The House of Israel and The House of Judah

[Luke17:37]

When did "Beast" ever become to symbolize a person?

In the final beast kingdom their will be multiple kings/ruler. and they all will be Anti-Christ. Because as 1 John 2 says that antichrist is anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ.

Beasts are kingdoms, and they consists of multiple rulers. Beasts are not merely a single ruler, but are simply symbolizing kingdoms.

When you read in revelation for example in Rev. 13:2 - and it says the Dragon gave unto HIM his power and great authority.
"HIM" does not mean that its referring to a single person. its Autos in the Greek which can mean "him, her, it, them"

Kingdoms are ruled by kings. Revelation 19 is clear that the beast (beast of the sea) and false prophet (beast of the earth) are individuals. Yes, they can rule a kingdom which is also referred to as the beast. But there's an individual guided by Satan at the helm.

Revelation 19:20
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The beast and false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire 1,000+ years before anyone else. Satan is thrown there after he deceives the nations for the Gog and Magog rebellion (after 1,000 years) (Revelation 20:10), and the rest of the wicked are cast there after they appear before the throne of God (Revelation 20:15).

 

[Job8]

All 12 tribes were not Jew's

We need some clarity on this subject.

1. *Israel* and *Jacob* are used interchangeably until the Babylonian captivity, and refer to the twelve tribes of Israel.

2. The Kingdom of Judah consisted of Judah and Benjamin, whereas the Kingdom of Israel was wiped out and the ten tribes within that kingdom were scattered and also intermarried, following which the Samaritans came on the scene.

3. The term Jew was applied to those who returned to Palestine after the Babylonian captivity, and in the NT denotes those living in Judea (including those from the tribe of Levi).

4. During the time of Christ *Israel* and *Jew* were used interchangeably, and that is exactly what Paul does. At the same time he frequently uses *Israel* to denote believing Jews, and calls them "the good olive tree".

5. From 70 AD to 1948 AD, the term *Israel* could not be used, but from 1948 the nation state of Israel came into existence. However, they are essentially unbelieving Jews, and many of them are from Central Asia, Russia and Eastern Europe. It would not be unreasonable to expect that many of these Ashkenazim are from the ten tribes. (The Sephardic Jews came from Palestine and were scattered throughout the world).

6. During the Church Age, there are both Jews and Gentiles on earth, but from God's perspective there is no distinction until the Second Coming of Christ. Neither is there any such distinction within the Church. But God already sees all the distinct tribes is the future, therefore the 144,000 redeemed Jews in Revelation are representative of Israel during and after the Millennium.

7. After the Second Coming, the *houses* of Judah and Israel will be reunited and the redeemed and restored *kingdom of Israel* will be established on earth (with David as prince under Christ the King), with each of the 12 tribes occupying their designated territories. Thus we have this question in Acts 1:6,7: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7).

 

[Salem]

Jerusalem the fig tree, 1967. 1967+70 for a generation = 2037.

It's impossible to nail down the years in a Biblical generation. I used to play with numbers a lot. You can take scripture itself and a little arithmetic, and come up with what you'd think would be a good generation number.

In David's day, around 1,000 BC, people lived the threescore and ten, give or take, but relative to our day, unlike the times before and in proximity to the times of the flood. You have this, explicit in Matthew, "and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations." Let's take the 28 generations David to Christ, a thousand years plenty close enough. This yields a generation of about 36 years. It's also a truism that generations live in the same time periods, simultaneously, children with parents with grandparents, some great grandparents. Let's then take the case of 14 generations from Babylon, around 586 BC, to Christ: you get a generation of about 42 years. Israel was a generation, 40 years, in the wilderness.

As you can see, a generation is most often considered less than a maximum life span, so what is the point? You can't nail any number of years, Biblical lifespan also stated to possibly exceed 70 years, but, again, is that even what we'd call a generation, when the Bible indicates otherwise, in real terms?

I also concluded the generation, itself, is not necessarily marked by either the formation of Israel or capture of Jerusalem, have been prone to the 1967 capture of Jerusalem being the fig tree budding, with it planted in 1948, but it dawned on me there's no saying what level of sprouting of the Israel tree constitutes any generation marker, and it could very well be a greater convergence of end times events, post 1967. We can't discount the symbology of the fig tree and Israel of the Bible, wouldn't discount that, as some do, but neither can we say Christ wasn't generally making the point of seeing all those things coming to pass, like how we know spring has arrived, generally speaking, can't conclude He was speaking to future generations to start the clock at 1967.

It makes for interesting musings, but it's all just speculation. Truly, we don't know the day or the hour, and important to note everybody playing that game, to date, has failed. That's a pretty bad record. People should not chase after date setters, get roped into this unscriptural activity, a favorite pastime of false prophets, and they mainly people involved in publicity and money schemes of various sorts.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

It makes for interesting musings, but it's all just speculation. Truly, we don't know the day or the hour, and important to note everybody playing that game, to date, has failed. That's a pretty bad record. People should not chase after date setters, get roped into this unscriptural activity, a favorite pastime of false prophets, and they mainly people involved in publicity and money schemes of various sorts.

Agreed. I have said many times on this forum that these date setters are racking up millions of dollars writing books, hosting seminars, and selling DVD"s. Have you ever watched some of them on youtube. They are collecting donations from their web sites, nd hawking books and DVD's. If we are so close, why do we need the books? Why go to the conferences? We don't need them.

 

[Salem]

Agreed. I have said many times on this forum that these date setters are racking up millions of dollars writing books, hosting seminars, and selling DVD"s. Have you ever watched some of them on youtube. They are collecting donations from their web sites, nd hawking books and DVD's. If we are so close, why do we need the books? Why go to the conferences? We don't need them.

Could not agree with you more, have seen exactly the same thing. False prophecy is a huge industry, to where I consider the web, weighed in the balance, a curse to the faith and sound doctrine. There are many self-proclaimed "ministries" on YouTube that are teaching from a wilderness of error, the effect like a multiplication of cults, in number as many as you can have individuals. And we don't need any of that.

Unfortunately, you see what they're teaching spreading all over forums, even formative Christians sucked in, and they usually won't respond to clear scripture that refutes the YouTube brainwashing they cling to. You'd think that, at least, the direct money grubbing, the merchandising, the subscriber base pitches they make more Adsense click revenue from, the commercial motive these people are working, behind the sensationalized theology and cult exclusivity to grab audience share, would say something to people. It's a universal adage to just follow the money, but it appears a sucker is, truly, born every minute. These frauds also have the non-Christians saying, "I told you so. They're all nuts, don't even agree on anything."

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

 

[keras]

Could not agree with you more, have seen exactly the same thing. False prophecy is a huge industry, to where I consider the web, weighed in the balance, a curse to the faith and sound doctrine. There are many self-proclaimed "ministries" on YouTube that are teaching from a wilderness of error, the effect like a multiplication of cults, in number as many as you can have individuals. And we don't need any of that.

But someone, somewhere will get it right, maybe you should try to unravel the mystery! Daniel 12:10...a few wise leaders will understand.
Like most churches throughout history, churches today compromise on what is taught to their flocks, preferring teachers who rationalize, allegorize, spiritualize or simply ignore the prophetic scriptures. The church that believes Bible prophecies concerning the last days can only be understood allegorically or that prophecy is anything less than factual, is easy prey for Satan’s craftiness.
Satan, the great counterfeiter, deceives with half truths, often using scripture out of context, as he did with Jesus in the wilderness temptations. The same will be true with churches that say: yes these passages are literal, but they have no application to us, because they are trusting in the false assurance that they will be raptured away before those events occur. Once such people realize their great mistake, it will be too late to avoid the persecution of the Anti Christ. True believers in those churches will not lose their salvation, but they will endure suffering from which faithfulness to God and His Word, would have protected them. Thus genuine believers in the compromising churches may have to go through what Jesus described in His Olivet Discourse as the ‘Great Tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world.’

It is within the context of the Tribulation that Jesus warns the Thyatiran and Laodicean church leaders– Rev 2:20-22 You tolerate Jezebel, whose teaching lures My servants into false beliefs, she refuses to repent, so I will throw her onto a bed of pain and those who commit [spiritual] adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they renounce what she is doing.

So those teachers who have misled Christians by not properly discerning the Word, will be punished and their flock won’t lose their salvation, but may be subject to the Tribulation. James 3:1 & Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10

On the other hand, believers who are spiritually prepared, faithful peoples, can look forward to the fulfilment of God’s great promises to His people. Promises of protection during the next prophesied event – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, and then the great gathering into the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 36, Zephaniah 3:19-20, Malachi 4:1-6, Hosea 14:4-9 It is those people who will welcome Jesus at His Return with the shout: ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord’.

Genesis 18:17-19 ....I shall not conceal from Abraham what I am about to do, because he must tell his descendants what is just and right.
Just as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is used as an example of the terrible Day of the Lord, Jude 1:7, that will strike all the earth, so the Lord has warned us to take care to discern His Word, in order that we may tell our children to keep the Way of the Lord and to be aware of His plans for this end time. Jeremiah 23:14

2 Peter 3:7 & 10-12 The world is reserved for a Judgement of fire and the Day of the Lord’ wrath will come unexpectedly. On that Day, the heavens will disappear with a great noise, great flames of fire will bring all the earth into judgement. Since all things will be tested in this manner, think what sort of people you must be, what devout and dedicated lives you should live!

This prophecy does not refer to the New Heavens and New Earth to come after the Millennium and does not match with the descriptions of the glorious Return of Jesus, as many prophecies clearly state that He will not be seen during this forthcoming fire judgement. Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

 

[Salem]

But someone, somewhere will get it right, maybe you should try to unravel the mystery!

Really? Perish the thought, what if I already had a tad unraveled, before there was, and regardless that there is, an internet or YouTube? Do you know how thankful I am to have grown up around books and around authentic, educated Bible teachers? Do you know how scary the thought would be, to get around to unraveling, at this late date, via the likes of YouTube? Tell you what, if I were in need of doing unraveling today, you'd not find me here! I'd be looking up every living and dead Reformed, trustworthy, Spirit filled scholar on whatever the issue is, not doing a message board, know what I mean?

 

[keras]

Tell you what, if I were in need of doing unraveling today, you'd not find me here! I'd be looking up every living and dead Reformed, trustworthy, Spirit filled scholar on whatever the issue is, not doing a message board, know what I mean?

So, can I assume you know what the Lord's Plans for our time are?
Re the 'trustworthy experts', I have yet to find any complete agreement among them in my extensive reading on prophecy.

I believe Jesus' Words: Father I thank You....because You have hidden these things from the learned and wise and revealed them to the uneducated. Matthew 11:25

 

[Douggg]

Israel was a generation, 40 years, in the wilderness.

Hi Salem, the 40 years in the wilderness - that generation were already adults, so that has to be added to the 40. King David died - at 70 years old. Whethe there is a fixed numerical value for a generation - I understand your point. To me, it just looks reasonable as 70 years.

40 years +1967 = 2017. minus the years = 2010. Didn't happen. eliminate. every combination has been likewise eliminated, except the 1967 +70 for a generation.

 

[ebedmelech]

We need some clarity on this subject.

1. *Israel* and *Jacob* are used interchangeably until the Babylonian captivity, and refer to the twelve tribes of Israel.

This is a grave error and is not the case. The Kingdom of Israel included the 12 tribes until it was divided under Rehoboam because of the sins of Solomon. This is the case as God prophesies to Solomon at 1 Kings 11:9-13. God used Ahijah the prophet to raise up Jeroboam through whom He would divide the kingdom at 1 Kings 11:26-40

God carries out the prophecy at 1 Kings 12 after the death of Solomon as Rehoboam became King and refused to restore Jeroboam and from that point you have the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah. After that Israel and Judah are NOT synonymous or interchangeable. All one has to do is read 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles as well as the prophets.

7. After the Second Coming, the *houses* of Judah and Israel will be reunited and the redeemed and restored *kingdom of Israel* will be established on earth (with David as prince under Christ the King), with each of the 12 tribes occupying their designated territories. Thus we have this question in Acts 1:6,7: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them,It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (Acts 1:6,7).

This is also quite incorrect. The prophecy is through Jeremiah at Jeremiah 31. Israel and Judah became one house through Christ! He is the mediator of the New Covenant (Hebrews 9:15-23). Jesus is God's Servant Israel of Isaiah 49. It is through Jesus TRUE ISRAEL is one house!

 

[Job8]

After that Israel and Judah are NOT synonymous or interchangeable. All one has to do is read 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles as well as the prophets.

Yes, read the prophets and discover that Israel and Jacob are used interchangeably.

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. (Jeremiah 31:10,11).

 

[ebedmelech]

Yes, read the prophets and discover that Israel and Jacob are used interchangeably.

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock. For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. (Jeremiah 31:10,11).

Let me help you see my point...one has to allow scripture to determine if Israel and Judah are synonymous or not. As we read primarily in 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles the separate Judah from Israel by the kings over each. That alone says they are NOT synonymous.

Now the prophets. You quoted Jeremiah 31:10, 11 but you've pulled them out of context, because it's speaking of Israel only, (sometimes also called Samaria). In this passage Israel has been removed from the land already but Judah remains in the land. Jeremiah 1:1-3 tells you that! In this case you have made a mistake, which leads to more mistakes.

 

[Ligurian]

Excellent teaching, n2thelight.
Satan must be laughing about how he has confused so many on this issue. But we must also remember that it was God's plan that the House of Israel be lost to history.

And the dragon is still laughing. Everyday I TRY to remind someone that the Kingdom of Solomon is STILL divided... and show them scriptures... they usually just ignore... and keep on calling the Galilaeans who received Him, the Jews. Because Assyria didn't take everyone; they only took the leaders, not the peasants. You're right about the Losing of the Ten Tribes... lost means hidden.
I don't for a minute believe that Josephus got it right.

 

[claninja]

And the dragon is still laughing. Everyday I TRY to remind someone that the Kingdom of Solomon is STILL divided... and show them scriptures... they usually just ignore... and keep on calling the Galilaeans who received Him, the Jews. Because Assyria didn't take everyone; they only took the leaders, not the peasants. You're right about the Losing of the Ten Tribes... lost means hidden.
I don't for a minute believe that Josephus got it right.

paul quoted Hosea as fulfilled. They were united in the first century under Christ.

Romans 9:24-25
24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? 25As He says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people,

and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved

 

[Ligurian]

paul quoted Hosea as fulfilled. They were united in the first century under Christ.

Romans 9:24-25
24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? 25As He says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people,

and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved

Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.[26] And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Here's that quote in context--
(this takes place before the Assyrian captivity... from which the House of Juda was spared)

Hosea 1:6-10 And she conceived again and bore a daughter. And He said to him, Call her name, Unpitied: for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, but will surely set Myself in array against them.[7] But I will have mercy on the house of Juda, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them with bow, nor with sword, nor by war, nor by horses, nor by horsemen.[8] And she weaned Unpitied, and she conceived again and bore a son.[9] And he said, Call his name, Not My people: for ye are not My people, and I am not your God.[10] Yet the number of the children of Israel was as the sand of the sea, which shall not be measured nor numbered: and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, Ye are not My people, even they shall be called the sons of the living God.(Osee,LXX)

Which Peter also quotes in part:

1 Peter 2:9-10 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness (Matthew 4:12-17) into His marvellous light:[10] Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Ιησους Christ, to the elect strangers (διασπορᾶς) scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (Matthew 10:5-7)

 

[keras]

paul quoted Hosea as fulfilled. They were united in the first century under Christ.

Why then do the Jews themselves still await their rejoining with the 10 Northern tribes?

Paul reiterated Hosea's Prophecy, he did not say it was fulfilled. but that as Christians in the end times, we participate in it. Romans 9:24-26, Jeremiah 50:4-5

 

[Ligurian]

Why then do the Jews themselves still await their rejoining with the 10 Northern tribes?

Paul reiterated Hosea's Prophecy, he did not say it was fulfilled. but that as Christians in the end times, we participate in it. Romans 9:24-26, Jeremiah 50:4-5

Hosea 1:6-10 And she conceived again and bore a daughter. And He said to him, Call her name, Unpitied: for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, but will surely set Myself in array against them. ...[9] And he said, Call his name, Not My people: for ye are not My people, and I am not your God.[10] Yet the number of the children of Israel was as the sand of the sea, which shall not be measured nor numbered: and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, Ye are not My people, even they shall be called the sons of the living God.(Osee,LXX)

(Osee, LXX) Hosea 2:1-23 Say to your brother, My people, and to your sister, Pitied. ...[14] Therefore, behold, I will cause her to err, and will make her as desolate, and will speak comfortably to her.[15] And I will giver her possessions from thence, and the valley of Achor to open her understanding: and she shall be afflicted there according to the days of her infancy, and according to the days of her coming up out of the land of Egypt. ...[23] And I will sow her to Me on the Earth, and will love her that was not loved: and will say to that which was not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art the Lord My God."

Isaiah 51:16 I will put My words into thy mouth, and I will shelter thee under the shadow of Mine hand, with which I fixed the sky and founded the earth: and the Lord shall say to Sion, Thou art My people.

Jeremiah 31:18-20 I have heard the sound of Ephraim lamenting, and saying, Thou hast chastened me, and I was chastened; I as a calf was not willingly taught: turn Thou me, and I shall turn; for Thou art the Lord my God.[19] For after my captivity I repented, and after I knew, I groaned for the day of shame, and shewed thee that I bore reproach from my youth.[20] Ephraim is a beloved son, a pleasing child to me: for because My words are in him, I will surely remember him: therefore I made haste to help him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.