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The historicity of Adam

jckstraw72

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The podcast was a BBC philosophical discussion with Lord (Melvyn) Bragg.
It was on the life and legacy of Pelagius. :p


What I did find interesting was the assertion that the Early Church held a more allegorical understanding of the creation account.
BBC Radio 4 - In Our Time, The Pelagian Controversy

people get into trouble when they assume that allegorical and literal are mutually exclusive -- many people fall into this trap.
 
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Dewi Sant

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i wonder what the person doing that podcast would have to say about St. Theophilus of Antioch, St. Basil the Great, St. Ambrose, etc

Is there anything between these three writers that I should be aware of?
I am not sure what you're suggesting. :confused:
 
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Knee V

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The podcast was a BBC philosophical discussion with Lord (Melvyn) Bragg.
It was on the life and legacy of Pelagius. :p

What I did find interesting was the assertion that the Early Church held a more allegorical understanding of the creation account.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b010dstl

I believe that there is a difference between saying that the events in the creation account are allegory and saying that Adam and Eve were not historical figures. Similarly, just because the sun was created after there was light doesn't mean that there was not really a sun.
 
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AndrewEOC

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but Fr. Seraphim is not anti-science in the least -- he had a very scientific mind and a great love of the sciences.

He cherry-picked like there was no tomorrow and attacked his opponents (ie the vast majority of the scientific community) as being guided by some sort of atheist agenda. Ignored the fact that "macroevolution" (the type he rejects) is simply "microevolution" (the type he accepts) compounded in the medium to long term. Not exactly a scientist.
 
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jckstraw72

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Is there anything between these three writers that I should be aware of?
I am not sure what you're suggesting. :confused:

they are all pre-Augustinian Fathers who read Genesis literally.
 
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jckstraw72

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He cherry-picked like there was no tomorrow and attacked his opponents (ie the vast majority of the scientific community) as being guided by some sort of atheist agenda. Ignored the fact that "macroevolution" (the type he rejects) is simply "microevolution" (the type he accepts) compounded in the medium to long term. Not exactly a scientist.


if you can demonstrate that he cherry-picked from the Fathers then please do so. and he is certainly not alone in seeing evolution as part of an anti-Christian movement. and we are told that macro is simply micro on a larger scale, but it is precisely that which has never been observed - it remains an assumption.
 
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AndrewEOC

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if you can demonstrate that he cherry-picked from the Fathers then please do so. and he is certainly not alone in seeing evolution as part of an anti-Christian movement. and we are told that macro is simply micro on a larger scale, but it is precisely that which has never been observed - it remains an assumption.

Enormous changes in isolated populations have been observed in very short periods of time (within decades). Taken to 1000s or even 100s of years, this, inevitably, means speciation or "macroevolution." This is by far the most logical sequence of events, how can you argue otherwise?
 
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jckstraw72

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Enormous changes in isolated populations have been observed in very short periods of time (within decades). Taken to 1000s or even 100s of years, this, inevitably, means speciation or "macroevolution." This is by far the most logical sequence of events, how can you argue otherwise?

how is it inevitable? the Scriptures and the Fathers teach that each reproduces after its own kind -- are you sure there is no limit to variation within created things that would prevent them from changing into a new "kind?" can something "evolve" beyond its own defining logoi? the only person i've ever even seen consider this question - Dr. Vincent Rossi - strongly concludes that they cannot.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Adam means earth or ground (Adamah) in Hebrew. It also can mean red (Adom) as in red ground. Eve is actually Chava...the root of this name is connected with the word "Chaya" (which means living), and the word "Chai" (which means life).
 
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buzuxi02

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Actually while most wouldnt consider Adam and Eve as the first homosapiens, most do believe thestory is based on historical people that have lived.

A popular theory is that Adam and Eve were a primitive king and queen who lived lavishly as one expects of royalty. Basically they fell from grace were chased out of their kingdom and deposed. This story reflects the human condition.
And yes the basic consensus is to read it literally as the entire incarnation hinges on it.
 
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cosmicom

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Adam means earth or ground (Adamah) in Hebrew. It also can mean red (Adom) as in red ground. Eve is actually Chava...the root of this name is connected with the word "Chaya" (which means living), and the word "Chai" (which means life).

If Adam had been named "Pepito" and Eve "Lola", they still would be our forefathers. Death came upon us because the ancestral sin of Adam and Eve, that implies actually the real existence of them. No way ancestral sin came upon us due to the sin of nobody, or the sin of monkeys or whatever.

Besides, according to Luke Christ descend from Adam. Is that statement alegory? No, it´s clear as water.
 
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AndrewEOC

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how is it inevitable? the Scriptures and the Fathers teach that each reproduces after its own kind -- are you sure there is no limit to variation within created things that would prevent them from changing into a new "kind?" can something "evolve" beyond its own defining logoi? the only person i've ever even seen consider this question - Dr. Vincent Rossi - strongly concludes that they cannot.

It's called reproductive isolation, which by the way has also been empirically observed.
 
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jckstraw72

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It's called reproductive isolation, which by the way has also been empirically observed.

no one denies that which has been observed, certainly including Fr. Seraphim. Speciation that arises from reproductive isolation really bears no similarity to the theory of common descent. you have to do some pretty wild extrapolations to get to that.

but again, are you sure that macro- is inevitable? how do you square that with the teachings of the Fathers that each creation reproduces only after its own kind, and the theology of the logoi?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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If Adam had been named "Pepito" and Eve "Lola", they still would be our forefathers. Death came upon us because the ancestral sin of Adam and Eve, that implies actually the real existence of them. No way ancestral sin came upon us due to the sin of nobody, or the sin of monkeys or whatever.

Besides, according to Luke Christ descend from Adam. Is that statement alegory? No, it´s clear as water.

All I said was what their names mean. You implied the rest...
 
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ArmyMatt

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no one denies that which has been observed, certainly including Fr. Seraphim. Speciation that arises from reproductive isolation really bears no similarity to the theory of common descent. you have to do some pretty wild extrapolations to get to that.

but again, are you sure that macro- is inevitable? how do you square that with the teachings of the Fathers that each creation reproduces only after its own kind, and the theology of the logoi?

or how in the Book of Wisdom it states that God did not create death. Fr Thomas Hopko even points out that if animals are killing each other for food, that is our fault because of our sins.
 
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rusmeister

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Christians (maybe especially Orthodox Christians) desperately need to recognize that science has been making enormous strides in uncovering the history of humanity and previously-unknown laws of the universe, before clinging to a literal interpretation of Genesis and taking a generally hostile stance towards modern science. We are not sinking back into pre-modern ignorance of the physical world any time soon, in fact incredible developments e.g. truly artificial life/genetic engineering can be expected in the near future, so I suggest we reconcile ourselves to this reality.

I think there is an assumption here that those who reject human evolution as improbable or impossible (acknowledging that SOME living organisms DO exhibit adaptive change over time) are "clinging" (a verb connoting fear) to certain understandings as literal, though I don't think, in general, that educated Orthodox Christians would insist that everything described in the Bible must be understood literally.

In fact, I would point out the danger of putting the natural sciences in an unwarranted psition of authority, or more accurately, of accepting widely held modern materialist interpretations of scientists (who can only come to conclusions through their science about the material world, anyway) as inerrant truth. The real danger is the idea that, because the natural sciences seem to be gaining knowledge over time, that the ability of scientists to think about said accumulation is correspondingly improving; indeed, that such improvement is inevitable. I think such an assumption to be seriously in error, approaching what I would call "science-worship". The problem that I see is that while the sciences may have made gains in technical knowledge, the philosophy governing thinking about such things has not only failed to improve, but has drastically degraded. In ither words, we are becoming idiot-savants, having more and more knowledge, and less and less of both wisdom and reason.

On genetic engineering, the very first book I would refer you to is GK Chesterton's "On Eugenics and Other Evils". One must recognize the enormous capacity for evil that is not only possible, but likely to be realized. The great evils approaching in this ability to do incredible things combined with an utter lack of wisdom guiding what ought to be, or not to be done, are horrifying, to those who can see this.

We agree that the natural sciences should be respected in their proper place, and that mindless fundamentalism is not Christian wisdom. But modern scientists do not have the essential keys to help us understand even this world, let alone the realities behind it. They see a silhouette of a man raising a knife over a sleeping victim, when, if the curtain be drawn aside, we would see a doctor at an operating table.
 
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AndrewEOC

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^You're still around, then? Was waiting for a response to my PM. No big deal if you forgot or got bored or whatever.

As for what you said... well, I'm not so naive as to confuse scientific advancement with moral progress. As Scripture says, with greater knowledge comes greater sorrow. Neither did I intend for "incredible" to carry some ethically positive connotation. I used it more as a synonym of "very significant" if anything.

But we need Orthodox who can actually communicate with scientists and meet them where they stand. Who can understand exactly how scientists or engineers are doing what they're doing, and how those actions or conclusions should be approached and understood from a Christian perspective. I am not convinced there is actually much genuine communication between those with technical knowledge and those with spiritual insight, and to bridge the gap we again desperately need people who recognize the legitimacy of both. It simply isn't enough for us to sit back and condemn scientists and the modern society they are shaping as hopelessly deluded by materialism (too often it really is about fear).

The Christian method of outreach as always been just that- reaching OUT, not anathematizing from the sidelines and then expecting people to come rushing into churches.

Why shouldn't the Orthodox be able to do this, when the Catholic Church has fielded many fine scientists in their ranks of clergy, who have greatly contributed to our technical understanding of genetics, the universe, even evolution from a Christian perspective?
 
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