The "holy place" Abomination of Desolation

[David Kent]

The person in question fits a very unique specific profile. There are two tracks - (1) what does it take to be the King of Israel perceived messiah (2) what does it take for the person to become the 7th King of the Roman Empire, killed, and come back alive as the 8th King of the Roman Empire.

The firdt king olf Rome was Romulus, not a Julian King. The sixth that existed at that time was the line of Vespasian, not as I remember a Julian, but a Roman General. The seventh was the line of Christian emperors, which reveived a mortal blow but revived in the Papacy, claiming the deity of Caesar and title of King of Kings, ruler over heaven and earth and hell is his claim, hence his triple crown.

 

[BABerean2]

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,
Heb 12:19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore.
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "AND IF SO MUCH AS A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT SHALL BE STONED OR SHOT WITH AN ARROW."
Heb 12:21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I AM EXCEEDINGLY AFRAID AND TREMBLING.")

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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[David Kent]

To establish amillennialist doctrine you have to go through some incredible contortions. I didn't know that interpreting the prince who is to come as the Antichrist messed with amillennialist beliefs, but I suppose that just about anything that the scripture tells us is yet to come is a threat to your position. Our duty as Christians is to believe what we read, not read what we believe. If the scripture says future, and your favorite doctrine says past, it's time to throw your doctrine away and believe Gods word.

That is a lot of mixed up Mumbo Jumbo. I don't know what you are getting at.

 

[seventysevens]

Let us look at this unclear passage from the Old Testament through the eyes of the New Testament.
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The scripture is in No way unclear - as it is Most clear describing Jesus return to earth , and that the nations will go to Jerusalem each year to worship Jesus

-and if they won't do it their punishment will be that they will not receive any rain so their crops will not grow and they will be forced to recognize Jesus must be worshiped - very simple - very clear

 

[BABerean2]

The scripture is in No way unclear - as it is Most clear describing Jesus return to earth , and that the nations will go to Jerusalem each year to worship Jesus

-and if they won't do it their punishment will be that they will not receive any rain so their crops will not grow and they will be forced to recognize Jesus must be worshiped - very simple - very clear

Show how your interpretation of the passage from the Old Testament fits what Jesus and Paul said below.

Nobody who opposes Christ at His return will be left, because they will be destroyed.


Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
Mat 25:38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:



2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

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[Douggg]

that's why the Gog war occurs/ ends at the 77th year. They are anointing Jesus and God will not let them profane His name anymore.

Better check again, before Jesus returns the world is in worst time of trouble - not the living in peace condition when Gog/Magog takes place - much like right now.

 

[seventysevens]

Show how your interpretation of the passage from the Old Testament fits what Jesus and Paul said below.

Nobody who opposes Christ at His return will be left, because they will be destroyed.

The scripture is not referring to any who has opposed Christ because it is AFTER those who have opposed Christ have died and

It is only those who survived the Great Trib who are living on earth having families raising children for 1000 years while satan is imprisoned in the abyss

You apparently do not understand the context of scripture and how the End times takes place

Your refusal to accept Biblical evidence that the new Jerusalem does not appear until AFTER the 1000 years that satan is locked away and after he deceives the nations and after satan is cast into the lake of fire

 

[Douggg]

The only people that survive Christ's coming are those who belong to Him, based on 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.

Who are the heathen that Jesus and the saints rules with a rod of iron?

Psalms 2:
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[jgr]

I didn't know that interpreting the prince who is to come as the Antichrist messed with amillennialist beliefs

It messes with the Scripture itself. There is only one prince named in the passage, and in fact in the whole chapter. His Name is Messiah. Aka Christ, not antichrist.

 

[BABerean2]

Psalms 2:
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

You seem to have missed what is plainly written in the text above.

The potter uses the rod of Iron to break the flawed pottery into shivers (pieces).

The potter destroys the flawed pottery with the rod of Iron.
He does not correct the flawed pottery, like a schoolmaster corrects his problem pupils.

.

 

[BABerean2]

The scripture is not referring to any who has opposed Christ because it is AFTER those who have opposed Christ have died and

It is only those who survived the Great Trib who are living on earth having families raising children for 1000 years while satan is imprisoned in the abyss

You apparently do not understand the context of scripture and how the End times takes place

Your refusal to accept Biblical evidence that the new Jerusalem does not appear until AFTER the 1000 years that satan is locked away and after he deceives the nations and after satan is cast into the lake of fire

If you cut "the time of the judgment of the dead" with "reward" for some and "destruction" for others in Revelation 11:18 out of your Bible, you might be able to make the above work.
Maybe nobody will notice.

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[seventysevens]

If you cut "the time of the judgment of the dead" with "reward" for some and "destruction" for others in Revelation 11:18 out of your Bible,

.

If you actually read the bible without Forcing your personal private interpretations then you would understand what it really says - It is literal and point blank
Jesus WILL RULE AND REIGN ON EARTH BEFORE THE NEW JERUSALEM APPEARS

 

[thesunisout]

It messes with the Scripture itself. There is only one prince named in the passage, and in fact in the whole chapter. His Name is Messiah. Aka Christ, not antichrist.

That's what you have to believe to maintain your doctrine, friend

 

[jgr]

That's what you have to believe to maintain your doctrine, friend

What is untrue in the statements I've made, also friend?

 

[thesunisout]

What is untrue in the statements I've made, also friend?

You're conflating Jesus with the Antichrist in that passage. Your explanation of the Messiah being the only prince specifically identified doesn't preclude the mention of another prince, whether he is specifically identified or not. Then you pasted a lot of information on the amillennialist position on this passage. I think your beliefs about this are deeply rooted because a futurist interpretation would completely overturn your doctrine. So it seems you're absolutely committed to defending it which basically takes away any interest I had in conversing about this subject. I didn't come to the thread to debate amillennialism..I didn't even know amillennialists had a dog in this fight.

 

[jgr]

You're conflating Jesus with the Antichrist in that passage.

I see Messiah, aka Jesus, literally in verse 25. I see Messiah literally again in verse 26. I don't see Antichrist? Where do you see him? Can you cite the verse that has the word "Antichrist" literally within it?

If not, how is it possible to conflate Jesus with the Antichrist if Antichrist cannot be literally seen?

Your explanation of the Messiah being the only prince specifically identified doesn't preclude the mention of another prince, whether he is specifically identified or not.

Is not Scripture our benchmark? How can there be the mention of another prince, if another prince is not specifically mentioned? How can another prince be identified if that prince is not specifically mentioned?

Then you pasted a lot of information on the amillennialist position on this passage.

Whatever information I've posted about this passage reflects the consensus of the overwhelming majority of the true historical Christian Church for over 1,800 years. That includes those of both premil and amil persuasion. The millennium itself is not part of the 70 weeks.

I think your beliefs about this are deeply rooted because a futurist interpretation would completely overturn your doctrine.

My beliefs are deeply rooted in those of the historical true Christian Church, which recognizes the complete and perfect fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks in Christ's finished work at Calvary. The futurist conjecture and speculation of the last less than 200 years strives to, but ultimately cannot, overturn historical prophetic truth, forever realized in Christ's New Covenant accomplishments at Calvary.

 

[Douggg]

You seem to have missed what is plainly written in the text above.

The potter uses the rod of Iron to break the flawed pottery into shivers (pieces).

The potter destroys the flawed pottery with the rod of Iron.
He does not correct the flawed pottery, like a schoolmaster corrects his problem pupils.

.

You seemed have missed that Jesus rules them. So therefore they must exist here on earth during His rule.

 

[thesunisout]

I see Messiah, aka Jesus, literally in verse 25. I see Messiah literally again in verse 26. I don't see Antichrist? Where do you see him? Can you cite the verse that has the word "Antichrist" literally within it?
If not, how is it possible to conflate Jesus with the Antichrist if Antichrist cannot be literally seen?
Is not Scripture our benchmark? How can there be the mention of another prince, if another prince is not specifically mentioned? How can another prince be identified if that prince is not specifically mentioned?

The prince who is to come is the Antichrist and we know that because of what it says about the abomination of desolation in verse 27. He isn't mentioned by name and doesn't need to be because he is identified in other passages of scripture tied to the abomination of desolation like in Daniel 11: 31-39 and 2 Thessalonians 2

Whatever information I've posted about this passage reflects the consensus of the overwhelming majority of the true historical Christian Church for over 1,800 years. That includes those of both premil and amil persuasion. The millennium itself is not part of the 70 weeks.

Truth isn't determined by consensus or numbers. The last week of Daniels prophecy is future to the destruction of the temple, when the covenant is established for one week. This is the tribulation period which we know from the fact that there are other scriptures which establish that as time the covenant is made.

My beliefs are deeply rooted in those of the historical true Christian Church, which recognizes the complete and perfect fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks in Christ's finished work at Calvary. The futurist conjecture and speculation of the last less than 200 years strives to, but ultimately cannot, overturn historical prophetic truth, forever realized in Christ's New Covenant accomplishments at Calvary.

What church is the historical and true Christian church?

 

[David Kent]

7

The prince who is to come is the Antichrist and we know that because of what it says about the abomination of desolation in verse 27. He isn't mentioned by name and doesn't need to be because he is identified in other passages of scripture tied to the abomination of desolation like in Daniel 11: 31-39 and 2 Thessalonians 2

That is a grave assumption, invented by the Jesuits and Darby. The people of the prince who was to come were to destroy the temple. That prince is not said to do anything. The temple is destroyed have you not noticed? The people of the prince, Titus, did come and did destroy the temple against his orders.

Jesus said of the temple "Not one stone shall be left upon another." If you read history, you will see that the Romans dug up the foundations of the temple and completely levelled it.

 

[David Kent]

The prince who is to come is the Antichrist and we know that because of what it says about the abomination of desolation in verse 27. He isn't mentioned by name and doesn't need to be because he is identified in other passages of scripture tied to the abomination of desolation like in Daniel 11: 31-39 and 2 Thessalonians 2

If you read and understand Daniel 11 carefully you will see that Daniel 28 refers t Antiochus Epiphanes the then King of the North, after attacking Jerusalem he went south again to attacK Egypt. (29) But he didn't succeed that time as the ships of Chittim (Cyprus), the Roman fleet, came against him. The Roman ambassador stopped Antiochus in the dessert and drew a line in the sand and said "If you cross that line you are at war with Rome." Antiochus asked for time to consider but the ambassador said I need your answer now of=r I will need to tell the senate that you are at war with Rome. The arms (31) were the Roman arms, and it was they who later were to place the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem, Luke 21:20