The historicity of Adam

[rusmeister]

^You're still around, then? Was waiting for a response to my PM. No big deal if you forgot or got bored or whatever.

As for what you said... well, I'm not so naive as to confuse scientific advancement with moral progress. As Scripture says, with greater knowledge comes greater sorrow. Neither did I intend for "incredible" to carry some ethically positive connotation. I used it more as a synonym of "very significant" if anything.

But we need Orthodox who can actually communicate with scientists and meet them where they stand. Who can understand exactly how scientists or engineers are doing what they're doing, and how those actions or conclusions should be approached and understood from a Christian perspective. I am not convinced there is actually much genuine communication between those with technical knowledge and those with spiritual insight, and to bridge the gap we again desperately need people who recognize the legitimacy of both. It simply isn't enough for us to sit back and condemn scientists and the modern society they are shaping as hopelessly deluded by materialism (too often it really is about fear).

The Christian method of outreach as always been just that- reaching OUT, not anathematizing from the sidelines and then expecting people to come rushing into churches.

Why shouldn't the Orthodox be able to do this, when the Catholic Church has fielded many fine scientists in their ranks of clergy, who have greatly contributed to our technical understanding of genetics, the universe, even evolution from a Christian perspective?

The link for the book I mentioned (public domain, legal):
Eugenics and Other Evils
The first sentences of ch one will get your ttention.

As to PM's, my apologies. I am in Turkey now, and can only get occasional internet access (and I'm not here to it on the 'Net much, anyway). My apologies if I seem to have ignored you!

I quite agree on being able to grasp both technical learning and spiritual wisdom; I see it as part of being "wise as serpents". But I think the Orthodox Church is a little more right than the Catholic Church in where it places its emphasis, hierarchies of importance.

I think there are ignorant and uneducated believers, just as there are ignorant and uneducated unbelievers - especially the badly educated kind that think themselves educated, though I would not hold them to blame for that. So certainly there are believers that reject the value of the sciences, just as there are unbelievers who reject the value of genuine philosophy and theology. But we must not judge learning by ignorance, nor fail to distinguish between believers who are simply ignorant of the sciences andthose who reject the philosophy BEHIND the popular ideas of modern scientists.

As Chesterton put it, they think we are hostile to science, when we are actually only hostile to materialism. And as far as what to take literally, I see a danger in failure to discern, that we could (and some HAVE) come to a point where the Resurrection is no longer taken literally, where shoppers pick and choose what they shall understand for themselves.

But on these things, I think the best thing a little bit of healthy agnosticism, especially towards the natural sciences and scientists. Our faith should be placed in the right things.

My view (which I do not hold as dogma)

 

[buzuxi02]

^You're still around, then? Was waiting for a response to my PM. No big deal if you forgot or got bored or whatever.

"As for what you said... well, I'm not so naive as to confuse scientific advancement with moral progress. As Scripture says, with greater knowledge comes greater sorrow. Neither did I intend for "incredible" to carry some ethically positive connotation. I used it more as a synonym of "very significant" if anything.

Why shouldn't the Orthodox be able to do this, when the Catholic Church has fielded many fine scientists in their ranks of clergy, who have greatly contributed to our technical understanding of genetics, the universe, even evolution from a Christian perspective?[/




I think your mislead on this. Russian orthodoxy probably has the coziest relationship with scientists. Cosmonauts have even placed icons in space, something that would never happen any where else. I personally have a close friend who is one of the top scientist in his field. One of the greats in astrophysics, met when we were about 13 years old as altar boys. To this dy he still occasionally puts on the black robe and helps in his home parish in Hempstead NY. His high school was archbishop Iakovos high school in jamaica queens.

The problem is western scientists . Many Muslims are great mathematicians and engineers yet they have faith and find no conflict with Islam. In the west we have second rate voices like that little crippled man with the electric voice who is hostile to faith. This man who never built his own telescope or rocket and is the inspiration for darth vadar would have been euthanized by his own kind ifit werent for christianity.
The Vatican has their own panel of scientists who are believers and can give recommendations on the newest discoveries, but these voices are not the mainstream western scientists parroted by the media and the UN

 

[ArmyMatt]

^You're still around, then? Was waiting for a response to my PM. No big deal if you forgot or got bored or whatever.

As for what you said... well, I'm not so naive as to confuse scientific advancement with moral progress. As Scripture says, with greater knowledge comes greater sorrow. Neither did I intend for "incredible" to carry some ethically positive connotation. I used it more as a synonym of "very significant" if anything.

But we need Orthodox who can actually communicate with scientists and meet them where they stand. Who can understand exactly how scientists or engineers are doing what they're doing, and how those actions or conclusions should be approached and understood from a Christian perspective. I am not convinced there is actually much genuine communication between those with technical knowledge and those with spiritual insight, and to bridge the gap we again desperately need people who recognize the legitimacy of both. It simply isn't enough for us to sit back and condemn scientists and the modern society they are shaping as hopelessly deluded by materialism (too often it really is about fear).

The Christian method of outreach as always been just that- reaching OUT, not anathematizing from the sidelines and then expecting people to come rushing into churches.

Why shouldn't the Orthodox be able to do this, when the Catholic Church has fielded many fine scientists in their ranks of clergy, who have greatly contributed to our technical understanding of genetics, the universe, even evolution from a Christian perspective?

no one is suggesting this, and many clergy were scientists. Orthodox scientists do reach out. the problem is that when it comes to origins, if you say anything OTHER than the pervaisive idea of evolution, you are already written off. there is a monk I know, Fr Epiphanios, who was a scientist while in the world. he rejects evolution on scientiffic as well as spiritual grounds. most other scientists would probably just write him off because he believes in a young earth.

it is possible, to look at the evidence, and simply draw differing conclusions based on equally unprovable presuppositions.

 

[AndrewEOC]

Okay, so who are these great Orthodox scientists who have made significant contributions to advances in the field? Nikola Tesla is often paraded as the main Orthodox claim to fame- a man who stated he was "not a believer in the orthodox sense" and rejected belief in eternal souls as well as basic Christian eschatology. Cosmonauts with icons is nice but hardly unique. Buzz Aldrin took communion on the moon. The Chinese name their equipment after Buddhist deities and carry devotional objects with them to space as well.

I'm certainly not trying to argue that Orthodox scientists don't exist or that Orthodoxy universally suffers from ignorance of science. But again- the success of the Christian mission has historically been characterized by its ability to meet society where it stands and syncretize when appropriate. Today, society is (like it or not) being rapidly transformed by scientific advances and we can't afford to fall behind in comprehension of these advances. It doesn't help when the scientific community is portrayed as harboring anti-Christian monsters.

 

[jckstraw72]

St. Luke of Simferopol was quite an accomplished surgical doctor and I think he won some kind of awards or something, and he stood against evolution.

and really, there are no greater scientists than the Saints. yeah, they didn't get a PhD but they behold the face of the Creator and contemplate the logoi of creation - scientists only see from the outside, but Saints know the creation from the inside. here is a particularly good article on the topic: MYSTAGOGY: Patristic Views on the Nature and Status of Scientific Knowledge

 

[AndrewEOC]

St. Luke of Simferopol was quite an accomplished surgical doctor and I think he won some kind of awards or something, and he stood against evolution.

and really, there are no greater scientists than the Saints. yeah, they didn't get a PhD but they behold the face of the Creator and contemplate the logoi of creation - scientists only see from the outside, but Saints know the creation from the inside. here is a particularly good article on the topic:

But you have to give "seeing from the outside" its due, considering feats in medicine and engineering have greatly improved the lives of millions, allowing many the opportunity to become Christians and "know the creation from the inside." Chances are every one of us here have benefitted in some way from the discoveries of atheist and religious scientists alike.

 

[buzuxi02]

Okay, so who are these great Orthodox scientists who have made significant contributions to advances in the field? Nikola Tesla is often paraded as the main Orthodox claim to fame- a man who stated he was "not a believer in the orthodox sense" and rejected belief in eternal souls as well as basic Christian eschatology. Cosmonauts with icons is nice but hardly unique. Buzz Aldrin took communion on the moon. The Chinese name their equipment after Buddhist deities and carry devotional objects with them to space as well.

I'm certainly not trying to argue that Orthodox scientists don't exist or that Orthodoxy is universally characterized by ignorance of science. But again- perhaps the most important feature of the Christian mission has historically been its ability to meet society where it stands and syncretize when appropriate. Today, society is (like it or not) being rapidly transformed by scientific advances and we can't afford to fall behind in comprehension of these advances. It doesn't help when the scientific community is portrayed as harboring anti-Christian monsters.

Western science simply does not want that Nobody has a problem with science, the Vatican no longer persecutes like copernicus. Its the scientific community itself that portrays that image. Western science itself is promoting the hatred of faith by portraying themselves as a master race of victims. This is the same western scientific community that falsifies data to continue getting lucrative grants to enrich themselves. What is the face of western science but a small crippled man whose same scientific community would love to have him euthanized . It's amazing this fellow cant figure that out, instead he spends his time refining his formulas meaning he debunks his own theories in order to improve them and make them more accurate.

Andrew the reason you think what you do is because the western scientist told you so. I'mthe only one not afraid to criticise that old crippled man who looks like the evil emperor of a sci-fi movie. Yet how often does he get media attention for ridiculing people of faith. It is the scientistswho need to reach out to religion but they won't

 

[jckstraw72]

But you have to give "seeing from the outside" its due, considering feats in medicine and engineering have greatly improved the lives of millions, allowing many the opportunity to become Christians and "know the creation from the inside." Chances are every one of us here have benefitted in some way from the discoveries of atheist and religious scientists alike.

that is true. im not discrediting science. but when seeing from the outside and seeing from the inside contradict, then we have a choice to make.

 

[AndrewEOC]

Andrew the reason you think what you do is because the western scientist told you so.

Really? Thanks for telling me I have no capacity for original thought. Wonder I am Orthodox or on this forum at all with the Western scientist/evil emperor (?) force-channeling his corrupt beliefs into my mind!

It is the scientistswho need to reach out to religion but they won't

No, that is an entirely un-Christian sentiment and not what Christ preached or the apostles practiced about spreading the faith.

 

[buzuxi02]

The faith is here, if a specific scientist doesnt want to believe that the hand of God is existant in any of their experiments and observations then we cant do anything about that.

If western scientists want to portray themselves as intellectual victims and use propoaganda to promote it, then by all means, they can relocate to the middle east, I hear Iran needs a few good nuclear scientists, or they can feel at home in China, no religion there to stifle anything.

And if they do relocate things would be better as the real scientists all have faith and cant stand there atheist colleagues.

 

[AndrewEOC]

that is true. im not discrediting science. but when seeing from the outside and seeing from the inside contradict, then we have a choice to make.

But, in this case, it is not clear there really is a contradiction. Andrei Kuraev, for example, is a particularly prolific contemporary Russian theologian (there is a Russian forum in his name that comprises perhaps the largest Russian Orthodox online community) who insists that "Orthodoxy has neither a textual nor a doctrinal basis to reject evolution" and is well-known for his opposition to creationist literature that has been sweeping into Russia from American Protestant sources. Perhaps rusmeister could expand on this.

 

[jckstraw72]

But, in this case, it is not clear there really is a contradiction. Andrei Kuraev, for example, is a particularly prolific contemporary Russian theologian (there is a Russian forum in his name that comprises perhaps the largest Russian Orthodox online community) who insists that "Orthodoxy has neither a textual nor a doctrinal basis to reject evolutionism" and is well-known for his opposition to creationist literature that has been sweeping into Russia from American Protestant sources. Perhaps rusmeister could expand on this.

but the problem is that Dcn. Andrei is not in agreement with those Saints who are seeing from the inside. Russian Saints have been speaking against evolution from the very beginning - St. Theophan the Recluse, the Optina Elders, and St. John of Kronstadt are some early examples.

 

[AndrewEOC]

but the problem is that Dcn. Andrei is not in agreement with those Saints who are seeing from the inside. Russian Saints have been speaking against evolution from the very beginning - St. Theophan the Recluse, the Optina Elders, and St. John of Kronstadt are some early examples.

As an acclaimed professor at one of the foremost Orthodox theological institutes in the world, I'm pretty sure Kuraev is not so ignorant about the opinions of Russia's saints on a subject towards which he is so vocal.

 

[jckstraw72]

As an acclaimed professor at one of the foremost Orthodox theological institutes in the world, I'm pretty sure Kuraev is not so ignorant about the opinions of Russia's saints on a subject towards which he is so vocal.

maybe not, but in the writings from him that i've seen he has not addressed these Saints and their teachings on the subject.

 

[AndrewEOC]

maybe not, but in the writings from him that i've seen he has not addressed these Saints and their teachings on the subject.

Well, how many of his writings have you read? From the looks of it only a couple short articles have been translated into English.

 

[jckstraw72]

Well, how many of his writings have you read? From the looks of it only a couple short articles have been translated into English.

yeah, that's all i can personally go off of. but i would think that to write 2 or 3 articles arguing for the compatibility of Orthodoxy and evolution you would HAVE to address the Saints -- it's a glaring omission from his articles in my opinion.

 

[rusmeister]

I'd remind everyone that it is very easy to give offense, intentionally or unintentionally! I'd encourage everyone to weightheir words and throw potentially offensive ones off the scales.

Okay, so who are these great Orthodox scientists who have made significant contributions to advances in the field? Nikola Tesla is often paraded as the main Orthodox claim to fame- a man who stated he was "not a believer in the orthodox sense" and rejected belief in eternal souls as well as basic Christian eschatology. Cosmonauts with icons is nice but hardly unique. Buzz Aldrin took communion on the moon. The Chinese name their equipment after Buddhist deities and carry devotional objects with them to space as well.

I'm certainly not trying to argue that Orthodox scientists don't exist or that Orthodoxy universally suffers from ignorance of science. But again- the success of the Christian mission has historically been characterized by its ability to meet society where it stands and syncretize when appropriate. Today, society is (like it or not) being rapidly transformed by scientific advances and we can't afford to fall behind in comprehension of these advances. It doesn't help when the scientific community is portrayed as harboring anti-Christian monsters.

It seems you are saying that there ought to be more Orthodox scientists. No argument. There ought to be more Christians in every field.
One problem some of us observe is that a disproportionate voice is given to scientists who are also enemies of the faith (who are not monsters, only deceived people who need Christ as we do). So we hear a positive ton of the views of Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins, and no balance from scientists who disagree with them. On the whole, that is a function of the mass media and the choices and preferences of its owners.
But the problem primarily being addressed here is the extent to which we must take current scientific opinion as dogmatic truth.
The whole thing, Andrew, is that I, for one, feel that I comprehend these advances perfectly well, and it is our unphilosophical generation of scientists that does not comprehend the limitations of science. The Church does not pretend to teach science, and the Bible is not a scientific textbook. But what these people forget is that worldview determines our attitude towards and understandings of EVERYTHING, and if they have started with the wrong view, then they may have accurate data and evidence, but all of their conclusions and interpretations will be skewed by the prism of their worldview.

We understand the scientific advances. (Have you ever heard of John Breck, for example?) It is the given scientists (and those who may be called "science-worshipers") who do not understand either philosophy or theology and their relation to truth and how we should understand the sciences.

So we can afford to be agnostic to a degree. We do not HAVE to believe that man is millions of years old (and I really don't), nor need we exclude physical evidence about things that may be older than man, though we OUGHT to believe, whatever humans may have existed at whatever time, that Christ descended from Adam and Eve, and that all of us probably did. That as far as WE are concerned, they WERE the first humans.

And referring to modern authorities, Orthodox or not, does not change that.

 

[AndrewEOC]

I'd remind everyone that it is very easy to give offense, intentionally or unintentionally! I'd encourage everyone to weightheir words and throw potentially offensive ones off the scales.

It's all fair game as far as I'm concerned. The more offensive one party is, the greater the sympathy elicited by the opposition, to paraphrase Gorky.

It seems you are saying that there ought to be more Orthodox scientists. No argument. There ought to be more Christians in every field.
One problem some of us observe is that a disproportionate voice is given to scientists who are also enemies of the faith (who are not monsters, only deceived people who need Christ as we do). So we hear a positive ton of the views of Stephen Hawking and Richard Dawkins, and no balance from scientists who disagree with them. On the whole, that is a function of the mass media and the choices and preferences of its owners.
But the problem primarily being addressed here is the extent to which we must take current scientific opinion as dogmatic truth.
The whole thing, Andrew, is that I, for one, feel that I comprehend these advances perfectly well, and it is our unphilosophical generation of scientists that does not comprehend the limitations of science. The Church does not pretend to teach science, and the Bible is not a scientific textbook. But what these people forget is that worldview determines our attitude towards and understandings of EVERYTHING, and if they have started with the wrong view, then they may have accurate data and evidence, but all of their conclusions and interpretations will be skewed by the prism of their worldview.

We understand the scientific advances. (Have you ever heard of John Breck, for example?) It is the given scientists (and those who may be called "science-worshipers") who do not understand either philosophy or theology and their relation to truth and how we should understand the sciences.

In my experience, a large majority of people using today's technology do not fundamentally understand how it works. Basic physics, chemistry, and biology and the practical application of those fields are lost on many people, including often on myself. This goes for the young and old, college educated and uneducated, secular and religious, etc. And it should concern everyone including atheists, but perhaps Christians most of all, since as you say we should be agnostic to a degree concerning certain things. But how can we be agnostic without possessing the information with which to be so? Like spiritual knowledge, there is no limit to the acquisition of scientific knowledge and most of us in reality have little of either. And scientists actually often are surprisingly humble in acknowledging the limitations of our knowledge of the physical universe, admitting there remain many unknowns. Unphilosophical? Maybe... but I don't think we should give ourselves too much credit, or the scientific community too little.

And referring to modern authorities, Orthodox or not, does not change that.

It depends... there are many methods of exegesis, especially when it comes to details outside of official Church doctrine. I do trust modern Church authorities in relation to exegesis, my priest in particular.

 

[MKJ]

^You're still around, then? Was waiting for a response to my PM. No big deal if you forgot or got bored or whatever.

As for what you said... well, I'm not so naive as to confuse scientific advancement with moral progress. As Scripture says, with greater knowledge comes greater sorrow. Neither did I intend for "incredible" to carry some ethically positive connotation. I used it more as a synonym of "very significant" if anything.

But we need Orthodox who can actually communicate with scientists and meet them where they stand. Who can understand exactly how scientists or engineers are doing what they're doing, and how those actions or conclusions should be approached and understood from a Christian perspective. I am not convinced there is actually much genuine communication between those with technical knowledge and those with spiritual insight, and to bridge the gap we again desperately need people who recognize the legitimacy of both. It simply isn't enough for us to sit back and condemn scientists and the modern society they are shaping as hopelessly deluded by materialism (too often it really is about fear).

The Christian method of outreach as always been just that- reaching OUT, not anathematizing from the sidelines and then expecting people to come rushing into churches.

Why shouldn't the Orthodox be able to do this, when the Catholic Church has fielded many fine scientists in their ranks of clergy, who have greatly contributed to our technical understanding of genetics, the universe, even evolution from a Christian perspective?

This is just a thought, but I wonder if this is in part due to historical circumstances.

The countries in which Orthodoxy is most common are not necessarily the ones where numbers of Christian scientists were likely to emerge? Some were poorer nations with fewer educational and research opportunities, while Russia of course the state which funded science and education was anti-religion.

Do you count mathematicians as scientists, BTW? They tend to be a rather religious bunch.

In any case, something I would say more generally is that although there are a few loud voices in the New Atheist movement who declare themselves the real devotees of science, they are not really especially representative of how scientific thought is understood overall - in many ways they are old-fashioned. There are increasingly academics with strong theological, philosophical, and scientific backgrounds, working in one of those disciplines, interested in looking at the questions surrounding the intersection of those subjects.

I imagine given more time, there will be example Orthodox Christians who take up the same interests.

 

[Lukaris]

I do not claim to know how to fully explain faith & science but I tend to believe the universe is billions of years old & that God revealed His being to Moses & conveyed the first part of His plan of salvation in terms humans throughout most of history could comprehend. While I am thankful for many technological blessings, I will still die in a fallen scientific universe, so I put my faith in eternal life in the Lord Jesus Christ who has overcome the death of a fallen scientific universe to give us eternal life.