The Holocaust: Was it the wrath and judgment of God?

[LastSeven]

You must have heard of the new covenant where the perfect Law is written on heats and minds such that the Law does not have to be learned, it is automatic; evil will no longer exist.

Having the perfect law written on your heart doesn't make you perfect. Are you perfect? Do you never sin? Or is the law not written on your heart?

Evil is banned in the future; you think there will be the free will to chose evil; I think the will will not be free but will have the ultimate price because God will still have the second death option should such a one be missed during judgement.

Let me get this straight.

Isaiah 25:8 says "He will swallow up death forever" and Revelation 21 says "There will be no more death", but sparow says that if you sin on the new earth you will suffer the second death, even if you took part in the first resurrection, which according to Revelation 20 means you don't have to fear the second death.

Sounds like a bit of a mess to me.

I think you need to reconcile scripture without letting your own ideas get in the way. Cause nothing you said jives with scripture.

 

[sparow]

Having the perfect law written on your heart doesn't make you perfect. Are you perfect? Do you never sin? Or is the law not written on your heart?

Let me get this straight.

Isaiah 25:8 says "He will swallow up death forever" and Revelation 21 says "There will be no more death", but sparow says that if you sin on the new earth you will suffer the second death, even if you took part in the first resurrection, which according to Revelation 20 means you don't have to fear the second death.

Sounds like a bit of a mess to me.

I think you need to reconcile scripture without letting your own ideas get in the way. Cause nothing you said jives with scripture.

I think Last Seven needs to grow up. Having the Law written on our heart and mind is the end product of the covenant along with the new earth and new heavens and eternal life. As far as I am aware Jesus is the only one the have entered life in the Kingdom, who has the Law written on his heart and mind'. For the rest of us the covenant has to run it's course; all have live once and be judged. For your theology to be correct you would need to have eternal life now; then you could say the Law is written on your heart and mind.

Isaiah 25:8 speaks of the first death which we all die; eternal life defeats this death. The second death is different and is defined as not being capable of being resurrected again; the blueprints are destroyed or something. A safe assumption is that those who do not die the second death will remain capable of being resurrected, which means dying the first death is also a possibility for those who have eternal life, should they fall again. The Law and the covenant are eternal.

 

[LastSeven]

I think Last Seven needs to grow up.

Oh, I see. If I don't agree with you, I need to grow up. I'm going to refrain from insulting you back. Instead let's look at some of your claims.

Having the Law written on our heart and mind is the end product of the covenant along with the new earth and new heavens and eternal life.

Paul said the Gentiles already had the law written on their hearts 2000 years ago.

Romans 2:15
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

For your theology to be correct you would need to have eternal life now

Can you support that with scripture?

Isaiah 25:8 speaks of the first death which we all die; eternal life defeats this death.

Actually, the resurrection defeats the first death. Paul says exactly that in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Cor 15:53
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

So, once we are resurrected we can no longer suffer the first death, only the second.

A safe assumption is that those who do not die the second death will remain capable of being resurrected

This doesn't make sense because one can only suffer the second death after being resurrected. First we die the first death, then all are resurrected, then some suffer the second death.

which means dying the first death is also a possibility for those who have eternal life, should they fall again

As we've already established, the first death was swallowed up in victory at the resurrection, so...no. And if you took part in the first resurrection, you don't have to fear the second death either. (you know where it says that, right?) So there is literally no possibility of death for the righteous on the new earth. I think that's pretty clear.

 

[surrender1]

This thread is to discuss a relatively controversial subject: whether or not the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God upon the Jews. The question is a controversial one. Going into Scripture, we find examples of what God will do to the Jews if they disobey his commands:

"“‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. 25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs." Deut. 32:23-25 (ESV)

We clearly see in Scripture that God is not a God who is incompatible with a Holocaust. The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God.

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I'll leave the rest open. Thoughts?

1) Yes. All OT scripture must be filtered through our ultimate revelation of God in Christ Jesus.
2) Yes. There was nothing corrective in starving and gassing a 5-year-old child thus it would be cruel.
3) No. Zero chance.

 

[Jesus4Ever]

No because Hitler was not of God. In fact, he wanted to be worshiped as a God. He wanted to take over the world and rid of anyone that wasn't the "Aryan Race". Why do you think he demanded Germany to call him "Mein Fuhrer"???

 

[Jesus4Ever]

Supposing that the Holocaust was not the wrath and judgment of God, let me ask you this: why would God allow the Holocaust, and what does that say about his nature and His character?

Because God gave us Free Will to do anything, even sinful things.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Hitler was a tool of the devil
God allowed it because of antisemitism
Which continues today in europe
Thus the terrorism in call of Europe today...
Ex. Neo nazis.....

 

[sparow]

Oh, I see. If I don't agree with you, I need to grow up. I'm going to refrain from insulting you back. Instead let's look at some of your claims.


Paul said the Gentiles already had the law written on their hearts 2000 years ago.

Romans 2:15
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.


Can you support that with scripture?

Actually, the resurrection defeats the first death. Paul says exactly that in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Cor 15:53
For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

So, once we are resurrected we can no longer suffer the first death, only the second.


This doesn't make sense because one can only suffer the second death after being resurrected. First we die the first death, then all are resurrected, then some suffer the second death.

As we've already established, the first death was swallowed up in victory at the resurrection, so...no. And if you took part in the first resurrection, you don't have to fear the second death either. (you know where it says that, right?) So there is literally no possibility of death for the righteous on the new earth. I think that's pretty clear.

The new covenant mentioned by Jeremiah, having the Law written on their hearts and mind WITHOUT HAVING TO LEARN IT, is in a context of the Jews in captivity not being able to keep the covenant; and suggests not knowing the Law was the problem; implicit in Jeremiahs statement is, if the Law is known it can be kept.

In Romans Paul is not describing the new covenant because if the Gentiles (that is the unconverted) knew the Law or the covenant without having to learn it, Paul would have been redundant and would have had no reason for being there.

There are two resurrections the first is incorruptible, the second is corruptible and erasable.

 

[Achilles6129]

1) Yes. All OT scripture must be filtered through our ultimate revelation of God in Christ Jesus.
2) Yes. There was nothing corrective in starving and gassing a 5-year-old child thus it would be cruel.
3) No. Zero chance.

OK so let me ask you: what about the OT passages that indicate that such things are the wrath and judgment of God? Examples would be Deut. 28 and Lev. 26. Your thoughts?

 

[Achilles6129]

Also, I need to remind everyone that every world leader is in some sense raised up by God. That would include Hitler.

 

[Steve Petersen]

OK so let me ask you: what about the OT passages that indicate that such things are the wrath and judgment of God? Examples would be Deut. 28 and Lev. 26. Your thoughts?

Which of the sins listed in the passages you cited from the OT was Israel being punished for by the Holocaust?

 

[Achilles6129]

Which of the sins listed in the passages you cited from the OT was Israel being punished for by the Holocaust?

I didn't say Israel was being punished by the Holocaust. My reply was in regards to the statement that the Holocaust could not be the wrath of God because God would be too cruel if it were. I'm showing that similar things happened in Scripture.

 

[surrender1]

OK so let me ask you: what about the OT passages that indicate that such things are the wrath and judgment of God? Examples would be Deut. 28 and Lev. 26. Your thoughts?

In the book of Job, three friends try to comfort Job with their theological opinions. Nearly everybody today agrees that their theology about God is false. What Job’s three friends say about God is an error. (I propose that Job himself was wrong as well). Yet although they are wrong about God, their theological ideas are still found within inspired words of the Bible. Why did God inspire false ideas about Himself to be recorded in Scripture? Because so many people around the world and throughout time (including in our own day) believe these false things about God. The theology of Job’s three friends is still the commonly held theology of most people. God put it in Scripture to show us how wrong it is so that we might correct and change our own theology.

This is why these other wrong ideas about God are also included in Scripture. God included them to show us the bad theology that is in the hearts of most people, so that we might see it and correct it in our own hearts. Some of the truest and greatest revelations in Scripture are found when it reveals our own hearts to us. This happens most in those portions of the Bible where people are doing horrible things in the name of God and blaming God for the most horrible of crimes.

 

[DennisTate]

No it was done by humans to other humans.

True..... and near death experiencer Howard Storm asked about the holocaust during his near death experience.

Howard Storm:
I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. ...."These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."
...
I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart...."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events.// (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)

 

[LastSeven]

Howard Storm is full of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse].

 

[Traveling teacher]

Love your enemies
Pray for those who dispitefully use you
If your enemy asked to go one mile go two miles
Jesus
Mattew 5-6

Pray for the Jews to come home to their Father
My hearts desire is that Israel be saved
Paul
Romans 10-11

 

[Steve Petersen]

Love your enemies
Pray for those who dispitefully use you
If your enemy asked to go one mile go two miles
Jesus
Mattew 5-6

Pray for the Jews to come home to their Father
My hearts desire is that Israel be saved
Paul
Romans 10-11

They already worship the Father.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Cant worship the father without accepting His son

Most unbelieving Jews do not call God their Father
Usually call Him elohim"....

If you knew the Father you would kno me....
Jesus
Book of john

 

[Phantasman]

This thread is to discuss a relatively controversial subject: whether or not the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God upon the Jews. The question is a controversial one. Going into Scripture, we find examples of what God will do to the Jews if they disobey his commands:

"“‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. 25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs." Deut. 32:23-25 (ESV)

We clearly see in Scripture that God is not a God who is incompatible with a Holocaust. The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God.

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I'll leave the rest open. Thoughts?

The OT god killed men. Jesus Father never killed anyone. Killing is a sign of imperfection and ignorance (of love).

 

[HeatRamosHidden]

They already worship the Father.

Jews cannot worship the Father.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
Psalm 2:12