The Immaculate Conception contradicts the gospel (2)

[Mama Kidogo]

I did look it up to see if something akin to original sin is Biblical. There is some compelling Biblical evidence, most of it from the OT, that people are sinners from their conception.
There are some different ideas on the subject. Rousseau makes the case that people are essentially born good and are corrupted by society. Others see human nature as basically a blank slate that is essentially infinitely malleable.
Jews I have listened to talk not so much about original sin, but about an evil inclination.

I tend to see humankind as being born essentially heel -grabbers, like Jacob. If the will to survive and compete is not there from the moment of conception even, survival in this world would not even be possible.

We are not in Eden anymore.

I am not sure where that leaves us when it comes to the nature of Mary and Jesus. The more that the will to survive, our evil inclination, our inherited nature of original sin, is stressed as natural and even essential to being human, the more that Mary and Jesus become more exclusively of a divine nature at the expense of a human nature.

I think that was basically the point made by the OP,albeit in a rather convoluted and legalistic way, all those posts ago.

Is it the Orthodox position that people are born basically good, without an evil inclination, without original sin as defined as an inherited sin nature?

Nope. We believe we are born with the inclination to sin. But until we sin we have not sinned.i needed to edit to add something.
This is not going against the scripture about a man saying he has not sinned. Babes don't talk.
What happens with this born into sin thing is three things; ICand the doctrine of the age of reason for the Catholic. The doctrine of the age of accountability for protestants. You have to invent something for those unbaptized babies who die or end up seeming to serve a cruel God and offering no hope to the mourning parents. I do believe IC is born of necessity because of the doctrine of original sin.Why else would you go to the moment of her conception? You'd think 'full of grace' would be aplenty.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Psalms 51:5 - Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Good verse about a mother being a sinner when she conceived her child. I think most everyone would fit into that. But it doesn't make the babe evil.

 

[Rick Otto]

Where doe it contradict? Do you know what contradict even means SU? You can claim that Scripture is silent on the matter, and that is fine. But show me the verse that explicitly contradicts that Immaculate Conception. What verse says that Mary was a sinner?

You've already demonstrated invincible ignorance on the relevant scriptures. We've set that aside for another acceptable standard:

(quote=SU) "You need to find apostles telling us this or at least the first or second generations from them, but you can't because IC contradicts their written words (aka scripture). "

 

[Albion]

Good verse about a mother being a sinner when she conceived her child. I think most everyone would fit into that. But it doesn't make the babe evil.

The speaker is obviously not the mother and yet he asserts that HE was formed in iniquity. That isn't a commentary on his mother's sin or lack of it, although I'd agree that the second part of the sentence could be taken that way.

And I didn't just pluck this verse out of thin air. It's often cited by pastors and churches as evidence that Original Sin is real.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Good verse about a mother being a sinner when she conceived her child. I think most everyone would fit into that. But it doesn't make the babe evil.

If I may, I would like to ask you a question. How many times does a dog need to bark before it becomes a dog?

 

[SolomonVII]

Nope. We believe we are born with the inclination to sin. But until we sin we have not sinned.i needed to edit to add something.
This is not going against the scripture about a man saying he has not sinned. Babes don't talk.
What happens with this born into sin thing is three things; ICand the doctrine of the age of reason for the Catholic. The doctrine of the age of accountability for protestants. You have to invent something for those unbaptized babies who die or end up seeming to serve a cruel God and offering no hope to the mourning parents. I do believe IC is born of necessity because of the doctrine of original sin.Why else would you go to the moment of her conception? You'd think 'full of grace' would be aplenty.

Evil inclination is how Jewish rabbis describe it to.

But how does this square away with this Biblical verse?

Parallel Verses
New International Version
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

New Living Translation
For I was born a sinner--yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

English Standard Version
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

New American Standard Bible
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

King James Bible
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Indeed, I was guilty when I was born; I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

International Standard Version
Indeed, in iniquity I was brought forth; in sin my mother conceived me.

NET Bible
Look, I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Because in evil I was formed in the womb and in sin my mother conceived me.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Indeed, I was born guilty. I was a sinner when my mother conceived me.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Behold, the pain of my iniquity has caused me to writhe; my mother conceived me so that sin might be removed from me.

King James 2000 Bible
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

American King James Version
Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

American Standard Version
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For behold I was conceived in iniquities; and in sins did my mother conceive me.

Darby Bible Translation
Behold, in iniquity was I brought forth, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

English Revised Version
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Webster's Bible Translation
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

World English Bible
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity. In sin my mother conceived me.

Young's Literal Translation
Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

More important than that though, would it be the belief of the Orthodox that Mary and Jesus were born with the "inclination to sin" too?
If we forget about the specific term 'original sin' and the wide variety of understandings that people hold on it, what about the inclination to sin aspect of it?

 

[Erose]

You've already demonstrated invincible ignorance on the relevant scriptures. We've set that aside for another acceptable standard:

(quote=SU) "You need to find apostles telling us this or at least the first or second generations from them, but you can't because IC contradicts their written words (aka scripture). "

Well it is easy to have ignorance of something that doesn't exist correct? The fact is that you cannot disprove explicitly that Mary wasn't immaculately conceived. You can claim that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception isn't explicitly taught in Scripture, and on that I concede that fact. But contradict? Sorry it ain't there.

 

[Rick Otto]

Invincible.

 

[Erose]

Invincible.

Yep. If it doesn't exist then it is pretty easy, to be invincibly ignorant of it. And since evidence against the immaculate conception doesn't exist, well...

 

[Rick Otto]

...and unicorns!

 

[James Is Back]

Yep. If it doesn't exist then it is pretty easy, to be invincibly ignorant of it. And since evidence against the immaculate conception doesn't exist, well...

Catholic lynch mob coming for you

 

[Erose]

...and unicorns!

I guess the question is if someone is ignorant of the existence of something that doesn't exist, is he really ignorant?

 

[Standing Up]

Yep. If it doesn't exist then it is pretty easy, to be invincibly ignorant of it. And since evidence against the immaculate conception doesn't exist, well...

See post #246. The conversation is swirling with scripture of all falling short, being conceived in sin.

BTW, my take on birthed with the "inclination to sin" or however one phrases it is we are all born spiritually dead. We must be born again from above. Even Mary. Christ not, whose Father is God.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I guess the question is if someone is ignorant of the existence of something that doesn't exist, is he really ignorant?

If a tree falls in a forest when no one is around does it make any noise?

 

[MrMoe]

I guess the question is if someone is ignorant of the existence of something that doesn't exist, is he really ignorant?

Unicorns do exist. They're in the bible

 

[James Is Back]

Ok replace unicorns with leprechauns than!

 

[prodromos]

Their horns were highly prized as an aphrodisiac. Thats why they became extinct
(Unicorns, not Leprechauns)

 

[James Is Back]

Their horns were highly prized as an aphrodisiac. Thats why they became extinct
(Unicorns, not Leprechauns)

There's a joke in there but I will refrain from it

 

[Defensor Christi]

Deleted by poster...

 

[Defensor Christi]

All you have shown is that IC is a man-made Tradition, sourcing to the 4th century. You need to find apostles telling us this or at least the first or second generations from them, but you can't because IC contradicts their written words (aka scripture).

So...first there was no historical proof, now the proof isnt old enough?

It is impossible to please everyone...please show where IC contradicts the apostles in scripture...thanks!