The Immaculate Conception contradicts the gospel (2)

[bbbbbbb]

your gonna have to show me all that in the catechism concerning the Immaculate Conception. I really don't think it's that long a statement. I do understand you might buch a lot of stuff together from the CCC and come up with that theory but you'd need to want to. I don't equate excommunication with sent to the lake of fire. Pretty sure even the Catholic Church doesn't suppose quite that much authority. They may warn of it but that's a bit less than stating it outright and zapping one into hellfire.

Not a problem. As neither you nor I are Catholics we can be sure that our Catholic friends will correct our errors. For that we can be thankful.

Here is the section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

Now, you need to pay attention to that little word, dogma, because it is really significant. Here is a link concerning Mariology - Roman Catholic Mariology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In it you will see that the Immaculate Conception is a de fide dogma, which is the very highest level of dogma in the Catholic Church. It is on the same level as the Resurrection and the Trinity.



Here is a link to a discussion about Catholic dogma - Roman Catholic dogma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I hope these help.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Excommunication, you're right, is not sending someone to hell. It's more like chemotherapy-you gotta be rough with it, and there might be collateral damage, but the intent is to get your head turned around straight.

Regarding the Immaculate Conception, there's a lot of levels of belief. You can accept it as truth, and not think too much of it (like how I posted-God wanted a perfect mother for his son, and so he made it happen). You can dig deeper, and get some nuances, deeper still and get more, and you can get down into the nitty gritty, and start on the peripheral stuff that's not required. But Protestants don't usually get that, and so they dig into the periphery, and ignore the central issue.

There may, indeed, be varying levels of understanding of any doctrine, but i think you will agree that regardless of to what degree one understands the dogma of the Immaculate Conception one must believe it in order to be saved. It is, after all, a de fide dogma. The Church may excommunicate you for not believing it, but its teaching is clear that not believing it is a mortal sin which will send you to hell.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Not a problem. As neither you nor I are Catholics we can be sure that our Catholic friends will correct our errors. For that we can be thankful.

Here is the section from the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

Now, you need to pay attention to that little word, dogma, because it is really significant. Here is a link concerning Mariology - Roman Catholic Mariology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In it you will see that the Immaculate Conception is a de fide dogma, which is the very highest level of dogma in the Catholic Church. It is on the same level as the Resurrection and the Trinity.



Here is a link to a discussion about Catholic dogma - Roman Catholic dogma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I hope these help.

Oh I get the dogma part. But as I don't have to believe it, it doesn't concern me. That is unless I want to become Catholic. And even then there's so much wiggle room in that dogma that it doesn't really require a load of study to believe. It's that Dogma word that causes us to even dig in the first place.

Now I gotta ask: Do you see how my belief could actually fit the Catechism? And it could also fit in a pre-teen Baptist Sunday school teaching. (mine not theirs).

 

[Root of Jesse]

There may, indeed, be varying levels of understanding of any doctrine, but i think you will agree that regardless of to what degree one understands the dogma of the Immaculate Conception one must believe it in order to be saved. It is, after all, a de fide dogma. The Church may excommunicate you for not believing it, but its teaching is clear that not believing it is a mortal sin which will send you to hell.

Yes, a Catholic must believe that God created Mary without sin (in other words, the perfect human). We don't have to hold an opinion about whether Jesus was born in blood or not. Or whether Mary died or not.

Do you know Catholics who say they disagree about Mary's Immaculate Conception? I don't. But here's the thing: Here's how it's a mortal sin. I wake up some morning in the future, and say to myself "Self, you know, the Church teaches that Mary was born immaculate. But I don't think the Church knows what she's talking about, and I refuse to agree with this dogma." On the other hand, if I don't completely understand all the implications of this dogma, and say "Self, I don't know how the Church comes up with these things, but I humbly submit to it, whether I understand it or not." There's no mortal sin there.

By the way, the Church sends no one to hell. But people commit themselves to hell all the time.

 

[James Is Back]

But is Immaculate Conception biblical? I always thought that anyone born from day 1 had original sin and that included Mary.

If Mary didn't have original sin than she would have been an angel brought from heaven or created by God himself which I don't think is scripture itself but than again what do I know I'm still learning.

 

[Albion]

But is Immaculate Conception biblical? I always thought that anyone born from day 1 had original sin and that included Mary.

The Biblical argument rests entirely upon the angel who said to Mary at the Annunciation, "You have found favor with God" which is translated in the older Bible versions as "full of grace." If she was filled up with God's grace, so the argument goes, there's no room for any sin of any kind.

If Mary didn't have original sin than she would have been an angel brought from heaven or created by God himself which I don't think is scripture itself but than again what do I know I'm still learning.

I don't agree with that. In theory, he could have suspended the transmission of Original Sin in this one case--a miraculous development--without those other implications you mentioned.

But still there is no Biblical reason IMO for concluding that she was conceived without sin. It's a rationalization.

 

[James Is Back]

The Biblical argument rests entirely upon the angel who said to Mary at the Annunciation, "You have found favor with God" which is translated in the older Bible versions as "full of grace." If she was filled up with God's grace, so the argument goes, there's no room for any sin of any kind.


I don't agree with that. In theory, he could have suspended the transmission of Original Sin in this one case--a miraculous development--without those other implications you mentioned.

But still there is no Biblical reason IMO for concluding that she was conceived without sin. It's a rationalization.

Well I really don't agree with it either I was just trying to figure out how God could have made Mary without OS. But the theory that he suspended it makes more sense but still I'm not Catholic and I haven't seen it in scripture.

 

[Root of Jesse]

But is Immaculate Conception biblical? I always thought that anyone born from day 1 had original sin and that included Mary.

If Mary didn't have original sin than she would have been an angel brought from heaven or created by God himself which I don't think is scripture itself but than again what do I know I'm still learning.

Adam and Eve were born without Original Sin because God made them that way. There is the precedent for another being born the same way, again, by God's Grace (nothing Mary did to be born that way, or to merit it).

You do realize that Satan is an evil angel, right? And Mary, as are we all, are God's creations. You don't think God could create a sinless human?

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Biblical argument rests entirely upon the angel who said to Mary at the Annunciation, "You have found favor with God" which is translated in the older Bible versions as "full of grace."

Translated correctly as "full of grace", we believe...

If she was filled up with God's grace, so the argument goes, there's no room for any sin of any kind.

At least you're learning to state our beliefs correctly! I give you kudos for that.

I don't agree with that. In theory, he could have suspended the transmission of Original Sin in this one case--a miraculous development--without those other implications you mentioned.

But still there is no Biblical reason IMO for concluding that she was conceived without sin. It's a rationalization.

One that was held very early on, which is why it still exists that way today.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The only biblical scripture that seems to fit with Catholic belief system would be Psalm 132 from what I can find.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The only biblical scripture that seems to fit with Catholic belief system would be Psalm 132 from what I can find.

Can you tell me if this is the Psalm you're referring to? Remember, your numbering system of the Psalms varies from ours...

scripture

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Yes thats the same one. It speaks of the ark etc but literally it was fulfilled with Solomon. Acts 7:26 as habitation of God can be crossreferenced with 132:5 , but vs 13-14 places it at the overcomers .... :shrug:

edit: sorry 7:46

 

[SolomonVII]

But is Immaculate Conception biblical? I always thought that anyone born from day 1 had original sin and that included Mary.

If Mary didn't have original sin than she would have been an angel brought from heaven or created by God himself which I don't think is scripture itself but than again what do I know I'm still learning.

Is original sin Biblical?

 

[James Is Back]

You don't think God could create a sinless human?

Yes he can.

 

[James Is Back]

Is original sin Biblical?

That's a different debate though.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yes thats the same one. It speaks of the ark etc but literally it was fulfilled with Solomon. Acts 7:26 as habitation of God can be crossreferenced with 132:5 , but vs 13-14 places it at the overcomers .... :shrug:

edit: sorry 7:46

But you know that the ark was lost, never to be seen again? The Ark is specifically mentioned, though, in Rev 11, and at the end of Chapter 11, into chapter 12, we see "a woman, clothed with the sun..."

We believe that Mary is the manifestation of the Ark. She contained the Word of God, the Bread of Life, and the High Priest.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yes he can.

So any reason why he wouldn't, especially for his only Son?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

But you know that the ark was lost, never to be seen again? The Ark is specifically mentioned, though, in Rev 11, and at the end of Chapter 11, into chapter 12, we see "a woman, clothed with the sun..."

We believe that Mary is the manifestation of the Ark. She contained the Word of God, the Bread of Life, and the High Priest.

Maybe the eunich had it to give to the queen of Sheba where they claim to still have it Shadows on earth have the substance in heaven. Some things that were outside of the veil were found inside in the heavens.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Yes thats the same one. It speaks of the ark etc but literally it was fulfilled with Solomon. Acts 7:26 as habitation of God can be crossreferenced with 132:5 , but vs 13-14 places it at the overcomers .... :shrug:

edit: sorry 7:46

But you know that the ark was lost, never to be seen again? The Ark is specifically mentioned, though, in Rev 11, and at the end of Chapter 11, into chapter 12, we see "a woman, clothed with the sun..."

We believe that Mary is the manifestation of the Ark. She contained the Word of God, the Bread of Life, and the High Priest.

That seems to be the same answer to anything that I post...nvrmnd

 

[Mama Kidogo]

The Biblical argument rests entirely upon the angel who said to Mary at the Annunciation, "You have found favor with God" which is translated in the older Bible versions as "full of grace." If she was filled up with God's grace, so the argument goes, there's no room for any sin of any kind.


I don't agree with that. In theory, he could have suspended the transmission of Original Sin in this one case--a miraculous development--without those other implications you mentioned.

But still there is no Biblical reason IMO for concluding that she was conceived without sin. It's a rationalization.

Excellent post. Every word.