The insecurity of Calvinism

DeaconDean

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It seems some posts from my site have been referenced. I would strongly suggests you read through them carefully because they are not written by me but a well respected Biblical scholar who has a very strong command of the Greek language. He does not claim certain things arbitrarily, but backs them up with careful research just as scholar should. Here are some to consider:

From an interaction with Greek scholar Dan Wallace:

Some Very Important Comments on Acts 13:48 From An Arminian Perspective

(By the way, I would mention that Wallace saw Absaciano's full response and, to my knowledge, has not challenge him on his claims about the Greek in Acts 13. Instead, he simply replied that he had no intentions of misrepresenting the corporate election view and intends to look into it more based on Abasciano's response)

Part one of an interaction with James White:

Brian Abasciano, James White’s Faulty Treatment of the Greek and Context of Acts 13:48

Part two of an interaction with James White:

Brian Abasciano, “A Reply to James White Concerning His Faulty Treatment of the Greek and Context of Acts 13:48”

There is no doubt that the rendering "to set in line/set in position/dispose" is a legitimate way to understand the Grammar, and a way that far better fits the context. As was mentioned above, this passage is in no way a slam dunk for Calvinism.

Whoever said it was?

I have looked at the Greek MSS, (many are available on-line.)

I have my Hebrew/Greek/English Interlieaner. And my Greek lexicon. (not to mentioin Kittles Theological Dictionary of the New Testament). I would add also that make use of www.perseus.tufts.com, their lexicons and Greek shows the morphology back to Attic Greek, (4-300 BC) The same Greek of the LXX. Not to mention links to various Greek texts like Platoe, and others that show tasso was indeed used in this same fashion way back when.

And the do agree with me.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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There are so many things God ordained that didn't happen because of man's sin. An example is that God ordained Saul King to get rid of the philistines, yet because of his sin, David was ordained instead for Sauls mission.

Here is where you and I will part ways.

"For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" -Isa. 14:27 (KJV)

"Thirdly, God is immutable in His counsel. His will never varies. Perhaps some are ready to object that we ought to read the following: "And it repented the Lord that He had made man" (Gen. 6:6). Our first reply is, Then do the Scriptures contradict themselves? No, that cannot be. Numbers 23:19 is plain enough: "God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent." So also in 1 Samuel 15:19, "The strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man, that He should repent." The explanation is very simple. When speaking of Himself. God frequently accommodates His language to our limited capacities. He describes Himself as clothed with bodily members, as eyes, ears, hands, etc. He speaks of Himself as "waking" (Ps. 78:65), as "rising early" (Jer. 7:13); yet He neither slumbers nor sleeps. When He institutes a change in His dealings with men, He describes His course of conduct as "repenting."

Yes, God is immutable in His counsel. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (Rom. 11:29). It must be so, for "He is in one mind, and who can turn Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth" (Job 23:13). Change and decay in all around we see, may He who changeth not abide with thee. God’s purpose never alters. One of two things causes a man to change his mind and reverse his plans: want of foresight to anticipate everything, or lack of power to execute them. But as God is both omniscient and omnipotent there is never any need for Him to revise His decrees. No. "The counsel of the Lord standeth forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations" (Ps. 33:11). Therefore do we read of "the immutability of His counsel" (Heb. 6:17).

Herein we may perceive the infinite distance which separates the highest creature from the Creator. Creaturehood and mutability are correlative terms. If the creature was not mutable by nature, it would not be a creature; it would be God. By nature we tend to nothing, as we came from nothing. Nothing stays our annihilation but the will and sustaining power of God. None can sustain himself a single moment. We are entirely dependent on the Creator for every breath we draw. We gladly own with the Psalmist Thou "holdest our soul in life" (Ps. 66:9). The realization of this ought to make us lie down under a sense of our own nothingness in the presence of Him "in Whom we live and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28)."

Arthur W. Pink, The Attributes of God, Chapter VII, The Immutability of God

I don't think you realize what you just said.

Contrary to scripture, man is able to frustrate God's will.

"Fourth, they are absolute and unconditional. The execution of them is not suspended upon any condition which may, or may not be, performed. In every instance where God his decreed an end, He has also decreed every means to that end. The One who decreed the salvation of His elect also decreed to work faith in them (2 Thess. 2:13). "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" (Isa. 46:10): but that could not be, if His counsel depended upon a condition which might not be performed. But God "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11).

Side by side with the immutability and invincibility of God’s decrees, Scripture plainly teaches that man is a responsible creature and answerable for his actions. And if our thoughts are formed from God’s Word the maintenance of the one will not lead to the denial of the other. That there is a real difficulty in defining where the one ends and the other begins, is freely granted. This is ever the case where there is a conjunction of the Divine and the human. Real prayer is indited by the Spirit, yet it is also the cry of a human heart. The Scriptures are the inspired Word of God, yet were they written by men who were something more than machines in the hand of the Spirit. Christ is both God and man. He is Omniscient, yet "increased in wisdom" (Luke 2:52). He was Almighty, yet was "crucified through weakness" (2 Cor. 13:4). He was the Prince of life, yet He died. High mysteries are these, yet faith receives them unquestioningly.
It has often been pointed out in the past that every objection made against the eternal decrees of God applies with equal force against His eternal foreknowledge:

Whether God has decreed all things that ever come to pass or not, all that own the being of a God, own that He knows all things beforehand. Now, it is self-evident that if He knows all things beforehand, He either doth approve of them or doth not approve of them; that is, He either is willing they should be, or He is not willing they should be. But to will that they should be is to decree them. (Jonathan Edwards).

Finally, attempt to assume and then contemplate the opposite. To deny the Divine decrees would be to predicate a world and all its concerns regulated by undesigned chance or blind fate. Then what peace, what assurance, what comfort would there be for our poor hearts and minds? What refuge would there be to fly to in the hour of need and trial? None at all. There would be nothing better than the black darkness and abject horror of atheism. O my reader, how thankful should we be that everything is determined by infinite wisdom and goodness! What praise and gratitude are due unto God for His Divine decrees. It is because of them that "we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose" (Rom. 8:28). Well may we exclaim, "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom he glory forever. Amen" (Rom 11:36)."

Arthur W. Pink, The Attributes of God, Chapter II, The Decrees of God

Like I said, here, you and I will part ways.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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There are those who disagree with the KJV rendering of "ordain" in Acts 13:48.

There are some 10 uses of tasso being parsed to mean "ordain" in ancient Greek literature:

"2. ordain, prescribe, “τ. τὰ περὶ τὰ τέκναArist.Pol.1262b6: abs., νόμος οὕτω τ. Pl.La.199a; “οὕτω τ. λόγοςArist.EN1119b17:—Pass., “τὸ ταττόμενονAr.Ec.766; “τὸ ταχθὲν τελεῖνS.Aj.528; “τὰ τεταγμέναX.Cyr.1.2.5, etc.; τὰ τετ. ἄγειν the things appointed to them for conveying, ib.8.5.4; “τῆς τροφῆς βελτίστη τέτακται τοῖς ἐλευθέροιςArist.GA744b18; ἐν τῷ τεταγμένῳ εἶναι to be fulfilling one's obligations, IG12.57.47, 22.116.48, X. Cyr.6.2.37."

It is so rendered in Plato:

"in the operations of war; whence the law ordains that the general shall give orders to the seer, and not the seer to the general. May we say this, Laches?

Laches
We may.
Socrates
Well now, do you agree with us, Nicias, that the same knowledge has comprehension of the same things, whether future, present, or past?
Nicias
I do, for that is my own opinion, Socrates.
Socrates
And courage, my good friend, is knowledge of"

Plato. Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 8 translated by W.R.M. Lamb. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1955.

It is so rendered in Aristophanes. Aristophanes Comoediae, ed. F.W. Hall and W.M. Geldart, vol. 2. F.W. Hall and W.M. Geldart. Oxford. Clarendon Press, Oxford. 1907.

So rendered in Sophocles. The Ajax of Sophocles. Edited with introduction and notes by Sir Richard Jebb. Sir Richard Jebb. Cambridge. Cambridge University Press. 1893.

So rendered in Xenophon. Xenophontis opera omnia, vol. 4. Oxford, Clarendon Press. 1910 (repr. 1970).

So rendered in 5 times in the writings of Aristotle: Arist.Pol.1262b6, Arist.EN1119b17, Arist.GA744b18, IG12.57.47, 22.116.48.

The other uses for "tasso" are in regards to military terms such as: to draw up in order of battle, form, array, marshal: (cf. Herodotus, with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920.)

It can be rendered to "post to a station": (cf. Herodotus, with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920. Or if you will: Euripides. The Complete Greek Drama, edited by Whitney J. Oates and Eugene O'Neill, Jr. in two volumes. 2. The Phoenissae, translated by E. P. Coleridge. New York. Random House. 1938.)

It can be rendered: "appoint to any service, military or civil, the latter being metaph. from the former,": (cf. Xenophon. Xenophon in Seven Volumes, 1 and 2. Carleton L. Brownson. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA; William Heinemann, Ltd., London. vol. 1:1918; vol. 2: 1921.)

It can be rendered appoint or order one to do or be. (cf. Xenophon. Xenophon in Seven Volumes, 3. Carleton L. Brownson. Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA; William Heinemann, Ltd., London. 1922.)

It can be rendered assign to a duty or class of dutiful persons. (cf. Demosthenes. Demosthenes with an English translation by C. A. Vince, M. A. and J. H. Vince, M.A. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1926.)

It can be rendered place in a certain order or relative position. (cf. Herodotus, with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920.)

It can also be rendered to mean to lay down a rule. (cf. Plato. Platonis Opera, ed. John Burnet. Oxford University Press. 1903.)

It can also be rendered as to "access taxes, or payments. (cf. Andocides. Minor Attic Orators in two volumes 1, Antiphon Andocides, with an English translation by K. J. Maidment, M.A. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1968.)

It can also be rendered as to "impose punishments". (cf. Aristophanes. Aristophanes Comoediae, ed. F.W. Hall and W.M. Geldart, vol. 1. F.W. Hall and W.M. Geldart. Oxford. Clarendon Press, Oxford. 1907.)

I went to great lengths here just to prove that ancient Greek supports a number of renderings/meanings including a rendering that supports "ordain". And it does agree with the principle in Acts 13:48.

Like I said, you may not like it, but I have proven my point. Those people spoken of in Acts 13:48, were "ordained" by God. It was His act, His decree.

"which is God's act, and is an eternal one; is sovereign, irrespective, and unconditional; relates to particular persons, and is sure and certain in its effect: it is an ordination, not to an office, nor to the means of grace, but to grace and glory itself; to a life of grace which is eternal, and to a life of glory which is for ever; and which is a pure gift of God, is in the hands of Christ, and to which his righteousness gives a title: and ordination to it shows it to be a blessing of an early date;"

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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From an article "Who hardened Pharaohs Heart?"

(BTW: this also has underlying meanings for the Sovereignty of God, so if you disagree, just pass this post by)

"The reason rational, honest people would reject Calvinism’s claim that God arbitrarily (i.e., for His own sovereign reasons) rejects some people, or overrides their free will, is because they recognize that a perfect God, i.e., One Who is infinite in all of His attributes (including justice, fairness, and impartiality), would not do so. God cannot be just, while unjustly rejecting some people. God cannot be God, and yet conduct Himself in an ungodly manner. Even the biggest sinner, who has violated his conscience repeatedly, and has dulled his spiritual sensibilities, has enough sense to comprehend the principle of being fair—even if he chooses not to treat people fairly.

Turning to the book of Exodus, most Bible readers must admit that they were at least slightly startled the first time they read about God hardening Pharaoh’s heart, and then His punishing Pharaoh for that same hard-heartedness. In dealing with these allegations, three distinct declarations are made with regard to the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. First, the text states that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart (7:3; 9:12; 10:1,20,27; 11:10; 14:4,8), and the hearts of the Egyptians (14:17). Second, it is said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (8:15,32; 9:34), that he refused to humble himself (10:3), and that he was stubborn (13:15). Third, the text uses the passive form to indicate that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, without giving any indication as to the source (7:13,14,22; 8:19; 9:7,35). The questions that arise from this state of affairs are: (1) did God harden Pharaoh on some occasions, while Pharaoh hardened himself on others? (2) Did God do all the hardening of Pharaoh, with the references to Pharaoh hardening himself being the result of God forcing him to do so against his own will? (3) Are all three declarations given in the text actually parallel expressions that mean the same thing? (4) Are the three declarations distinct from one another in their meaning, but all true in their own respects? Is the God of the Bible an unjust, cruel Being?

In his copious work on biblical figures of speech, E.W. Bullinger listed several ways that the Hebrew and Greek languages used verbs to mean something other than their strict, literal usage. He listed several verses that show that the languages “used active verbs to express the agent’s design or attempt to do anything, even though the thing was not actually done” (1898, p. 821). To illustrate, in discussing the Israelites, Deuteronomy 28:68 states: “Ye shall be sold (i.e., put up for sale) unto your enemies…and no man shall buy you.” The translators of the New King James Version recognized the idiom and rendered the verse, “you shall be offered for sale.” The text clearly indicated that they would not be sold, because there would be no buyer, yet the Hebrew active verb for “sold” was used. In the New Testament, a clear example of this type of usage is found in 1 John 1:10, which states, “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him [God—KB/DM] a liar.” No one can make God a liar, but the attempt to deny sin is the equivalent of attempting to make God a liar, which is rendered with an active verb as if it actually happened. Verbs, therefore, can have idiomatic usages that may convey something other than a strict, literal meaning.

With that in mind, Bullinger’s fourth list of idiomatic verbs deals with active verbs that “were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do” (p. 823, emp. in orig.). To illustrate, in commenting on Exodus 4:21, Bullinger stated: “ ‘I will harden his heart (i.e., I will permit or suffer his heart to be hardened), that he shall not let the people go.’ So in all the passages which speak of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. As is clear from the common use of the same Idiom in the following passages” (1968, p. 823). He then listed Jeremiah 4:10, “ ‘Lord God, surely thou hast greatly deceived this people’: i.e., thou hast suffered this People to be greatly deceived, by the false prophets….’ ” Ezekiel 14:9 is also given as an example of this type of usage: “ ‘If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet’: i.e., I have permitted him to deceive himself.” James MacKnight, in a lengthy section on biblical idioms, agrees with Bullinger’s assessment that in Hebrew active verbs can express permission and not direct action. This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh’s heart to be hardened.

A second equally legitimate explanation for the Exodus text is that the allusions to God hardening Pharaoh’s heart are a form of figurative speech, very closely associated with metaphor, known as “metonymy,” where one name or word is employed for another. For example, when we speak of “reading Shakespeare,” we mean that we read his writings or plays. God hardening Pharaoh’s heart would be “metonymy of the subject,” that is, the subject is announced, while some property or circumstance belonging to it is meant. Specifically, under this form of the figure, “[a]n action is sometimes said to have been accomplished, when all that is meant by it is that an occasion was given” (Dungan, 1888, p. 287; cf. Bullinger, 1898, p. 570).

The Bible is replete with examples that illustrate this figure of speech. John reported that “Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John” (John 4:1). In reality, Jesus did not personally baptize anyone (John 4:2). But His teaching and influence caused it to be done. Jesus, the subject, is mentioned, but it is the circumstance of His influence that is intended. His teaching was responsible for people being baptized.

Another instance of metonymy of the subject, closely aligned with the example of Pharaoh in Exodus, is the occasion of the conversion of Lydia, the businesswoman from Thyatira. The text states that the “Lord opened her heart” (Acts 16:14). However, the specific means by which God achieved this action was the preaching of Paul. God’s Word, spoken through Paul, created within her a receptive and responsive mind. In like fashion, Jesus is said to have preached to Gentiles as well as to the antediluvian population of Noah’s day (Ephesians 2:17; 1 Peter 3:19). Of course, Jesus did neither—directly. Rather, He operated through agents—through Paul in the first case and through Noah in the latter. Similarly, Nathan accused king David: “You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword” (2 Samuel 12:9). In reality, David sent a letter to his general ordering him to arrange battle positions where Uriah would be more vulnerable to enemy fire. On the basis of metonymy of the subject, David, the subject, is said to have done something that, in actuality, he simply arranged for others to do.

In the case of Pharaoh, “God hardened Pharaoh’s heart” in the sense that God provided the circumstances and the occasion for Pharaoh to be forced to make a decision. God sent Moses to place His demands before Pharaoh. Moses merely announced God’s instructions. God even accompanied His Word with miracles—to confirm the divine origin of the message (cf. Mark 16:20). Pharaoh made up his own mind to resist God’s demands. Of his own accord, he stubbornly refused to comply. Of course, God provided the occasion for Pharaoh to demonstrate his unyielding attitude. If God had not sent Moses, Pharaoh would not have been faced with the dilemma of whether to release the Israelites. So God was certainly the instigator and initiator. But He was not the author of Pharaoh’s defiance.

Notice that in a very real sense, all four of the following statements are true: (1) God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (2) Moses hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (3) the words that Moses spoke hardened Pharaoh’s heart; (4) Pharaoh hardened his own heart. All four of these observations are accurate, depicting the same truth from different perspectives. In this sense, God is responsible for everything in the Universe, i.e., He has provided the occasion, the circumstances, and the environment in which all things (including people) operate. But He is not guilty of wrong in so doing. From a quick look at a simple Hebrew idiom, it is clear that God did not unjustly or directly harden Pharaoh’s heart. God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), He does not act unjustly (Psalms 33:5), and He has always allowed humans to exercise their free moral agency (Deuteronomy 30:19). God, however, does use the wrong, stubborn decisions committed by rebellious sinners to further His causes (Isaiah 10:5-11). In the case of Pharaoh’s hardened heart, God can be charged with no injustice, and the Bible can be charged with no contradiction. Humans were created with free moral agency and are culpable for their own actions."

Who Hardened Pharaoh's Heart", by Dave Miller, Ph.D., Kyle Butt, M.Div.

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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zoidar

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Read the text brother. It says plainly: "ordain/appointed" to eternal life.

Yes, but even so, it's not certain they reap eternal life in the end.

Have you read about Saul? He was crowned king, he was God's elect, appointed to eternal life. He was chosen to get rid of the Philistines ...

"Now a day before Saul’s coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying, “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines."
/1 sam 9:15-16

Did that happen?


Acts 22:10
"And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed (tássō) for you to do.'

Could Paul have done something else? Yes he could, then what had been appointed for Paul never would have happened.


The NT warns over and over again how the elect must stay on path to be saved. But calvinists still believe in "perseverance of the saints". The warnings then are totally unnecessary.


There is a battle going on. If we want to win this battle we have to walk with Christ. Election means practically nothing to me. Why? Because my assurance doesn't come from being one of the elect. My assurance comes from the cross. Jesus sweat blood for me, he took my punishment, he got nailed, got crucified for me. That's where I find comfort, in his LOVE. And how do I know he LOVES me, because he shed his blood for all men. That is how I get assurance of his LOVE, and that is how I know he will keep me till the end, because of that LOVE.
 
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zoidar

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From an article "Who hardened Pharaohs Heart?"

I can tell you who hardened the pharaohs heart. Exodus 8:15 tells us:

But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, HE hardened his heart and did not listen to them

You know when it say's that God hardened his heart I believe it's a way of expression. I could say things like that too: "Man, what a good workout God gave me." Is that what I mean that God gave me a good workout? No it's not. I mean just that I put much effort into my workout."

I think what the bible is saying is that God LET the pharaoh harden his heart.
 
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DeaconDean

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Just one chapter before yours, we read:

"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt." -Ex. 7:3 (KJV)

Have you read about Saul? He was crowned king, he was God's elect, appointed to eternal life. He was chosen to get rid of the Philistines ...

You forget, God "chose" not ordained/elected Saul because of the cry of Israel. (cf. 1 Sam 8:5)

Acts 22:10
"And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Get up and go on into Damascus, and there you will be told of all that has been appointed (tássō) for you to do.'

Could Paul have done something else. Yes he could, then what had been appointed for Paul never would have happened.

The fact is, Paul did disobey and done what he wanted to prior to Acts 22. (cf. Acts 21:4,11)

And because of Paul's actions, God took full use of it and "appointed" duties for Paul, namely to bear witness in Rome.

I must say, you fail to recognize the difference between "ordain" and "appoint".

The Gentiles in Acts 13:48 were "ordained" to eternal life, whereas Paul was "assigned/appointed to duties" in Acts 22:10.

The NT warns over and over again how the elect must stay on path to be saved. But calvinists still believe in "perseverance of the saints". The warnings then are totally unnecessary.

"P"-Perseverance of the Saints, is a different subject.

All you have shown is that you will not accept the evidence. The Gentiles that were preached to were "ordained" to what?

Scripture says "eternal life". And because they were, they believed.

Friend, eternal life is not eternal if it can be gained in the morning, lost by noontime, and re-gained in the afternoon.

No Christian in the world could ever say they were saved let alone have "eternal life". At best, all they could say is that at any one moment, they may or may not, be in a state of grace. And even that takes away your being able to look back and point to the moment you repented. accepted, and believed. That, is not assurance.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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zoidar

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"Those who believe are described as those who were ordained to eternal life. The phrase indicates that not all the Gentiles in the town believed the Gospel. It could be taken in the sense that God had predestined certain of them to believe (cf. Acts 16:14;18:10). But it could also refer to those who had already put their trust in God according to the Old Testament revelation of his grace and were enrolled in his people..." (pg. 231)

This was very interesting. Thank you!
 
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zoidar

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What I am certain of is not election. What I am certain of is that Jesus died for all men and wants all men to be saved. I'm certain that whoever put his/her trust him will be saved. I'm certain that God's LOVE for all men is so BIG that he sacrificed his own Son that everyone can be saved through him. I'm certain that the sacrifice of God is an universal sacrifice for mankind. I love you Jesus :)
 
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zoidar

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Look DD. God says: "Now a day before Saul’s coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying, “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines."
/1 sam 9:15-16

"he WILL deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines."

It did not happen even God said it WILL be done. Why because of sin. Even if it's not choosing for salvation, you see what God says will happen, not necessarly happens. It's the same with election.

God is not a box of rules. God is a person. He does not work in a box.
 
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zoidar

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The question maybe is less about theology but more about what we want to believe about God? I think you can make the bible calvinistic, or you can make it arminian, or lutheran etc. What do you want to believe about God who is ALL GOOD, ALL MERCIFUL, ALL RIGHTEOUS, ALL LOVE?
 
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zoidar

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Just one chapter before yours, we read:

"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt." -Ex. 7:3 (KJV)

Sure, but how? By letting the pharaoh harden his own heart.
 
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DeaconDean

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Look DD. God says: "Now a day before Saul’s coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying, “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines."
/1 sam 9:15-16

"he WILL deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines."

It did not happen even God said it WILL be done. Why because of sin. Even if it's not choosing for salvation, you see what God says will happen, not necessarly happens. It's the same with election.

God is not a box of rules. God is a person. He does not work in a box.

Lets take what you said, to its most logical end.

Taking you proof text, "as is", God is not God. In fact, there is no God.

What you have just said to me is man, in his sinful self, can frustrate, override God's will.

God is not God who set the boundaries of the oceans,, who causes the wind to blow where ever it wants.

God does not sit on a throne and rule.

Man, in his self, can overthrow God's intent, and plans.

That is what you just said.

But Saul did:

"So Saul took the kingdom over Israel, and fought against all his enemies on every side, against Moab, and against the children of Ammon, and against Edom, and against the kings of Zobah, and against the Philistines: and whithersoever he turned himself, he vexed them." -1 Sam 14;47 (KJV)

But in the end, it don't matter because God is a weak God. Man can frustrate His plans.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Sure, but how? By letting the pharaoh harden his own heart.

Was it not God's doing?

"I will harden Pharaoh's heart" -Ex. 7:3.

But like I said, so what. God is a weak God.

I don't know why anyone would even come to Him.

Man has more power than God because man in his sins, can frustrate God.

God Bless (Or should that be Man Bless?)

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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No man can't. But God is LETTING us choose.

That is not what you said!

It did not happen even God said it WILL be done. Why because of sin.

And I showed you it did.

Cf. 1 Sam. 14:47

According to what you said:

"It did not happen even God said it WILL be done."

Saul was able to frustrate God's plan.

Saul's eventual downfall was a direct disobedience to kill "Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have ". -1 Sam 15:3

What did Saul do instead?

"And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly." -1 Sam. 15:8-9 (KJV)

You said "It did not happen"

I showed you it did.

Like I said, we'll part ways.
 
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DeaconDean

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No it was man's hardening of his heart. God let him do it and used it.

So...you say scripture lies here?

Moses records for us that God said "I will harden his heart".

You say He didn't.

Your verse is from chapter 8, mine from chapter 7.

Somebody is lying.

Moses?

God?

Scripture?

Hum...

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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