The Great Evil of Abortion

[SPF]

Most abortions occur before the zef is anything more than some cells. This kind of post is simply nonsense.

Human development takes roughly 25 years, beginning at fertilization. Yet at no point during our development are we not a human being created in the imagine of God, possessing inherent moral worth and value.

So for you to discriminate against a human claiming they lack moral value because they aren’t old enough to somehow earn it is actually bigoted.

 

[kiwimac]

Human development takes roughly 25 years, beginning at fertilization. Yet at no point during our development are we not a human being created in the imagine of God, possessing inherent moral worth and value.

So for you to discriminate against a human claiming they lack moral value because they aren’t old enough to somehow earn it is actually bigoted.

Rot and nonsense.

 

[SPF]

Rot and nonsense.

As of now those are just empty and unsupported words. If you actually have something of substance that can continue a conversation forward then by all means feel free to contribute.

But if that’s the extent to which you can respond one can only assume your position isn’t actually thought out or defensible.

 

[Up Quark]

A zef is simply not as important as the woman carrying it.

I'm assuming that a "zef" is a baby here, in which case, you cannot say that it is less important than the mother. Read my original post again and see why this line of thinking is immoral, and how it has led to evil in the past.

 

[kiwimac]

I'm assuming that a "zef" is a baby here, in which case, you cannot say that it is less important than the mother. Read my original post again and see why this line of thinking is immoral, and how it has led to evil in the past.

zef is an acronym for a foetus at various stages of it's development and it simply is not as important as the human carrying it and on whom it is dependent.

 

[Up Quark]

zef is an acronym for a foetus at various stages of it's development and it simply is not as important as the human carrying it and on whom it is dependent.

Explain.

 

[SPF]

zef is an acronym for a foetus at various stages of it's development and it simply is not as important as the human carrying it and on whom it is dependent.

Human development takes 25 years with only a small portion taking place in the womb. Why is it that moral worth and value is something a human has to grow into?

Are not all humans created in the image of God, possessing moral worth and value?

 

[kiwimac]

Human development takes 25 years with only a small portion taking place in the womb. Why is it that moral worth and value is something a human has to grow into?

Are not all humans created in the image of God, possessing moral worth and value?

A foetus is a potential human, it is simply not as important as the full human carrying it.

 

[kiwimac]

Explain.

Which bit?

 

[SPF]

A foetus is a potential human, it is simply not as important as the full human carrying it.

I’m not sure on what basis you are asserting that a fetus is only a potential human being and not an actual human being. Certainly that position does not reflect our current scientific understanding. Can you explain why a fetus is not a human being and when precisely it becomes a human being?

Can you objectively explain where the line is between a potential human being and an actual human being? Because as far as I understand biology, you’re quite wrong.

A United States Senate Judiciary Subcommittee invited experts to testify on the question of when life begins. All of the quotes from the following experts come directly from the official government record of their testimony.1

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, stated:

“I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at the time of conception…. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life….

I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty…is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”

Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. Dr. LeJeune testified to the Judiciary Subcommittee, “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School: “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception…. Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School: “The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter—the beginning is conception.

Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, “The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception.”3



Dr. Landrum Shettles was for twenty-seven years attending obstetrician-gynecologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York. Shettles was a pioneer in sperm biology, fertility, and sterility. He is internationally famous for being the discoverer of male- and female-producing sperm. His intrauterine photographs of preborn children appear in over fifty medical textbooks. Dr. Shettles states, I oppose abortion. I do so, first, because I accept what is biologically manifest—that human life commences at the time of conception—and, second, because I believe it is wrong to take innocent human life under any circumstances. My position is scientific, pragmatic, and humanitarian. 6

The First International Symposium on Abortion came to the following conclusion:

The changes occurring between implantation, a six-week embryo, a six-month fetus, a one-week-old child, or a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation. The majority of our group could find no point in time between the union of sperm and egg, or at least the blastocyst stage, and the birth of the infant at which point we could say that this was not a human life.7

The Official Senate report on Senate Bill 158, the “Human Life Bill,” summarized the issue this way:

Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that conception marks the beginning of the life of a human being—a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.8

Footnotes:

1 Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981.

2Landrum Shettles and David Rorvik, Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence of Life Before Birth (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1983), 113.

3 Ashley Montague, Life Before Birth (New York: Signet Books, 1977), vi.

4Bernard N. Nathanson, “Deeper into Abortion,” New England Journal of Medicine 291 (1974): 1189Ð90.

5Bernard Nathanson, Aborting America (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1979).

6Shettles and Rorvik, Rites of Life, 103.

7John C. Willke, Abortion Questions and Answers (Cincinnati, OH: Hayes Publishing, 1988), 42.

8Report, Subcommittee on Separation of Powers to Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st Session 1981, 7.

 

[Dan1988]

A foetus is a potential human, it is simply not as important as the full human carrying it.

Scientists recently showed an embryo being fertilized, they managed to film the point of conception.

It showed an actual spark of light as the sperm and embryo came together, to form a new person. So I believe as many others do, that a fertilized embryo is an actual person.

So we believe that a fetus is not a potential person but it's an actual person with exactly the same value as a grown adult.

I remember reading a scripture where it spoke about God passing judgment on women who killed their babies as wearing blood stained gowns. God judges women who killed their babies as murderers, they will be cast into hell fire to be tormented day and night forever

 

[Jon Osterman]

I believe that anyone involved in abortion or supports it should have their church membership cancelled and be put out of fellowship until they repent and adopt a stance which is consistent with the Ten Commandments.

It's interesting that you should think that. In my view, anyone who would prohibit abortion in any circumstance should be put out of their church until they repent and adopt a stance which is consistent with the teachings of Christ.

 

[SPF]

It's interesting that you should think that. In my view, anyone who would prohibit abortion in any circumstance should be put out of their church until they repent and adopt a stance which is consistent with the teachings of Christ.

And what exactly is a stance that is consistent with the teachings of Christ?

 

[kiwimac]

Scientists recently showed an embryo being fertilized, they managed to film the point of conception.

It showed an actual spark of light as the sperm and embryo came together, to form a new person. So I believe as many others do, that a fertilized embryo is an actual person.

So we believe that a fetus is not a potential person but it's an actual person with exactly the same value as a grown adult.

I remember reading a scripture where it spoke about God passing judgment on women who killed their babies as wearing blood stained gowns. God judges women who killed their babies as murderers, they will be cast into hell fire to be tormented day and night forever

I consider a foetus a child at first breath. As for the rest you'll need to provide the scripture you say you remember. Further as abortion is never mentioned in scripture I think you are projecting your feelings about it onto God.

 

[SPF]

I consider a foetus a child at first breath. As for the rest you'll need to provide the scripture you say you remember. Further as abortion is never mentioned in scripture I think you are projecting your feelings about it onto God.

So you think a partial birth abortion is morally acceptable?

 

[Dan1988]

I consider a foetus a child at first breath. As for the rest you'll need to provide the scripture you say you remember. Further as abortion is never mentioned in scripture I think you are projecting your feelings about it onto God.

.

 

[Dan1988]

I consider a foetus a child at first breath. As for the rest you'll need to provide the scripture you say you remember. Further as abortion is never mentioned in scripture I think you are projecting your feelings about it onto God.

What you consider to be irrelevant, has no baring on the truth. The truth remains that God hates women who commit the evil act of sacrificing their babies to their gods.

Abortion is actually sacrificing your baby to your god, because that baby will interfere with your ability to live a life of sin.

God hates those child sacrificing women so much that He casts them into hell where they will be tormented in hell fire for ever and ever.

The Bible has a lot to say about child sacrifice (abortion), it was practiced by many evil women in every generation. Today they do it in clinics, but God hates them just as much as He hated thsoe who used different methods to commit the sane evil.

That bible verse is Jeremiah 2:34 it speaks of those women who's skirts and stained with innocent blood. You will never succeed in trying to twist the truth of scripture to excuse the heinous sin of child sacrifice.

 

[SPF]

I consider a foetus a child at first breath. As for the rest you'll need to provide the scripture you say you remember. Further as abortion is never mentioned in scripture I think you are projecting your feelings about it onto God.

This position is clearly not based in anything scientific or medical. We know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence and begins its 25 years of development at fertilization. So this notion that a human being doesn’t exist until it is outside the womb and breathing air needs some sort of explanation.

And I don’t know what it can be based on since it’s not going to be science or Scripture.

In Luke chapter 1, John the Baptist, while still in his mother’s womb leaps for joy at the sound of Mary’s voice, who was carrying Jesus. So clearly even though John was still inside his mothers womb he was a human being as he was able to recognize and leap for joy. More than that it says he was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb.

 

[kiwimac]

What you consider to be irrelevant, has no baring on the truth. The truth remains that God hates women who commit the evil act of sacrificing their babies to their gods.

Abortion is actually sacrificing your baby to your god, because that baby will interfere with your ability to live a life of sin.

God hates those child sacrificing women so much that He casts them into hell where they will be tormented in hell fire for ever and ever.

The Bible has a lot to say about child sacrifice (abortion), it was practiced by many evil women in every generation. Today they do it in clinics, but God hates them just as much as He hated thsoe who used different methods to commit the sane evil.

That bible verse is Jeremiah 2:34 it speaks of those women who's skirts and stained with innocent blood. You will never succeed in trying to twist the truth of scripture to excuse the heinous sin of child sacrifice.

No one is sacrificing foetuses to gods, if you think they are the burden of proof is upon you to prove it. As for Jeremiah 2:34, perhaps you should read it more closely?

Jeremiah 2:34 "Also on your skirts is found The lifeblood of the innocent poor; You did not find them breaking in. But in spite of all these things..."

The whole passage is a diatribe against the sins of Israel and here God is speaking of the ways in which innocent people were being stripped of their possessions, NOT abortion.

 

[kiwimac]

This position is clearly not based in anything scientific or medical. We know scientifically that a new human being comes into existence and begins its 25 years of development at fertilization. So this notion that a human being doesn’t exist until it is outside the womb and breathing air needs some sort of explanation.

And I don’t know what it can be based on since it’s not going to be science or Scripture.

In Luke chapter 1, John the Baptist, while still in his mother’s womb leaps for joy at the sound of Mary’s voice, who was carrying Jesus. So clearly even though John was still inside his mothers womb he was a human being as he was able to recognize and leap for joy. More than that it says he was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb.

The Bible is quite clear that life begins at first breath. However no one is arguing that a zef is not alive simply that it's aliveness does not trump the pregnant womans rights.