The Holocaust: Was it the wrath and judgment of God?

[1213]

...The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God....

I don’t think it is actually punishment if people reject God and get godless result. If for example it is said for children, “don’t touch the fire, your hand will burn”, is it really punishment when the hand burn when children disobeys? I think same is with God, if you reject God and want to live without his rules, you will get life where God is not present and if God is not present, all evil things become possible. Evil is actually godless way and good is life with God. I think that can be seen also in this life, when we look places where God is rejected, they turn in to hellish reality.

I have no way to really check were they in conscious rebellion against God. If they were not, then obviously holocaust was not punishment for them, but was allowed because of some other reason. I don’t know surely what there reason was, if people were innocent, but perhaps it was to guide people to better direction.

However, I think Christians (disciples of Jesus) should not worry about death, because in Biblical point of view the death of body is not the end. As we may know, Jesus also died and suffered, although he was innocent. Sometimes it may be that even innocent suffer. In that case I think we should remember this:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Matt. 10:28-31

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? For what will a man give in exchange for his life?
Mark 8:35-37

He said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

 

[Isaacsname]

You seem to be forgetting all the other genocides waged in our history

 

[Achilles6129]

You seem to be forgetting all the other genocides waged in our history

We could talk about those as well, though this thread was specifically about the Holocaust because it's the one that was most recent.

 

[Julie.S]

We could talk about those as well, though this thread was specifically about the Holocaust because it's the one that was most recent.

Perhaps you should look at this then. You may be wrong about it being the most recent. It was probably one of the worst in history but its not the most recent it seems.

 

[Achilles6129]

Perhaps you should look at this then. You may be wrong about it being the most recent. It was probably one of the worst in history but its not the most recent it seems.

The most recent Jewish genocide.

 

[brinny]

This thread is to discuss a relatively controversial subject: whether or not the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God upon the Jews. The question is a controversial one. Going into Scripture, we find examples of what God will do to the Jews if they disobey his commands:

"“‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. 25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs." Deut. 32:23-25 (ESV)

We clearly see in Scripture that God is not a God who is incompatible with a Holocaust. The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God.

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I'll leave the rest open. Thoughts?

The Holocaust: Was it the wrath and judgment of God?

Was it?

Was the holocaust utter depravity to the nth degree and thus a declaration and very testimony to a God-less-ness and demonstrates the utter evil of man, and thus why salvation was sooo sorely needed that God sent His only begotten Son to die for man, who is capable of such things.

Was the Holocaust "Godly" then?

Is this what you are asking, if the Holocaust was "Godly"?

Thank you kindly.

 

[Achilles6129]

No, I'm asking the three questions I posed in my opening post.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

The only problem with that is this. The Holocaust was not all Jewish people. It was enemy soldiers who where also killed. It was innocent families who got caught up in it. The Jews suffered a lot and probably the most that's fact we know that happened but its not the only group who suffered.
According to this site. It affected the "Jews, Roma, black Germans, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses and the mentally and physically disabled." There are more also I am sure but that's what that one site has listed.
Wikipedia also has this page.

True, the Holocaust happened to more than just the Jews.

Your Wiki article says this: " the term Holocaust generally refers to the systematic mass murder of the Jewish people in Nazi-occupied Europe"

I think for purposes of this discussion it would probably be best to use "Holocaust" in the way it is generally used.
Especially since when talking about "punishment of God" in the light of OT history, it seems one is about a consideration of the Jewish people or Israel.

It would seem to be in the direction of minimizing the Jewish factor by saying "well a lot of others were cruelly murdered too."

 

[Julie.S]

Your Wiki article says this: " the term Holocaust generally refers to the systematic mass murder of the Jewish people in Nazi-occupied Europe"

I think for purposes of this discussion it would probably be best to use "Holocaust" in the way it is generally used.
Especially since when talking about "punishment of God" in the light of OT history, it seems one is about a consideration of the Jewish people or Israel.

It would seem to be in the direction of minimizing the Jewish factor by saying "well a lot of others were cruelly murdered too."

I have not minimized the Jewish people that died or got hurt at all and I never would. Considering I may have family that died who where Jewish. It hurts a bit that you mentioned that what I said does minimize their pain as I don't think anyone would ever do that who has a good head on their shoulders. The Jewish people make up mostly the largest portion that where affected.

I know what the Holocaust was trust me. It was genocide.

I'm not trying to attack you by saying that either.

 

[LastSeven]

I just found this old thread. Interesting question, but in my opinion a very legitimate question. The Bible is full of examples of God killing Jews or allowing Jews to be killed. Why should modern day be any different? Of course it would require for the holocaust to have actually happened, but that's another discussion.

As for prophecies regarding this supposed holocaust, the Jews have just such a prophecy, claiming that they would return to their land "minus six million", which is why they'd been crying about six million Jews missing, dying, dead or in danger for over a hundred years prior to WW2.

 

[sparow]

I just found this old thread. Interesting question, but in my opinion a very legitimate question. The Bible is full of examples of God killing Jews or allowing Jews to be killed. Why should modern day be any different? Of course it would require for the holocaust to have actually happened, but that's another discussion.

As for prophecies regarding this supposed holocaust, the Jews have just such a prophecy, claiming that they would return to their land "minus six million", which is why they'd been crying about six million Jews missing, dying, dead or in danger for over a hundred years prior to WW2.

I do not believe anything is excluded from the fulfilment of prophesy; the Holocaust was a subset of WW2; what was WW2 about; Germany rose up out of the great depression; Hitler gave every German a job and a car using money borrowed from the Bank of England. The last thing I want to do is excuse Hitler but I do believe he was a victim; who attacked Germany at the Polish Border; this false flag or false false flag started the war and the enemy was not specifically the Jews; but there was a longstanding problem that required a final solution and the Jews got blamed. The holocaust hides the problem that the holocaust was suppose to solve.

Many prophesies were fulfilled; in the great depression many people, in Australia, the US and Germany and many other places were not able to buy or sell; the war provided a solution to this; I believe prophesy is more advanced than commentators chose to believe.

 

[Radrook]

That would necessitate that we continue to view the Jews as God's chosen people from whom God expects obedience to the Law Covenant even after Christianity was established, the Law was fulfilled in Jesus and had served its prophetic function and the Temple was destroyed in fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.

1 Corinthians 3:16 ►
New International Version
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?

There is approx. almost 2000 years of intervening time between those events and the holocaust and during that time God has considered Christians, both descendants of Abraham and gentiles as his chosen people.

Gal 3:
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise

In short, there is absolutely no reason why God would feel a need to punish European Jews in that way.

 

[sparow]

That would necessitate that we continue to view the Jews as God's chosen people from whom God expects obedience to the Law Covenant even after Christianity was established, the Law was fulfilled in Jesus and had served its prophetic function and the Temple was destroyed in fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.



There is approx. almost 2000 years of intervening time between those events and the holocaust and during that time God has considered Christians, both descendants of Abraham and gentiles as his chosen people.



In short, there is absolutely no reason why God would feel a need to punish European Jews in that way.

I don't know why you reach that conclusion; I do not. To say the Jews are God's chosen people is only conditionally true; the descendants of Abraham were chosen for a purpose; as a subset of them the descendants of Jacob were chosen for a purpose and as a subset of Jacob the Jews where chosen to produce the Messiah. So the Jews role is finished Israel failed to be a light unto the nations and became the lost sheep; Ishmael seams to be on track. Today God's Chosen are those who are called and chosen; but these will be mostly from the lost sheep of Israel, with whom to covenant is made; because these have only to make the way straight; gentiles need to convert, instead they abrogate the Law and separate themselves from God and the believe they can usurp the kingdom of God.

Since Christ the Jews or Israel has been persecuted continuously; during the first three centauries the Romans almost wiped the Jews out and by the third centaury the followers were hiding in the wilderness leaving the Pagans to do what they might. The damage that Rome done to the Jews percentage wise was worse than what Hitler did. After 1260 years Rome, now calling itself Christian, evokes the Inquisitions; 400 years to change Spain from Saturday to Sunday and once again the damage done o Israel was greater than what Hitler did.

I would not presume to know what God reasons; the scriptures do tell us historically why God punishes His people (the circumcised). I do not know what the Jews may have done to anger God but the European Jews are accused of owning the worlds banks and being responsible for the Great depression which produced WW2.

 

[Radrook]

I don't know why you reach that conclusion; I do not. To say the Jews are God's chosen people is only conditionally true; the descendants of Abraham were chosen for a purpose; as a subset of them the descendants of Jacob were chosen for a purpose and as a subset of Jacob the Jews where chosen to produce the Messiah. So the Jews role is finished Israel failed to be a light unto the nations and became the lost sheep; Ishmael seams to be on track. Today God's Chosen are those who are called and chosen; but these will be mostly from the lost sheep of Israel, with whom to covenant is made; because these have only to make the way straight; gentiles need to convert, instead they abrogate the Law and separate themselves from God and the believe they can usurp the kingdom of God.

Since Christ the Jews or Israel has been persecuted continuously; during the first three centauries the Romans almost wiped the Jews out and by the third centaury the followers were hiding in the wilderness leaving the Pagans to do what they might. The damage that Rome done to the Jews percentage wise was worse than what Hitler did. After 1260 years Rome, now calling itself Christian, evokes the Inquisitions; 400 years to change Spain from Saturday to Sunday and once again the damage done o Israel was greater than what Hitler did.

I would not presume to know what God reasons; the scriptures do tell us historically why God punishes His people (the circumcised). I do not know what the Jews may have done to anger God but the European Jews are accused of owning the worlds banks and being responsible for the Great depression which produced WW2.

What conclusion?

BTW
I don't consider the people who savagely persecute the Jews Christians. I consider them PROFESSED Christians.

 

[least]

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I believe the reason why there has been so much bloodshed throughout history is because mankind had a need to know the difference between good and evil (Genesis 3). It was their choice, as it is for us today. Is God responsible for the merciless genocide of babies today? Is he bringing judgment on them?

Genocide, murder, and even death itself, were never God's desire for us, but it is the path we chose.

With that said, does he use these events for our good and his glory? I believe he does, and those who trust in him will find that his ways are always good.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Can't say God did this in ww2
As Christian genocide of 2-3 million Armenian Christians in ww1

But it is a result of sin.......
Maybe the sin of Europe of antisemitism
Layed at the feet of protestant and Catholic who passively let this happen.......
Maybe church leaders should have denounced Luther's antisemitism. Sooner
Or Catholic should have denounced atrocities in the inquisition

Maybe antisemitism is still in europe and this terrorism is a result of that sin?

Maybe God's judgement fell on all europe and the world in ww2 because we didn't love His firstborn son!!!!!

Israel is my firstborn son...
Let my people go that they may worship Me
Exodus

 

[sparow]

What conclusion?

BTW
I don't consider the people who savagely persecute the Jews Christians. I consider them PROFESSED Christians.

""That would necessitate that we continue to view the Jews as God's chosen people from whom God expects obedience to the Law Covenant even after Christianity was established, the Law was fulfilled in Jesus and had served its prophetic function and the Temple was . destroyed in fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.""

I thought I contested this very well. Jesus kept the Law as well as anyone interested in the kingdom of God would do. How could a law be fulfilled; a covenant could be fulfilled but God's covenant is everlasting and includes continuing eternal life.

Matthew 5:17 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Maybe you believe heaven and earth have passed away. It is interesting that the KJVs cross-reference verse 17 with:
Daniel 9:24 (NKJV)
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

The following explains what Jesus fulfilled and is the covenant being confirmed, the first half, another 31/2 years of confirming to come.
Luke 24:44 (NKJV)
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

Those people who believe Jesus kept the Law so that they would not have to keep the Law would also believe the seventieth week is thrown down to the end of time and given to Satan; I believe this is called taking the scriptures literally.

 

[Radrook]

""That would necessitate that we continue to view the Jews as God's chosen people from whom God expects obedience to the Law Covenant even after Christianity was established, the Law was fulfilled in Jesus and had served its prophetic function and the Temple was . destroyed in fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.""

I thought I contested this very well. Jesus kept the Law as well as anyone interested in the kingdom of God would do. How could a law be fulfilled; a covenant could be fulfilled but God's covenant is everlasting and includes continuing eternal life.

Matthew 5:17 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Maybe you believe heaven and earth have passed away. It is interesting that the KJVs cross-reference verse 17 with:
Daniel 9:24 (NKJV)
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.

The following explains what Jesus fulfilled and is the covenant being confirmed, the first half, another 31/2 years of confirming to come.
Luke 24:44 (NKJV)
44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

Those people who believe Jesus kept the Law so that they would not have to keep the Law would also believe the seventieth week is thrown down to the end of time and given to Satan; I believe this is called taking the scriptures literally.

I don't consider good-hearted people damned based on theological differences of opinions or misunderstandings. Such misunderstandings, whatever they might be perceived to be now, will cease to exist in God's New order.

Habakkuk 2:14 ►
New International Version
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

Numbers 14:21
but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD.

Psalm 22:27
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

Isaiah 11:9
They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.

 

[sparow]

I don't consider good-hearted people damned based on theological differences of opinions or misunderstandings. Such misunderstandings, whatever they might be perceived to be now, will cease to exist in God's New order.

Theology is a problem before considering differences. Good heartedness is not a test or is not defined; those who use His name but wear their own garments and eat their own food are often good hearted. The test is allegiance, to the person and to the system over which He is king and the yard stick is the covenant.

I don't know who will be saved, but it wont be the complacent.

Matthew 19:25-30 (NKJV)
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, "See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?"
28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

 

[Radrook]

Theology is a problem before considering differences. Good heartedness is not a test or is not defined; those who use His name but wear their own garments and eat their own food are often good hearted. The test is allegiance, to the person and to the system over which He is king and the yard stick is the covenant.

I don't know who will be saved, but it wont be the complacent.

Matthew 19:25-30 (NKJV)
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?"
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, "See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?"
28 So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

When Jesus told his disciples to forgive those who were crucifying him because they were ignorant, what do you think that he meant about the ignorant?