The insecurity of Calvinism

GillDouglas

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That is not even what this verse is saying or who it is about.

The two flocks are Jews and the Gentiles. Gentiles are the ones that will hear His voice.

Notice that Both are SHEEP pens. Two sheep pens. Not of the same flock.
The flock of God is the people of Israel, there is only one flock consisting of people from every tribe and tongue and creed and nation. Gentiles have been grafted in, and we are all in ONE flock.

"He [Caiaphas] did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." (John 11:51-52)
 
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ToBeLoved

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The flock of God is the people of Israel, there is only one flock consisting of people from every tribe and tongue and creed and nation. Gentiles have been grafted in, and we are all in ONE flock.

"He [Caiaphas] did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." (John 11:51-52)
That verse Christ is talking about that He needs to bring the two sheep pens TOGETHER. So it is about one flock and bringing two sheep pens into one under Christ and the New Covenant.

The Old Covenant was for one people, the Hebrews/Israelite's. They are the older sheep pen, gentiles are the newer sheep pen.
 
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DeaconDean

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The Old Covenant was for one people, the Hebrews/Israelite's. They are the older sheep pen, gentiles are the newer sheep pen.

Ah hum...

"And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle." -Ex. 12:38 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Ah hum...

"And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle." -Ex. 12:38 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
There were a few who did convert, but not that many to make it an issue. Israel always had a few converts but no great number.
 
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GillDouglas

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One of the big problems with Calvinism is that you can't know that Jesus died for you without looking at your own faith. How can you trust in Jesus death for you on the cross without knowing he died for you? And the only way for a Calvinist to know for sure is checking his/her own faith. So to me Calvinism starts in the wrong end.

As a Lutheran everything starts at the cross. I know I'm redeemded because Jesus died for all men on the cross. That's the fact, that's where a Lutheran starts. Even if I can't find faith in myself I still know Jesus died for me, and that is a real blessing.

One day we all will lay there waiting for the end. In that moment I don't want there to be any doubt about the fact that Jesus has died for me. If that fact is depending on my faith, where can I find shelter if there is uncertainty in my heart?
I'm curious as to how you came to this assessment of Calvinism? If you have truly studied its teachings then you understand Calvinists believe that the very fact that a person has any faith at all is because of God. Faith is a gift by the grace of God in the saving works of Christ as a result of the Cross. You would also know that Calvinists believe that the level of faith of an individual has no bearing on salvation whatsoever, because salvation is secured by God. Calvinists understand that Christ's perfect obedience in His life fulfilled the requirements necessary to bring about salvation when He gave His life at the Cross.

A Calvinist does not trust in the fickleness of His own faith because we recognize no man is perfect, and no believer believes perfectly. A Calvinist trusts in the sovereignty of God and trusts in the works of the only One who, born under the law, knew NO sin had became the perfect sacrificial lamb without blemish and laid down His life for His people, at the Cross.
 
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FireDragon76

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I've heard of this valid criticism of Calvinism, and corresponding strength of Lutheran theology. It's true that the cross should always be our central focus, especially in times of doubts about our faith. However, parts of the Bible (especially the New Testament) are focused on a believer honestly examining his life choices. We can't look past ourselves to the cross, if we're knowingly living an unrepentant lifestyle.

In Lutheranism that sort of thing is handled pastorally, whereas Calvinism tends to make it the central proclamation. Which is one reason that the Scottish and American Reformed churches slipped into legalism, for instance, in the Marrow Controversy in the 18th century.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Calvin had this idea called Evanescent grace. Essentially its a type of grace that god gives to certain people to make it look like they are Christian but in reality they are not since they have not been elected to salvation. This explains why people fall away within the Calvinist system or can appear to be holy, true believers and etc.

The find the idea quite terrifying though it is a necessary outcome of the Calvinist system. Assurance within Calvinism is simply not within the realm of knowledge to know about for the individual believer. I don't think this a bad thing but add that on top of the idea that you might potentially be double predestined to damnation, not for anything you've done but for the sovereign will of God alone, it takes a certain individual to not break down in that system. Also add to that the possibility Christ never died for you.
 
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HereIStand

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Calvin had this idea called Evanescent grace. Essentially its a type of grace that god gives to certain people to make it look like they are Christian but in reality they are not since they have not been elected to salvation. This explains why people fall away within the Calvinist system or can appear to be holy, true believers and etc.

The find the idea quite terrifying though it is a necessary outcome of the Calvinist system. Assurance within Calvinism is simply not within the realm of knowledge to know about for the individual believer. I don't think this a bad thing but add that on top of the idea that you might potentially be double predestined to damnation, not for anything you've done but for the sovereign will of God alone, it takes a certain individual to not break down in that system. Also add to that the possibility Christ never died for you.
That there are Christians and non-Christians within the broad church is confirmed by passages like the Parable of the Dragnet in Matthew 13:47-50 (NKJV). Self-delusion won't occur unless a person becomes hardened in sin, and refuses "to love the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)." It's about willful unbelief, not determinism.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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That there are Christians and non-Christians within the broad church is confirmed by passages like the Parable of the Dragnet in Matthew 13:47-50 (NKJV). Self-delusion won't occur unless a person becomes hardened in sin, and refuses "to love the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 ESV)." It's about willful unbelief, not determinism.

I don't think it can be about wilful unbelief when it is God who is making double election to damnation. I would agree if Calvinists simply said God doesn't predestine people to damnation, but that's exactly what they say. What's more it isn't on account of the person or anything they have done that they are predestined, but it's simply God's will because God is utterly sovereign. They were predestined to damnation before they even sinned. Just as he saves independent of what the person does according to his own knowledge, he does so for the person who is damned.

To me it's not a problem that we aren't absolutely guaranteed salvation. We are told what is necessary for salvation and that God judges, I am fine with that. But many reformed go on to say Salvation is assured to the believer and yet given the existence of evanescent grace (if we follow Calvin within the reformed system), it really should make one question one's own salvation within that system. A certain amount of mystery and faith in the possibility that you don't for absolute certain that you are saved. I don't think I've misrepresented a reformed/Calvinist way of thinking here, but please correct me if I have.
 
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HereIStand

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I don't think it can be about wilful unbelief when it is God who is making double election to damnation. I would agree if Calvinists simply said God doesn't predestine people to damnation, but that's exactly what they say. What's more it isn't on account of the person or anything they have done that they are predestined, but it's simply God's will because God is utterly sovereign. They were predestined to damnation before they even sinned. Just as he saves independent of what the person does according to his own knowledge, he does so for the person who is damned.

To me it's not a problem that we aren't absolutely guaranteed salvation. We are told what is necessary for salvation and that God judges, I am fine with that. But many reformed go on to say Salvation is assured to the believer and yet given the existence of evanescent grace (if we follow Calvin within the reformed system), it really should make one question one's own salvation within that system. A certain amount of mystery and faith in the possibility that you don't for absolute certain that you are saved. I don't think I've misrepresented a reformed/Calvinist way of thinking here, but please correct me if I have.
There are different ways of interpreting predestination. A dominant belief within Puritanism (based on the book Visible Saints) was that saving faith was received, and its reception had to follow a clear progression that one could give a verbal narrative of at times as a condition for either joining the church, being baptized, or being able to receive the Lord's Supper. Further, the process of receiving saving faith could take years and one could desire to receive it, and not receive it.

With some exceptions, such a rigid understanding of received faith is uncommon among Calvinists today. Predestination is taught, but it's rarely with the understanding that those who are lost are somehow incapable of turning to God. Or predestination occurs behind the scenes, as it were, not as something we can observe in a time sequence of events.
 
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ToBeLoved

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A Calvinist does not trust in the fickleness of His own faith because we recognize no man is perfect, and no believer believes perfectly. A Calvinist trusts in the sovereignty of God and trusts in the works of the only One who, born under the law, knew NO sin had became the perfect sacrificial lamb without blemish and laid down His life for His people, at the Cross.
Christ never asks us for 'perfect faith', Christ asks for faith so this entire premise that you have brought up about a believer that believes perfectly does not even exist.

Also, we all trust only in sovereignity of God, that is another thing Calvinists like to tell themselves that they believe God is more soverign than non-Calvinists, but that is not true at all either.

We all know that Jesus is the only perfect sacrifice and the only One who could have become the sacrifice for sin and that He did this on the cross.

So Calvinists are not that special, we all believe that anyway. We just think that free will and the person chooses to have faith and believe.
 
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GillDouglas

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Christ never asks us for 'perfect faith', Christ asks for faith so this entire premise that you have brought up about a believer that believes perfectly does not even exist.
Did you read the original post? The author claimed the the Calvinist's faith was the measure in which he determined if he was truly saved or not. I never said Christ asks us for perfect faith. So what exactly is your point here?

Also, we all trust only in sovereignity of God, that is another thing Calvinists like to tell themselves that they believe God is more soverign than non-Calvinists, but that is not true at all either.
Your theology is proof enough that you do not believe or trust in the sovereignty of God. You say that you do, but it's simply not the case.

We all know that Jesus is the only perfect sacrifice and the only One who could have become the sacrifice for sin and that He did this on the cross.
The is the basics of the Gospel. Whats your point?

So Calvinists are not that special, we all believe that anyway. We just think that free will and the person chooses to have faith and believe.
The Westminster Confession Chapter 3 states: "God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass". Since you say that you believe God is sovereign, you must agree with what the WC states. But that would also include whether or not an individual is saved or not. This is not unique to Calvinism, this is a necessary tenet of theism. God's ordaining of all events in His creation is a necessary result of His sovereignty.

We do not deny Free Will, we deny human autonomy.
 
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GillDouglas

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I don't think it can be about wilful unbelief when it is God who is making double election to damnation. I would agree if Calvinists simply said God doesn't predestine people to damnation, but that's exactly what they say. What's more it isn't on account of the person or anything they have done that they are predestined, but it's simply God's will because God is utterly sovereign. They were predestined to damnation before they even sinned. Just as he saves independent of what the person does according to his own knowledge, he does so for the person who is damned.

To me it's not a problem that we aren't absolutely guaranteed salvation. We are told what is necessary for salvation and that God judges, I am fine with that. But many reformed go on to say Salvation is assured to the believer and yet given the existence of evanescent grace (if we follow Calvin within the reformed system), it really should make one question one's own salvation within that system. A certain amount of mystery and faith in the possibility that you don't for absolute certain that you are saved. I don't think I've misrepresented a reformed/Calvinist way of thinking here, but please correct me if I have.
The Calvinist view of predestination is that God actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to insure their salvation. The rest of mankind He leave to themselves. He does not create unbelief within their hearts, that is already there. He does not coerce them to sin. They willfully sin by their own choices. God has good reason to elect many and to pass over the rest.

God may use the evil inclinations and intentions of fallen men to bring about His own purposes. For example, without Judas and the men who murdered Jesus there would be no redemption. The evil desires of men's heart cannot thwart God's sovereignty anymore that His elect, all are subject to it. One group receives mercy. One group receives justice. All done for His purposes, requiring no input from men.

"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he us is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still. (Revelation 22:11)
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The Calvinist view of predestination is that God actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to insure their salvation. The rest of mankind He leave to themselves. He does not create unbelief within their hearts, that is already there. He does not coerce them to sin. They willfully sin by their own choices. God has good reason to elect many and to pass over the rest.

God may use the evil inclinations and intentions of fallen men to bring about His own purposes. For example, without Judas and the men who murdered Jesus there would be no redemption. The evil desires of men's heart cannot thwart God's sovereignty anymore that His elect, all are subject to it. One group receives mercy. One group receives justice. All done for His purposes, requiring no input from men.

"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he us is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still. (Revelation 22:11)

I suppose I still have to ask about double predestination. You don't seem to hold to that view but there are some Calvinists who do right?
 
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The Calvinist view of predestination is that God actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to insure their salvation. The rest of mankind He leave to themselves. He does not create unbelief within their hearts, that is already there. He does not coerce them to sin. They willfully sin by their own choices. God has good reason to elect many and to pass over the rest.

God may use the evil inclinations and intentions of fallen men to bring about His own purposes. For example, without Judas and the men who murdered Jesus there would be no redemption. The evil desires of men's heart cannot thwart God's sovereignty anymore that His elect, all are subject to it. One group receives mercy. One group receives justice. All done for His purposes, requiring no input from men.

"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he us is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still. (Revelation 22:11)
Well said!
 
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DeaconDean

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Calvin had this idea called Evanescent grace. Essentially its a type of grace that god gives to certain people to make it look like they are Christian but in reality they are not since they have not been elected to salvation. This explains why people fall away within the Calvinist system or can appear to be holy, true believers and etc.

Now I have Calvin's "Institutes", would you be so kind as to direct me to where it says that?

I know where is scripture it says that on that day, many will appeal to works they have done, cast out demons in His name, and He'll say away with you I knew you not. And in the parable of the Sower, it provides enough evidence that there are indeed false converts.

But I haven't seen what you say in "Institutes".

The find the idea quite terrifying though it is a necessary outcome of the Calvinist system. Assurance within Calvinism is simply not within the realm of knowledge to know about for the individual believer. I don't think this a bad thing but add that on top of the idea that you might potentially be double predestined to damnation, not for anything you've done but for the sovereign will of God alone, it takes a certain individual to not break down in that system. Also add to that the possibility Christ never died for you.

I know I have assurance, the same assurance that Paul claimed.

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." -2 Tim. 1:12 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Now I have Calvin's "Institutes", would you be so kind as to direct me to where it says that?

I know where is scripture it says that on that day, many will appeal to works they have done, cast out demons in His name, and He'll say away with you I knew you not. And in the parable of the Sower, it provides enough evidence that there are indeed false converts.

But I haven't seen what you say in "Institutes".



I know I have assurance, the same assurance that Paul claimed.

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." -2 Tim. 1:12 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

Institutes Book 3, Chapter 2, Section 11. I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election;284 and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith, is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption.

It is interesting Calvin has to differentiate the faith of some as being so similar to the believer but not essentially the same. There is no real barometer for determining that difference though since even their judgements appear to be the same. How do you know you have real assurance and not merely something almost similar for which God will hold you to greater account?
 
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DeaconDean

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Institutes Book 3, Chapter 2, Section 11. I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election;284 and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith, is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption.

It is interesting Calvin has to differentiate the faith of some as being so similar to the believer but not essentially the same. There is no real barometer for determining that difference though since even their judgements appear to be the same. How do you know you have real assurance and not merely something almost similar for which God will hold you to greater account?

You are correct, he does say "evanescent".

However, you stopped short.

He goes further to say:

"Should it be objected, that believers have no stronger testimony to assure them of their adoption, I answer, that though there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith, yet the elect alone have that full assurance which is extolled by Paul, and by which they are enabled to cry, Abba, Father. Therefore, as God regenerates the elect only for ever by incorruptible seed, as the seed of life once sown in their hearts never perishes, so he effectually seals in them the grace of his adoption, that it may be sure and steadfast. But in this there is nothing to prevent an inferior operation of the Spirit from taking its course in the reprobate. Meanwhile, believers are taught to examine themselves carefully and humbly, lest carnal security creep in and take the place of assurance of faith. We may add, that the reprobate never have any other than a confused sense of grace, laying hold of the shadow rather than the substance, because the Spirit properly seals the forgiveness of sins in the elect only, applying it by special faith to their use. Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy, they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy. In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent."

-John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Chapter 2, Section 11

Everything he wrote here goes right along with what is taught in scripture.

cf Mt. 13:3-23, 24-30, 31-32, 33; Mk. 4:1-25; Lk. 8:4-15

There will be quite a few who seem, appear to have the faith, have the works, have what looks like Christianity, but in reality, are about as far from God as one can get. They appear to have faith but not long afterwards it becomes "evanescent" ( tending to vanish like vapor; Merriam-Webster)

And why does their faith disappear?

"Although faith is a knowledge of the divine favor towards us, and a full persuasion of its truth, it is not strange that the sense of the divine love, which though akin to faith differs much from it, vanishes in those who are temporarily impressed. The will of God is, I confess, immutable, and his truth is always consistent with itself; but I deny that the reprobate ever advance so far as to penetrate to that secret revelation which Scripture reserves for the elect only. I therefore deny that they either understand his will considered as immutable, or steadily embrace his truth, inasmuch as they rest satisfied with an evanescent impression; just as a tree not planted deep enough may take root, but will in process of time wither away, though it may for several years not only put forth leaves and flowers, but produce fruit. In short, as by the revolt of the first man, the image of God could be effaced from his mind and soul, so there is nothing strange in His shedding some rays of grace on the reprobate, and afterwards allowing these to be extinguished. There is nothing to prevent His giving some a slight knowledge of his Gospel, and imbuing others thoroughly. Meanwhile, we must remember that however feeble and slender the faith of the elect may be, yet as the Spirit of God is to them a sure earnest and seal of their adoption, the impression once engraven can never be effaced from their hearts, whereas the light which glimmers in the reprobate is afterwards quenched."

Ibid, Section XII

Just like scripture:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 Jn. 2:19 (KJV)

In many ways, James says the same thing:

"For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways." -Jas. 1:11 (KJV)

Seems an awful lot like the same thing said here:

"And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away." Mt. 13:6 (KJV)

So I see no conflict.

God Bless

TIll all are one.
 
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zoidar

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That would be fine if the scripture actually said that. But nothing in John 10 says that He died for potential sheep.

No but John 10 says that everyone can become his sheep, salvation is open to all men.

"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
/Joh 10:37-38

Who are God's sheep? Those that follow him (Joh 10:27). Did you follow God before you were a Christian?

Do you know that even those that are his sheep may be lead astray? Read Matt 18.

"What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish."
 
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