The Immaculate Conception contradicts the gospel (2)

[bbbbbbb]

Oh I get the dogma part. But as I don't have to believe it, it doesn't concern me. That is unless I want to become Catholic. And even then there's so much wiggle room in that dogma that it doesn't really require a load of study to believe. It's that Dogma word that causes us to even dig in the first place.

Now I gotta ask: Do you see how my belief could actually fit the Catechism? And it could also fit in a pre-teen Baptist Sunday school teaching. (mine not theirs).

I can see how you could fit into the Catholic scene, but "real" Catholics would look askance as if you were some sort of Cafeteria Catholic.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Is original sin Biblical?

I was wondering when someone would ask that obvious question. Like it's a sin to be born? Man, that's an odd belief for me to swallow. Excuse me but I'll pass on that one.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, a Catholic must believe that God created Mary without sin (in other words, the perfect human). We don't have to hold an opinion about whether Jesus was born in blood or not. Or whether Mary died or not.

Do you know Catholics who say they disagree about Mary's Immaculate Conception? I don't. But here's the thing: Here's how it's a mortal sin. I wake up some morning in the future, and say to myself "Self, you know, the Church teaches that Mary was born immaculate. But I don't think the Church knows what she's talking about, and I refuse to agree with this dogma." On the other hand, if I don't completely understand all the implications of this dogma, and say "Self, I don't know how the Church comes up with these things, but I humbly submit to it, whether I understand it or not." There's no mortal sin there.

By the way, the Church sends no one to hell. But people commit themselves to hell all the time.

Thanks for the clear answer. I do appreciate it. To answer your question, I don't know any Catholics who disagree with the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. It is a topic that almost never comes up in normal conversation with my Catholic friends. If we venture into any form of religious conversation it tends to be on current concerns in the Catholic Church such as the difficulty in recruiting priests and nuns.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I can see how you could fit into the Catholic scene, but "real" Catholics would look askance as if you were some sort of Cafeteria Catholic.

Maybe.
But I find their dogma pretty vague as well. I think most Catholics would just say, "close enough'. I don't think they do an inquisition on new converts.

I'm thinking it's taught a bit vague for a reason. I can't say I've met many Catholics who take it to the extremes we non-Catholics say they teach it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Maybe.
But I find their dogma pretty vague as well. I think most Catholics would just say, "close enough'. I don't think they do an inquisition on new converts.

I'm thinking it's taught a bit vague for a reason. I can't say I've met many Catholics who take it to the extremes we non-Catholics say they teach it.

Quite true. Most Catholics are not terribly well-versed in their dogma. That is true, as well, of many other denominations, so I hope that the Catholic posters here do not take this comment personally.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Quite true. Most Catholics are not terribly well-versed in their dogma. That is true, as well, of many other denominations, so I hope that the Catholic posters here do not take this comment personally.

Their isn't much to be versed on. The dogma is incredibly short. Unless you get it from wiki. The CCC is very short and not at all concise about details.It only get's long and complicated when the history and the why is examined. But those parts are not dogma. The CCC basically just says she is kept from the stain of original sin from her conception, that it's dogma and which pope said so.
Dogma doesn't mean you have to fully grasp or understand it. It means you say OK and accept it by faith.

For me to say OK I'd first need to believe in the idea of being born with original sin. That would be a big hurdle for me to navigate. Then , I'd need to deal with it happening at her conception. A bit of a pill to swallow as well.
Her being pure enough through the grace of God is enough for me. Exactly how or when He accomplished it seems odd to concern one's self with IMO.

 

[Standing Up]

I've read many. Only one is considered authoritative.

Not per RC. RC believes in Scripture and Tradition (which might be pulled from a variety of sources like PoJ, Augustine, etc).

Your Magesterium BTW is RC authority. The one legged stool as it were.

 

[Standing Up]

This is Mama's immaculate belief of Mary's conception.
At that very moment of conception God created His perfect vessel to be the Mother of Our Lord. Perfect because He made her.

No need to go further, add too or read any more into it than that.
Now everything I do because of my belief, is the nice dress, fine linen tablecloth, flowers and candle. And of coarse a kiss. And yes I iron the table cloth and napkins. It makes me hungry in a good way.

EO typically believe Mary became immaculate at her agreement with God. RC believes it was at her conception.

But hey, nowadays, who keeps score?

 

[Standing Up]

And I can see you read more into what I wrote than was written.
I didn't say, not mortal, nor did I even allude to sinless. Just perfect because God made her. I could have said all but the motherhood part about you. even not believing you were born through your mother's nostrils.
I'm making a point here. We agree dogmatizing (I think I just invented a word) it was one of those , "You chose poorly' moments. I'd even fathom to guess most but the Catholic would agree with that.
So we are left with the teaching. Shouldn't we pick that apart by the words used in the Catechism? It get's a bit more difficult then. We tend to add to it what is not written without even trying to.
Me and you both read that Catechism as saying what you said a few post back. But that's not really what it says. It has a lot more wiggle-room in it.
I'm not so sure my posted belief wouldn't fit into it. But the heart of the beliefs are different.

So let's try this again:
At the moment Albion was conceived, God created the perfect Albion. Perfect because God made him. Perfect at what? Being Albion.

'Course that's different. No one thinks Albion without sin Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Standing Up]

There may, indeed, be varying levels of understanding of any doctrine, but i think you will agree that regardless of to what degree one understands the dogma of the Immaculate Conception one must believe it in order to be saved. It is, after all, a de fide dogma. The Church may excommunicate you for not believing it, but its teaching is clear that not believing it is a mortal sin which will send you to hell.

True.

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

PS. I can't understand why someone would teach a born-again believer will go to hell for not agreeing with their dogma!?

 

[Standing Up]

But is Immaculate Conception biblical? I always thought that anyone born from day 1 had original sin and that included Mary.

If Mary didn't have original sin than she would have been an angel brought from heaven or created by God himself which I don't think is scripture itself but than again what do I know I'm still learning.

Is IC biblical? No.

 

[James Is Back]

So any reason why he wouldn't, especially for his only Son?

God can do whatever he wills so I don't see a reason why he wouldn't. Just wondering why you asking me these questions though?

 

[Standing Up]

Excommunication, you're right, is not sending someone to hell. It's more like chemotherapy-you gotta be rough with it, and there might be collateral damage, but the intent is to get your head turned around straight.

Regarding the Immaculate Conception, there's a lot of levels of belief. You can accept it as truth, and not think too much of it (like how I posted-God wanted a perfect mother for his son, and so he made it happen). You can dig deeper, and get some nuances, deeper still and get more, and you can get down into the nitty gritty, and start on the peripheral stuff that's not required. But Protestants don't usually get that, and so they dig into the periphery, and ignore the central issue.

What's the central issue? Again, IC is based on bad science. The mother does not give her baby her blood. The baby creates its own.

Think Galileo, except RC dodged the dogma bullet with that one.

 

[James Is Back]

There may, indeed, be varying levels of understanding of any doctrine, but i think you will agree that regardless of to what degree one understands the dogma of the Immaculate Conception one must believe it in order to be saved. It is, after all, a de fide dogma. The Church may excommunicate you for not believing it, but its teaching is clear that not believing it is a mortal sin which will send you to hell.

Now are we speaking about Catholics or are we speaking for the entire Christian belief system.

So let's say a Baptist or a Protestant doesn't believe in IC does that mean they committed a mortal sin? Do all Christian religions have to follow that doctrine?

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Now are we speaking about Catholics or are we speaking for the entire Christian belief system.

So let's say a Baptist or a Protestant doesn't believe in IC does that mean they committed a mortal sin? Do all Christian religions have to follow that doctrine?

Not unless you want it to. Seriously, it's a Catholic thing. It's not like they are going to re-excommunicate you. you're just a bit outside their jurisdiction.
Besides that you've missed enough Mass to make this a tiny issue. And just how long has it been since your last confession? (That's a joke)
I'm trying to picture this; Forgive me father for i have sinned. It's been..ahh, err, never since my last confession..........

 

[James Is Back]

Well I'm not Catholic so that's why I asked. And it's been Tuesday since my last confession

 

[Defensor Christi]

Show the history of the idea, if you dare. Even the Catholic Church notes that that this is not a historic idea.

It is an unnecessary theology. There is nothing about Mary that would make Jesus impure, whether or not she was immaculately conceived.

History...here you go:

Evidence from History:

Pope Pius IX officially defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in the year 1854. He did so with the understanding that this belief would help the Catholic faithful grow spiritually towards Christ. The belief that Mary was without sin was not "invented" as numerous people mistakenly think. Many are still under the false impression that the Immaculate Conception was not believed until the year 1854 when it was defined. What they fail to realize is that the belief itself has extremely strong roots in Church writings going well back into the 4th century.

"Every personal sin must be excluded from the Blessed Virgin Mary for the sake of the honor of God." - St. Augustine, 390 AD.

"Mary, a virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain." - St. Ambrose of Milan, 340-370 AD.

"You, and your Mother are alone in this. You are wholly beautiful in every respect. There is in you, Lord, no stain, nor any spot in your Mother." - St. Ephraem, 350 AD.​

In fact, there are literally dozens of cases where early Church fathers have mentioned Mary as being without sin, using such words as "All-Holy One," "All-Sinless One," and "Immaculate." It proves that the idea of Mary's sinlessness was not uncommon in the first few centuries of the Church. As time passed, the Eastern Church began to show its strong love for the Immaculate Conception with its own feast day beginning in the 8th to 9th century. By the 12th century, the Western Church was celebrating the feast of the Immaculate Conception all over Europe, and by the end of the 15th century, it was universally recognized and defended as true Christian doctrine.

Why Catholics Believe in the Immaculate Conception

Anything else?

 

[Defensor Christi]

But is Immaculate Conception biblical? I always thought that anyone born from day 1 had original sin and that included Mary.

If Mary didn't have original sin than she would have been an angel brought from heaven or created by God himself which I don't think is scripture itself but than again what do I know I'm still learning.

You have "bible believing" Protestants that will tell you Original Sin isnt biblical...the bible itself does not profess sola scriptura...that is the crux of questions such as these. Heck, Mormons will tell you the bible clearly teaches against the Holy Trinity.

 

[Defensor Christi]

Now are we speaking about Catholics or are we speaking for the entire Christian belief system.

So let's say a Baptist or a Protestant doesn't believe in IC does that mean they committed a mortal sin? Do all Christian religions have to follow that doctrine?

This should help... #54

 

[bbbbbbb]

Now are we speaking about Catholics or are we speaking for the entire Christian belief system.

So let's say a Baptist or a Protestant doesn't believe in IC does that mean they committed a mortal sin? Do all Christian religions have to follow that doctrine?

According to the Catholic Church, it and it alone is the church and, as such, anyone who has been properly baptized is subject to its authority. The problem that they have had is enforcing that authority over other Christians who belong to other churches. Hence, the Council of Trent was called in the sixteenth century and they produced a lengthy document which determined that anyone who disagreed with the Catholic Church is a heretic.

Of course, those of us who are not Catholic don't think that document is worth the parchment it was written on and that it has no effect on us at all. God is our authority, not some denomination.

So, when the Catholic Church decided that the Immaculate Conception was a dogma which must be believed in order to be saved and those who did not believe it were guilty of a mortal sin and headed for hell, it really didn't change a thing for non-Catholics because the Catholic Church had already said that about us, and worse.