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Featured The "holy place" Abomination of Desolation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by CassiusCritzer, Apr 11, 2018.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to Daniel 9:25, the prince is Christ, the Messiah.

    abomination of desolation: Matthew 24:15, Luke 21:20.
    abomination: the presence of Roman armies in the holy city of Jerusalem.
    desolation: the result of the depredation and destruction inflicted by the Roman armies, which were the instruments of judgment of Messiah the Prince. (Daniel 9:26,27)

    Then scripture cannot be used to support his existence or identity.

    Daniel 11:31 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It was a precursor of what would occur in 70 AD. Antiochus' army desecrated the Temple and stopped the daily sacrifices. On the 15th of Kislev, in December 168 BCE, the Syrians built a pagan altar over the altar of burnt offering in the Temple and placed an image of Zeus Olympius upon it. Ten days later, on the 25th of Kislev, swine's flesh was offered on the altar to Zeus.

    2 Thessalonians 2 was fulfilled in the apostate Roman papacy which began to emerge in the 4th century AD, and continued until the Reformation in the 16th century.

    Nor is truth determined by conjecture and speculation. Rather, it is determined by what can be proven. History is the invincible proof of truth. History confirms Scripture to prove the truth of the complete fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy. In the contiguous final 70th week, Christ confirmed the everlasting New Covenant in His Blood (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 13:20)

    It is the faithful saints who resisted, often to the death, the apostasy into which the post-apostolic church descended; and persevered until and through the time of the Reformation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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  2. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Daniel 9:26 the prince is the Man of Lawlessness -AC

    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    those pesky little things that you overlook is what is throwing your understanding off the rails

    As in the word God - when you see God with Capital 'G' it refers the Holy Almighty God

    small letter 'g' in god refers to a replacement of God with anything else except the
    Holy Almighty God

    The same thing applies to the word Prince in Daniel 9
    the Dan 9:25 Capital letter Prince is Messiah Jesus

    and in Daniel 9:26 the small letter 'p' prince is the replacement/ in place of/ anti christ

    Dan 9 :26 the word Messiah is not present to describe the small letter 'p' 'prince' because it is NOT the messiah
    ...
    Daniel 9 KJV.PNG
     
  3. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The capitalization is irrelevant. Jesus Christ the Messiah is described as both a prince and a Prince in Scripture.

    "those pesky little things that you overlook is what is throwing your understanding off the rails"

    Revelation 1:5
    5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood

    Daniel 9
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
     
  4. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Now you say that every bible translation is wrong just because you want to be right when you are wrong -
    according to your false theory then when scripture spells god with small g it is irrelevant because you don't understand the facts or truth
    You are so Wrong!
     
  5. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Go argue with the KJV.
     
  6. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Dan 9 KJV.PNG
    KJV is exactly as I said it is ;)
     
  7. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    KJV is exactly as I said it is look closely ;) Dan 9 KJV.PNG
     
  8. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And as I said it is. Good, we both agree on something.

    You missed Revelation 1:5. Look closely.
     
  9. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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  10. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Is there one or two princes? Verse 25 is Christ. (NKJV is calling them rulers and other modern versions)
    There must be two, because there is only one people of the prince that will come that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

    That is the Romans and Titus who destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

    "and the end thereof shall be with a flood" (the end times will come as a flood of people in Jerusalem )
    "and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." ( unto the war desolations have come )"
    A lot of people read this and don't understand what desolations mean. It means to make desolate.
    Jerusalem has been made desolate many times in the church age.

    It's verse 27 that is hard to understand and ambigous.
     
  11. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are two perspectives regarding the identity of the people of the prince Messiah who destroyed the city and the sanctuary, both scripturally and historically applicable and verifiable:

    1. The pagan Roman armies under Titus, which were God's instruments of judgment and destruction. In similar fashion elsewhere, e.g. Jeremiah 43:10-13, God described the pagan Nebuchadnezzar, whom He chose as His instrument of judgment and destruction, as being "My servant." That would of course also include the armies under his control.
    If the pagan Nebuchadnezzar and his armies could be characterized as "God's servant", then the pagan Roman armies under Titus could legitimately be characterized as "the people of the prince" Messiah.

    2. The Jews themselves, whom Josephus documents as being responsible for an enormity of the suffering that occurred: "I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly; that neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries; nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was from the beginning of the world." Contemporary Jews concur:

    "The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

    Examples of "flood" as used in verse 27 used similarly elsewhere in Scripture: Psalms 18:4; 2 Samuel 22:5; Isaiah 59:19; Jeremiah 46:8.

    It was Prince Messiah who used the abomination of the Roman armies to unleash a flood of devastation and destruction until the desolation was consummated and complete.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  12. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    That is a big assumption and has no basis in scripture.
     
  13. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    I will address other points in your post later but will tackle your points here quickly. And I have known what your talking about well before this discussion.

    26
    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    "Messiah be cut off, but not for himself "
    paraphrasing: The messiah is killed but not for himself but to save mankind. This can only be Christ.

    "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"

    who is the prince that will come doing the destroying
    sounds like Titus and his people the romans.

    "war desolations"

    It doesn't talk about one desolation or the sanctuary here. It says desolations plural. So I think its talking about Jerusalem and Israel being desolated which has happened a few times from Christ to now.
     
  14. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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  15. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    • 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Many bible scholars in the past tell us that the word translated 'are' is singular in the original, thus indicating the unity of the seventy weeks. You can't say "Seventy weeks is" in English.
     
  16. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    • 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    Six things are to be accomplished in the seventy weeks. Can somebody say which of those were not completed in the ministry of Jesus the Messiah?
     
  17. seventysevens

    seventysevens Well-Known Member

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    Too bad you cannot prove that fallacy assumption
    just because you prefer it has already happened does not you you can prove it - it makes no sense to think it has
    Give us the detailed scope of how the events come to pass when Jesus returns without the ridiculous notion that he destroys the earth when he returns
     
  18. dougangel

    dougangel Regular Supporter

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    Revelation 19

    19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

    The beast and the false prophet are destroyed at the 2nd Coming therefore it cannot of already occured.
    They are there at the end of the church age.


    Revelation 12

    The Beast out of the Earth

    11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

    18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.[e] That number is 666.

    That's happening before the 2nd comming where the beast and the false prophet are destroyed.
    Right Jgr ?
     
  19. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Undeniably true.

    Titus too was a prince. But Messiah is the only explicitly identified prince in the passage, and it was Messiah who was in ultimate command and control of Titus and the Roman armies, whom He used for His purposes.

    The context is the Roman-Jewish war within Messiah's generation, thus it is that to which the desolations refer.

    Again true, but again the context is describing the characteristics and effects of the Roman invasion within Messiah's generation.
     
  20. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't claim to be a Revelation expert, so I'll defer to you. However, there is no connection between the Daniel and the Revelation passages.
     
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