The Immaculate Conception contradicts the gospel (2)

[barryatlake]

Jesus told us that it was "His church " that has the final Authority, not any later man-made churches. Heck, all you have to see is which church was formed on His Apostles to know the One True Church that Christ left us with. To declaire otherwise is to deny the Word of God

 

[Albion]

Now are we speaking about Catholics or are we speaking for the entire Christian belief system.

Catholics.

So let's say a Baptist or a Protestant doesn't believe in IC does that mean they committed a mortal sin? Do all Christian religions have to follow that doctrine?

In principle, being a non-Catholic would be a mortal sin in the first place, although the Roman Catholic Church has tried in recent years to catch up with the times by glossing over that idea by saying that non-Catholics can be Catholics without knowing it and maybe can't really sin unless they know it's a sin but do it anyway, etc.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I can see how you could fit into the Catholic scene, but "real" Catholics would look askance as if you were some sort of Cafeteria Catholic.

This could be true, if you think that, after Mass, we all stand around and talk about what each other believes about this or that doctrine.

But actually, what I do is try to perfect my own faith, rather than worry about my neighbor in the pew. Now, if someone asks about a doctrine, or vocally dissents, we have a different issue.

Now, in my evangelical days, people would get together after worship service, and talk about the new guy who came in dressed less than perfectly, or the mixed-race couple who has been seen sitting in the pews, or whatnot. This was a major reason we left that church. In my Catholic parish, you never know who's sitting next to you, and how their sins compare to yours...

 

[Standing Up]

Jesus told us that it was "His church " that has the final Authority, not any later man-made churches. Heck, all you have to see is which church was formed on His Apostles to know the One True Church that Christ left us with. To declaire otherwise is to deny the Word of God

As Firmilian said in 256ad, Rome does not abide apostolic tradition as regards Easter and other matters; anyone may know. To claim otherwise is simply not to know any history of the beginnings of Christianity.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus told us that it was "His church " that has the final Authority, not any later man-made churches. Heck, all you have to see is which church was formed on His Apostles to know the One True Church that Christ left us with. To declaire otherwise is to deny the Word of God

And would that One True Church that Christ left us with be the Antiochan Orthodox Church?

 

[bbbbbbb]

This could be true, if you think that, after Mass, we all stand around and talk about what each other believes about this or that doctrine.

But actually, what I do is try to perfect my own faith, rather than worry about my neighbor in the pew. Now, if someone asks about a doctrine, or vocally dissents, we have a different issue.

Now, in my evangelical days, people would get together after worship service, and talk about the new guy who came in dressed less than perfectly, or the mixed-race couple who has been seen sitting in the pews, or whatnot. This was a major reason we left that church. In my Catholic parish, you never know who's sitting next to you, and how their sins compare to yours...

Quite true. In my limited experience with Catholic masses most folks don't stand around and talk to anyone but beat a quick retreat to the exits in order to get on with life. With large parishes it is difficult to develop social contacts.

 

[Standing Up]

History...here you go:

Evidence from History:

Pope Pius IX officially defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in the year 1854. He did so with the understanding that this belief would help the Catholic faithful grow spiritually towards Christ. The belief that Mary was without sin was not "invented" as numerous people mistakenly think. Many are still under the false impression that the Immaculate Conception was not believed until the year 1854 when it was defined. What they fail to realize is that the belief itself has extremely strong roots in Church writings going well back into the 4th century.

"Every personal sin must be excluded from the Blessed Virgin Mary for the sake of the honor of God." - St. Augustine, 390 AD.

"Mary, a virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain." - St. Ambrose of Milan, 340-370 AD.

"You, and your Mother are alone in this. You are wholly beautiful in every respect. There is in you, Lord, no stain, nor any spot in your Mother." - St. Ephraem, 350 AD.​

In fact, there are literally dozens of cases where early Church fathers have mentioned Mary as being without sin, using such words as "All-Holy One," "All-Sinless One," and "Immaculate." It proves that the idea of Mary's sinlessness was not uncommon in the first few centuries of the Church. As time passed, the Eastern Church began to show its strong love for the Immaculate Conception with its own feast day beginning in the 8th to 9th century. By the 12th century, the Western Church was celebrating the feast of the Immaculate Conception all over Europe, and by the end of the 15th century, it was universally recognized and defended as true Christian doctrine.

Why Catholics Believe in the Immaculate Conception

Anything else?

All you have shown is that IC is a man-made Tradition, sourcing to the 4th century. You need to find apostles telling us this or at least the first or second generations from them, but you can't because IC contradicts their written words (aka scripture).

 

[Erose]

Wow, interesting to see that this thread where the OP was proven false, is still going on. I take it hat the subject of the thread is no longer the subject being discussed.

 

[Erose]

All you have shown is that IC is a man-made Tradition, sourcing to the 4th century. You need to find apostles telling us this or at least the first or second generations from them, but you can't because IC contradicts their written words (aka scripture).

Where doe it contradict? Do you know what contradict even means SU? You can claim that Scripture is silent on the matter, and that is fine. But show me the verse that explicitly contradicts that Immaculate Conception. What verse says that Mary was a sinner?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Quite true. Most Catholics are not terribly well-versed in their dogma. That is true, as well, of many other denominations, so I hope that the Catholic posters here do not take this comment personally.

Since you added that qualification, I don't take it personally, but I do want to say that those of us who care do take it personally, and try to do something about it...
There is a study of the Catholic Church done by a Catholic businessman that states that the Catholic Church in America is run by 7% of the people. These are the folks who work for the good of the Church, whether they volunteer in some respect, teach faith formation, lector, assist the priest at the altar, greet people coming in the door, usher, etc. And the study also found that 90% of the funding of the Church in America comes from those same 7%.

Now, in business, there's the 80/20 rule, that says that 20% of an organization does 80% of the legwork, and that 20% of products produce 80% of sales within a given company.

Now, 7% doesn't seem like a lot of people, but it amounts to 4.2 million people. The study determined that, if we could just engage another 1%, how much better would the Church be?

What I'm saying is that we are trying to do something about that criticism, but it will always hold true. Most people today just don't have time for their faith.
Personally, I make time every day. I attend daily Mass, spend some time at the beginning and end of every day in prayer, and try to promote diligence and perseverance to my fellow Catholics.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Not per RC. RC believes in Scripture and Tradition (which might be pulled from a variety of sources like PoJ, Augustine, etc).

Your Magesterium BTW is RC authority. The one legged stool as it were.

So you want to believe. That doesn't make it true.

 

[Root of Jesse]

God can do whatever he wills so I don't see a reason why he wouldn't. Just wondering why you asking me these questions though?

To explain why we believe it, to present the logic of it. There is no reason why he wouldn't. And because there's precedent that he did it previously, we believe he did it again.

 

[Root of Jesse]

What's the central issue? Again, IC is based on bad science. The mother does not give her baby her blood. The baby creates its own.

I don't think the dogma is scientific, at all. But regarding mother giving baby blood, so what? But you DO know that a child in the womb gives its mother cells from its own body. And that the baby's blood is created with the DNA of father and mother, right?

Think Galileo, except RC dodged the dogma bullet with that one.

You don't know what you're talking about, regarding Gallileo, but that's another thread for another time. The Church already knew that the earth was not the center of the universe. But mixing science and religion has never been a good thing. Science explains how the heavens go, while religion teaches how to go to heaven.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Since you added that qualification, I don't take it personally, but I do want to say that those of us who care do take it personally, and try to do something about it...
There is a study of the Catholic Church done by a Catholic businessman that states that the Catholic Church in America is run by 7% of the people. These are the folks who work for the good of the Church, whether they volunteer in some respect, teach faith formation, lector, assist the priest at the altar, greet people coming in the door, usher, etc. And the study also found that 90% of the funding of the Church in America comes from those same 7%.

Now, in business, there's the 80/20 rule, that says that 20% of an organization does 80% of the legwork, and that 20% of products produce 80% of sales within a given company.

Now, 7% doesn't seem like a lot of people, but it amounts to 4.2 million people. The study determined that, if we could just engage another 1%, how much better would the Church be?

What I'm saying is that we are trying to do something about that criticism, but it will always hold true. Most people today just don't have time for their faith.
Personally, I make time every day. I attend daily Mass, spend some time at the beginning and end of every day in prayer, and try to promote diligence and perseverance to my fellow Catholics.

Good post and I think your statistics would probably be similar to many other churches, as well.

 

[James Is Back]

And would that One True Church that Christ left us with be the Antiochan Orthodox Church?

Or Baptist,or Eastern Orthodox,or Catholic,or Protestant,or..................

 

[SolomonVII]

I was wondering when someone would ask that obvious question. Like it's a sin to be born? Man, that's an odd belief for me to swallow. Excuse me but I'll pass on that one.

I did look it up to see if something akin to original sin is Biblical. There is some compelling Biblical evidence, most of it from the OT, that people are sinners from their conception.
There are some different ideas on the subject. Rousseau makes the case that people are essentially born good and are corrupted by society. Others see human nature as basically a blank slate that is essentially infinitely malleable.
Jews I have listened to talk not so much about original sin, but about an evil inclination.

I tend to see humankind as being born essentially heel -grabbers, like Jacob. If the will to survive and compete is not there from the moment of conception even, survival in this world would not even be possible.

We are not in Eden anymore.

I am not sure where that leaves us when it comes to the nature of Mary and Jesus. The more that the will to survive, our evil inclination, our inherited nature of original sin, is stressed as natural and even essential to being human, the more that Mary and Jesus become more exclusively of a divine nature at the expense of a human nature.

I think that was basically the point made by the OP,albeit in a rather convoluted and legalistic way, all those posts ago.

Is it the Orthodox position that people are born basically good, without an evil inclination, without original sin as defined as an inherited sin nature?

 

[Albion]

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Romans 3:10-18 (cf. Psalms 14 and 53)

10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

[Mama Kidogo]

And would that One True Church that Christ left us with be the Antiochan Orthodox Church?

Yes, they are a part of her.

 

[Rick Otto]

Jesus told us that it was "His church " that has the final Authority, not any later man-made churches. Heck, all you have to see is which church was formed on His Apostles to know the One True Church that Christ left us with. To declaire otherwise is to deny the Word of God

Yes, and that obviates the pretense of Rome.

BTW, would you mind personaly, if I used the RC icon instead of the generic christian one?
Just askin'.