The historicity of Adam

[AndrewEOC]

^^Good points both. It is easy to generalize based on the loud voices of a few.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But you have to give "seeing from the outside" its due, considering feats in medicine and engineering have greatly improved the lives of millions, allowing many the opportunity to become Christians and "know the creation from the inside." Chances are every one of us here have benefitted in some way from the discoveries of atheist and religious scientists alike.

no one here is anti science. just because I believe in a young earth does not mean that I just throw all science out the window. doctors and astronomers sought the council of Elder Porphyrios because of what he could see with his spiritual insight, Fr Paul Florensky, although off in his sophism, was a noted scientist, and the Ecumencial Patriarch is a noted environmentalist. and those are just a few who probably helped advance science.

 

[ArmyMatt]

and I at the parish where I was received, one of the ladies there worked in the whole global warming debate, and our choir director is in the food sciences. so yes, they are there. at my home parish one of the readers is an MD as well, so we have scientists

 

[AndrewEOC]

no one here is anti science.

Did you not read the post where I was accused of being brainwashed by evil Western scientists?

 

[truthseeker32]

We do not HAVE to believe that man is millions of years old (and I really don't), nor need we exclude physical evidence about things that may be older than man, though we OUGHT to believe, whatever humans may have existed at whatever time, that Christ descended from Adam and Eve, and that all of us probably did. That as far as WE are concerned, they WERE the first humans.

I just thought I would note that the evolutionary scientific community doesn't believe man is millions of years old either. They typically estimate that homo sapiens sapiens has been in its anatomical state for 200,000 years and its behavioral state for 50,000 years. I am guessing, though, that you may have included the supposed ancestors of homo sapiens sapiens when you said "man." Just thought I would clarify, just in case.

 

[jckstraw72]

Did you not read the post where I was accused of being brainwashed by evil Western scientists?

that's still not anti-science. sounds like he's against a particular brand of scientist/science, but to make the leap to someone being anti-science is unfounded. we all use science in our everyday lives all the time. we just don't go for every theory that comes our way.

 

[AndrewEOC]

I just thought I would note that the evolutionary scientific community doesn't believe man is millions of years old either. They typically estimate that homo sapiens sapiens has been in its anatomical state for 200,000 years and its behavioral state for 50,000 years. I am guessing, though, that you may have included the supposed ancestors of homo sapiens sapiens when you said "man." Just thought I would clarify, just in case.

Good point, thanks for addressing that. I assumed it was just a rhetorical device.

 

[Lukaris]

I just wanted to mention that my post was towards the general topic & not in reference to anyone elses posts.

 

[AndrewEOC]

sounds like he's against a particular brand of scientist/science

Yes, he clarified Western science or scientists, apparently ignoring the fact that the worldwide scientific community is roughly on the same page on this topic. But therein lies the problem. Established scientific theories have certain criteria for legitimacy (not like the word "theory" in the vernacular) and are not really things you can subjectively pick and choose while claiming to uphold the scientific method. Evolutionary theory is simply a means of describing the mechanisms for the observed occurrence of evolution, and sufficiently meets the criteria to be considered objectively valid despite ongoing refinements.

 

[jckstraw72]

Evolutionary theory is simply a means of describing the mechanisms for the observed occurrence of evolution, and sufficiently meets the criteria to be considered objectively valid despite ongoing refinements.

if the science stuck to this then it'd be all well and good, but we know it doesn't stop there. as you said -- the minor variations that have been observed INEVITABLY compound into macroevolution -- now you've left the realm of observation and have gone into philosophical assumptions.

 

[AndrewEOC]

if the science stuck to this then it'd be all well and good, but we know it doesn't stop there. as you said -- the minor variations that have been observed INEVITABLY compound into macroevolution -- now you've left the realm of observation and have gone into philosophical assumptions.

Not exactly. If you refer back to the post in question, I said that long-term changes in certain isolated populations inevitably means speciation (as defined by reproductive isolation). The very purpose of a scientific theory is to explain and predict. It's like saying- if today you were to travel to the moon, or another planet, you would inevitably experience different physical phenomena based on the theory of gravitation. Certain constants are assumed.

 

[jckstraw72]

the problem with assuming constants for the past is that Paradise is thus assumed away ... the Fathers tell us that the period before the Fall is totally closed to science and philosophy and open only to revelation. the assumption of uniformitarianism does away with Paradise and the Fall.

 

[AndrewEOC]

the problem with assuming constants for the past is that Paradise is thus assumed away ... the Fathers tell us that the period before the Fall is totally closed to science and philosophy and open only to revelation. the assumption of uniformitarianism does away with Paradise and the Fall.

Well, as I said, I don't see an actual contradiction here, and consider myself in good (Orthodox and Christian) company in thinking so. Which reminds me... Peter Bouteneff's Beginnings has been sitting on my bookshelf for a while now and I am so looking forward to reading it.

 

[jckstraw72]

forgive me, i dont understand how you don't see the contradiction - in the Patristic scenario there was a time of Paradise reigning over the earth, free of all corruption and morality -- in the evolutionary scenario corruption and death have always existed, regardless of the sin of man.

 

[buzuxi02]

Did you not read the post where I was accused of being brainwashed by evil Western scientists?

I would say brainwashed is a strong word. But a significant portion of the worldwas deceived when the western scientists and the UN along with some capitalists told us that their fictional data is telling us we caused erratic weather patterns a few years ago.

Ialso believe the amount of orthodox scientists are on par with other demographics. As I said I personally know a profound scientist who was even invited by the Goarch toview numerous mhyrrstreaming icons a few years ago.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Did you not read the post where I was accused of being brainwashed by evil Western scientists?

no I missed that, I have just been trying to keep our convo going. I don't think you are brainwashed by evil Western scientists, I just disagree.

for me it boils down to the Fall. if the Fall really was a supernatural change to the entire universe, than we cannot look into what the world was like before that using the laws of how the world is today to get our information. it was a world free of death, corruption, sickness, etc, with the cosmos in perfect submission to man. evolution is not compatable with that kind of origin.

 

[MKJ]

I am in Turkey now......

What are you dong in Turkey?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Rus escaped from a Turkish prison after smuggling hashish duct-taped to his undershirt arrested in the airport. Frightening ordeal. Rus' real name: Billy Hayes.

What are you dong in Turkey?

 

[MKJ]

Rus escaped from a Turkish prison after smuggling hashish duct-taped to his undershirt arrested in the airport. Frightening ordeal. Rus' real name: Billy Hayes.

Oh my.:o

 

[rusmeister]

What are you dong in Turkey?

El cheapo vacation tour package.
Totally on a shoestring budget. But if you just want sun and surf, you don't need to spend more money. The hotels provide all meals, local beer and wine in the tour package.
At the moment, my insomnia has me up and about.