The insecurity of Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

Asserting it does not equal scriptural support.

You want scriptural support that we all started out in sin as enemies of God?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Still waiting.

I hear you brother. I just have to leave for work in 15 minutes so I can't look up the scripture now. I will be doing so.

 

[ToBeLoved]

..

 

[DarthNeo]

God REVEALS and man is RESPONSIBLE for his CHOICE...

Romans 1:18-23 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Unbelief and Its Consequences

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident ***within them***; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, ***have been clearly seen***, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 ***For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks(this was their CHOICE)***, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

 

[Hammster]

You want scriptural support that we all started out in sin as enemies of God?

No, I want scriptural support that we all started of as goats.

 

[sdowney717]

It's not Jesus that can't find his sheep, it's we who hardens our heart in sin and turn away from him. Then that sheep will no longer be a sheep but a goat.

So you believe in evolution? One type of animal turns into another type?
Gen 1
24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

However in the natural order of creation, kinds don't mix or turn into other kinds of creatures, the same with spiritual things. Those in Christ are new creations, created according to righteousness and holiness, which is another reason why the saved are never lost.

If someone HAS a hundred sheep....

 

[sdowney717]

Only the sheep hear the voice of Christ's call and follow Him. And He gives them eternal life. So these 'sheep' were His before they followed Christ, (predestined and foreknown by the Father )
John 10, Jesus clearly tells us why some believe and why some do not believe in Him.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

 

[DeaconDean]

So the "IF" in Matt 18 is just to be blot out because Luke says "When". I believe in both verses. I believe IF he finds his sheep there will be great joy, and that will be "WHEN" he finds it.

You gotta love the "if" word here.

"IF he finds his sheep"

That right there says that there is a limit on God's knowledge.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Good point. In Calvinism, if Jesus does not go and get the lost sheep (notice a lost sheep is still a sheep), than that person is not even a sheep anymore (because Christ does not bring them back) but is in that theology a goat.

Here I must point out, was that person ever truly saved to begin with?

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 Jn. 2:19 (KJV)

The same thing is said in the Parable of the sower.

Here Jesus mentions four classes, "way side", "stony", "thorns", and the "good".

In the first three classes, they seem to be real, they seem to be genuine. But, when the fowls came, or the sun came up, or the thorns choked they, they were shown for what they were.

So of the first three classes, were they really and truly saved to begin with?

Not according to 1 Jn. 2:19.

John L. Dagg teaches:

"Final apostasy, when it does occur, is accounted for, in the Scriptures, on the ground that there was an absence of true religion. This is clearly expressed by John: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." With this agrees the teaching of Christ, in the parable of the seed sown in different kinds of ground, and explained by him of the word in its effect on different classes of hearers. The stony ground hearers "in time of temptation fell away," because the seed had not much depth of earth. There may be much appearance of religion where it does not really exist. Some, the Saviour has informed us, will seek to enter in, saying: "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name have done many wonderful works?" These applicants are rejected, not on the ground that their plea was false. Their profession of Christ, and their prophesying, and working of miracles, in his name, are not denied: but the ground of this rejection is stated in these words: "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I never knew you." Now, if any of them had ever been true followers of Christ, he must have known them as such, and therefore he could not say: "I never knew you."

John L. Dagg, Manual of Theology, Book Seventh, Doctrine Concerning Divine Grace, Chapter III, Blessings of Grace, Section VI, Final Perseverance, Sub-Section 4

And we know we're one of His because Hebrews 12 tells us:

"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" -Heb. 12:6-9 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[zoidar]

Only the sheep hear the voice of Christ's call and follow Him. And He gives them eternal life. So these 'sheep' were His before they followed Christ, (predestined and foreknown by the Father )
John 10, Jesus clearly tells us why some believe and why some do not believe in Him.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I will quote my earlier post here ... Do calvinists always forget to read the second part of that text? Jesus is telling them how to become his sheep.

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
/Joh 10:37-38

 

[DeaconDean]

I will quote my earlier post here ... Do calvinists always forget to read the second part of the text?

I disagree.

You said:

No but John 10 says that everyone can become his sheep, salvation is open to all men.

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
/Joh 10:37-38

Again, you cannot take scripture out of context.

Was Jesus not speaking to a specific group(s) of people?

How can "everyone can become his sheep, salvation is open to all men" when we can't see those "works"?

Yes, salvation is "open to all mankind" however, not all mankind will come, let alone believe and repent.

And let us not forget, to whom was Jesus sent to and most importantly, to whom was He addressing in particular in this passage?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[zoidar]

DeaconDean? Why was Jesus telling them this according to you?

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
/Joh 10:37-38

 

[DeaconDean]

DeaconDean? Why was Jesus telling them this according to you?

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
/Joh 10:37-38

Again, to whom was Jesus talking to?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[zoidar]

No, I want scriptural support that we all started of as goats.

What I want scriptural support for is that we are sheep before we follow Jesus.

 

[DeaconDean]

What I want scriptural support for is that we are sheep before we follow Jesus.

Who said that we were?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[zoidar]

What's the difference between trust and faith?

As I used trust and faith, trust is more like having focus on someone, faith is more like that which has trust in someone. If you ask someone: "Do you have faith?" You tend to look at yourself. If you ask someone: "Do you have trust?" Then you tend to look at the person you trust.

The difference between us is that I know that Jesus died for me because he died for all men. You know that Jesus died for you because you have faith, because you trust in him. So I start with the fact, even if I have a day when I don't know if I believe, I can always turn back to the cross. It's done! It doesn't matter if I find faith in myself or not, the fact that Jesus died for me has nothing to do with me at all. That is where I find comfort. That's is how I so fully can trust in him.

Where do you turn if you don't know if you believe?

 

[zoidar]

Again, to whom was Jesus talking to?

God Bless

Till all are one.

"Jewish goats" ... pharisees

 

[zoidar]

Who said that we were?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Calvinists? Either we are goats or sheep right? We can't be in the middle.

 

[DeaconDean]

Calvinists? Either we are goats or sheep right? We can't be in the middle.

I don't believe I've ever heard a Calvinist say that. Leastwise none of the Calvinists I know of on this forum.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

"Jewish" ... pharisees

Exactly, the Pharisees.

The hirelings.

"The first half of John 10:1-21 presents the relationship between the shepherd and his sheep. Jesus had remained in Jerusalem after the Feast of Tabernacles. There is no indication there was a gap in time and it appears this discourse takes place after John 9 when Jesus healed the man born blind. In verse 20, those who heard this discourse were aware of Jesus' healing the blind man. This shows this message followed His confrontation with the Jews in Chapter 9. The second part of John 10:22-42 occurs two or three months later at the Feast of Dedication.

Jesus continues His confrontation of the Jewish leaders of the scribes and Pharisee who had set themselves up and the shepherds of the nation of Israel. Jesus challenges their claims as spiritual shepherds by explaining the true work and nature of the illegitimate shepherd. In spite of the His miracles, these false shepherds of Israel had vehemently rejected Jesus' message and proclamation that He was the Messiah and the Son of God. Their actions showed they had no concern for the spiritual welfare of Israel, but where hirelings who used the sheep for their personal benefit."

Source

"To make his point Jesus uses an argument from the lesser to the greater, a very common form of argument in the ancient world, not least among the rabbis. He compares the people who are called gods to himself, the Son of God. They merely received the word of God, whereas he is the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world (v. 36). Here is a succinct summary of the central truth of his identity, which has been emphasized throughout this Gospel. He is using the language of an agent (see note on 5:21), but the implication is that he existed with the Father before coming into the world. Thus, he is putting himself in the category of the law that was given by God rather than in the category of one of the recipients of that law. By saying he was set apart ("consecrated," hagiazo) he is claiming a status similar to the temple, whose reconsecration these opponents are celebrating at this feast.
What he means by the title Son of God goes beyond anything they had thought before, but it is not a denial of the truths of Scripture. Indeed, the Scripture itself, as illustrated by Psalm 82:6, contains hints of such a revelation, and the Scripture cannot be broken (v. 35); the Scripture cannot be kept from fulfillment (Brown 1966:404). This parenthetical comment spoken by Jesus shows how important this line of argument is for Jesus and John. But, as with all other arguments, it only makes sense if the listener is open to entertaining the truth of who Jesus is.

So the Scriptures indicate that they should not be put off by his claims and therefore should be open to the evidence of the deeds he has done. Jesus presses this line of evidence: Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles (vv. 37-38; cf. 5:19-28). His deeds are like the deeds of God, both in power and in graciousness. Miracles alone are not enough to confirm the truth of one who speaks for God (see comment on 9:33). But the point of these signs is not simply that they are powerful or awesome or supernatural but that they are in keeping with God's own character--they manifest his gracious love.

His conclusion again transcends the category of agent: that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father (v. 38). They are standing there with rocks in their hands (though perhaps not, since the rocks used for stoning were large; cf. m. Sanhedrin 6:4), and he is appealing to them to accept the evidence of their senses, as witnessed to by the Scriptures, that he is uniquely related to God. Again we see the antinomy between divine sovereignty and human responsibility. These are the folk Jesus said could not believe because they were not of his sheep (v. 26), but here he is appealing to them to believe. The Gospel is to be shared with everyone, even persecutors, for who knows--one may turn out to be a Saul (Acts 9:1-19).

But the appeal is in vain at this point: Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp (v. 39). They had not grasped his message so they tried to grasp him to kill him. "They failed to apprehend Him, because they lacked the hand of faith" (Augustine In John 48.11). The Father who is greater than all will protect those who believe in Jesus (v. 29), so how much more will he protect Jesus himself."

Source

So here again, I do not see anywhere in Jn. 10:37-38 that:

" John 10 says that everyone can become his sheep, salvation is open to all men."

Jesus was addressing a particular group that would not heed to Him no matter what.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[sdowney717]

I will quote my earlier post here ... Do calvinists always forget to read the second part of that text? Jesus is telling them how to become his sheep.

Jesus also said this.
John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

ONLY those given to Christ beforehand by God will come to Christ and be saved. Only they are His sheep. people can not make themselves His sheep.
Christ clearly says that just seeing Him and that implies seeing what He did all His miracles that they still did not believe due to the truth God had not foreordained-predestined- called them to be believers in Christ and saved.

CLEARLY this fits in with Paul teaching this, that only the called actually get justified in the faith.
Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Another truth is we are born again before we are actually saved. The natural man has to become a spiritual man to receive the things of God else they are foolishness to Him and natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit nor can he know them since they are spiritually discerned. Only those God gives to Christ in this way as being of His sheep will believe in Christ and be saved.
We are born of the will of God, not of our will.