressures just like we do to fit in in his country and his church, and likely even to a greater degree. I'm not an expert on Wesley, though, but I trust that the Methodist church does have genuine expertise on interpreting Wesley's teachings

But now that you mention it, there has always been the story that he was secretly ordained as a bishop by a Greek bishop because to be ordained anything else but Protestant at the time brought a death sentence. So who knows.



Equating loving the Bible with loving Christ seems misguided. I'm not saying that to put down the Scriptures arbitrarily, but as a Lutheran, the Bible will always be a derived authority compared to the person of Jesus Christ. This is something even educated LCMS Lutheran theologians agree with, traditionally, and is not just a liberal stance. Our religion is Christ, we love the Bible because in it we find Christ. But the Bible itself is NOT Christ.

I don't believe that Wesley was speaking to protect himself. He had a very high regard for scripture and was very sincere in considering it of primary (NOT sola or only) authority, but he definitely did not consider the bible to be God. Wesley would not elevate the bible over Christ or make claims that Christ can only be found in the bible alone.

In fact, Wesley got banned from preaching in most of the Anglican churches once he started preaching grace through faith alone (his journal gets pretty humorous as he writes things about preaching in a church and then later he was "to preach no more" there, so he wasn't at all afraid of speaking his mind and proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ. So George Whitfield introduced him to preaching in the fields (which was practically unheard of for an Anglican priest at the time) and so he was just going around preaching everywhere from that point on, including standing on his own father's grave to preach when they wouldn't let him in to preach in his hometown of Epworth. Wesley was involved in a lot of controversy in his day within his own church, but if he had ever been in danger of being defrocked, it would have been for preaching grace and not due to his views on scripture. It was never his plan for Methodism to become a separate denomination and when it did become a separate denomination, it wasn't due to major doctrinal differences. In fact, nearly all of the Articles of religion remained the same. Wesley removed three (I think) of them because they wouldn't have pertained to American Methodists.

However, I fully agree with you that our religion is Christ. Christ-centered, not bible-centered. Christianity existed long before there was a Christian bible and Christianity was based on the living and resurrected Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

He is everywhere and can speak to us in many different ways.

I can fly a Swedenborgian 747 through that.

If he did not, then having conversations with him through prayer would be pretty useless, as one example.

We have to go outside of the God revealed in Holy Scriptures to have meaningful prayer?

“And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.”

The above is in the Epistle to the Ephesians chapter 6.

“So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.”

That’s in the NT as well.

 

[redleghunter]

However, I fully agree with you that our religion is Christ. Christ-centered, not bible-centered. Christianity existed long before there was a Christian bible and Christianity was based on the living and resurrected Christ.

How do you know this?

 

[redleghunter]

Of course, Scripture is infallible when it is interpreted through the authority of Christ's Church.

I’ll ask again. Where can I find your statement as truth.

 

[FireDragon76]

As in what?

The general Greco-Roman approach to truth was based on utilitarianism and hedonistic pragmatism (just look at Pliate's cynical response to Jesus, "What is truth?" ( John 18:38 ) ). They took the Gospel and built up an edifice to justify themselves collectively, including their cultural and philosophical assumptions... many of which persisted throughout modernity. Challenging those assumptions is not challenging the Gospel.

This is a good introduction to a series Dr. Wagschall did criticizing this whole approach to the Christian religion:

So Wrong for So Long? (The Problem with Tradition Part One)

 

[redleghunter]

Wow John Wesley was spot on here:

"I read Mr. Jenyns's admired tract, on the "Internal Evidence of the Christian Religion." He is undoubtedly a fine writer; but whether he is a Christian, Deist, or Atheist, I cannot tell. If he is a Christian, he betrays his own cause by averring, that "all Scripture is not given by inspiration of God; but the writers of it were sometimes left to themselves, and consequently made some mistakes." Nay, if there be any mistakes in the Bible, there may as well be a thousand. If there be one falsehood in that book, it did not come from the God of truth."

--From the Journal: Wednesday July 24, 1776.

 

[bekkilyn]

What’s to cherry pick? Those are firm statements unless of course you have quotes or sermons which contradict his own teachings?

Well I am glad you are learning more about Wesley at least. Perhaps with further reading and study of his writings in full, you will eventually learn more about the context of which he's using those "firm statements" rather than through 21st century non-Wesleyan lens to "prove" the usage of a definition that didn't exist until long after his death.

 

[godenver1]

The Bible is inspired by God. What does this mean?

Simply put - "What the Bible says, God says."

Some say that the Bible is inspired, but they are not comfortable saying that the Bible is the very words of God. They have some looser, stranger view of inspiration.

What the Bible says, God says. Can we give this a hearty "Amen"?

Yes, as a confessional Lutheran, I affirm that the Bible is the inerrant and inspired word of God.

Of course, most Christians do, until Jesus says "this is my body" or "baptism now saves you" in which case God apparently means the exact opposite of what His word actually says. Weird.

 

[redleghunter]

Well I am glad you are learning more about Wesley at least. Perhaps with further reading and study of his writings in full, you will eventually learn more about the context of which he's using those "firm statements" rather than through 21st century non-Wesleyan lens to "prove" the usage of a definition that didn't exist until long after his death.

Wesley is neither being ambiguous nor cryptic. These are clear proclamations needing no interpretation.

I’ve studied Wesley. Especially his view on imputed righteousness.

 

[redleghunter]

The process man, the process.

The process of picking and choosing psalms and Scripture readings to run a Mass?

 

[bekkilyn]

The very actions we see in the NT Church. John Wesley was not reinventing the wheel.

Never said he was, but that these disciplines are some of the various ways through which we can hear God's voice. It's not limited to study of scripture alone.

 

[bekkilyn]

Yet you used it to “prove” contradictions in the Bible. This is shameful.

Why not just contract out Satan to teach apologetics to Sunday school teens?

If the contradictions are there (and they are there), then why would it be shameful to point them out when arguing against a false view that something or someone other than God himself is infallible? Now ask me to point out contradictions in God himself and there would be no list to produce.

 

[redleghunter]

Never said he was, but that these disciplines are some of the various ways through which we can hear God's voice. It's not limited to study of scripture alone.

Who said study alone? We are to meditate on the Scriptures. When we worship as a body the Scriptures are part of our worship of the pastor is preaching from expository exaltation.

 

[redleghunter]

If the contradictions are there (and they are there), then why would it be shameful to point them out when arguing against a false view that something or someone other than God himself is infallible? Now ask me to point out contradictions in God himself and there would be no list to produce.

Because there are no contradictions.

 

[bekkilyn]

I can fly a Swedenborgian 747 through that.


We have to go outside of the God revealed in Holy Scriptures to have meaningful prayer?

“And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.”

The above is in the Epistle to the Ephesians chapter 6.

“So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.”

That’s in the NT as well.

The same God revealed in scriptures is also revealed to us in prayer and also revealed to us through the other means of grace if only we but listen for his voice. There is only one God and he is living and active today and is not withdrawn from us. Meaningful prayer does not mean praying to a book but praying to, conversing with, and listening to a living and active God who is in relationship with us.

 

[bekkilyn]

How do you know this?

It's not about what I know but about who I have decided to trust. Jesus the Christ.