This was previously answered here [please see the latter half of the post, thank you!]:...Also, you haven't answered my other question:
Where does it say in the Scriptures that Moses was resurrected unto eternal life (by Michael) before Christ?
This was previously answered here [please see the latter half of the post, thank you!]:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485547
3 Angels Messages said:http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476518
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476555
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476577
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476603
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60478069
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60478184
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60478241
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60483755
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-3/#post60483954
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-3/#post60484819
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485547
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485562
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-5/#post60486620
apostle and high priestIs Christ Jesus also called "the Apostle" [Hebrews 3:1]
Since I understand the messenger who prepares the way to be John the Baptist. I think the text is referring to the same messenger since it is the same verse."messenger of the covenant" [Malachi 3:1]
This is probably refering to Christ. Some bibles read as "or Savior"."the angel of His presence" [Isaiah 63:9]
"sent of the Father" [John 5:23]
I'm not finding this in Psalms 68:8?"the presence of God" [Psalms 68:8]
"the Angel of the Lord" [Exodus 3:2]
This seems to just be referring to an angel of the Lord..."his angel" [Daniel 3:28]
Sure, Moses was raised in promise of the fulfillment of Christ's own resurrection to come ["he was raised to immortal life, holding his title in the name of the Redeemer"], and thus even appears on the Mount of Transfiguration raised, being sent of the Father, and so speaking with Christ Jesus who was about to go to Jerusalem to die and be raised. Moses could not have been raised beforehand otherwise. Therefore, all who are raised, are only raised because Christ Jesus was crucified, died and was raised [He being the firstfruits, and firstborn [iow, the pre-eminent]], etc.Could you please explain to me how Moses was resurrected unto immortality before Christ?...
Could you please explain to me how Moses was resurrected unto immortality before Christ? Christ is called the FIRST-FRUITS for a specific reason: He was the first to be raised to live forever!
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24
Do you understand why Christ is called the first born of the dead (Rev 1)? It's because Christ was the FIRST to be begotten by God unto eternal life, when He was resurrected from the dead.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Colossians 1:18
_ _ _
And we declare to you glad tidingsthat promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You. Acts 13:32-33
Christ is indeed the FIRST-FRUITS, meaning He was the FIRST to be resurrected to immortality. So, I really do not see how Moses could have been raised unto eternal life before Christ.
Sure, Moses was raised in promise of the fulfillment of Christ's own resurrection to come ["he was raised to immortal life, holding his title in the name of the Redeemer"], and thus even appears on the Mount of Transfiguration raised, being sent of the Father, and so speaking with Christ Jesus who was about to go to Jerusalem to die and be raised. Moses could not have been raised beforehand otherwise. Therefore, all who are raised, are only raised because Christ Jesus was crucified, died and was raised [He being the firstfruits, and firstborn [iow, the pre-eminent]], etc.
This post I made may help you:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7557635/#post57423829
And also read my 2 posts starting here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7557635-2/#post57473226
It is a post proving that Enoch, Elijah, and Moses went to heaven in bodily form, including a number of Old Testament saints at Christ's resurrection.
The critics like to argue that no one went to heaven in bodily form before Jesus because He was the "firstfruits".
They are getting locked into a chronological "mindset", rather than the spiritual implications. Christ was slain from the foundation of the world, and while Christ's death and resurrection was yet "future", it was still before the foundation of the world legally speaking. Often times the scriptures speak of an event that is future as though it were past. Example: Isaiah 44:22 says that God had "blotted out" Israel's transgression and sins as a thick cloud, and that God had "redeemed them". Yet the physical transaction of Christ's death would not occur until another 700 years later. Another example is Psalms 68:18, where the patriarch David declared that the Lord "ascended (past) on high, that thou hast led captivity captive". David spoke about a future event as though it were past.
This same principle is to be applied for Christ's resurrection and the first-fruits. Physically, His death, resurrection and ascension occurred after some men were bodily translated or resurrected--such as Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and numerous OT saints at Christ's ascension. But spiritually, Christ had done all this before--which truly reveals what "first" really means. First as in matter of importance, not chronological order.
All those who were resurrected in Christ were a part of the first fruits--and those who are resurrected in the last day will be the completion of those first fruits.
There are times when the scriptures use "first" to mean "preeminent".What? First fruits of the resurrection mean exactly that! Christ was the FIRST to be raised from the dead by God unto eternal life, not Moses. Moses is DEAD AND BURIED.
Please do provide the specific Scriptural passages where it states that Moses was has already been resurrected unto immortality?
PS. do NOT gimmie links.
3 Angels Messages said:http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476518
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476555
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476577
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476603
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60478069
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60478184
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60478241
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60483755
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-3/#post60483954
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-3/#post60484819
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485547
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485562
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-5/#post60486620
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-7/#post60487331
No.
Those who were raised from the dead during Christ's time, all died again. Christ alone is the FIRST-FRUITS, and everyone who belong to Him will be raised unto immortality when Christ comes back.
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24
There are times when the scriptures use "first" to mean "preeminent".
Proof that Moses resurrected in bodily form:
"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Jude 1:9
Are we to subscribe to the ludicrous notion that Michael and Satan were disputing over a corpse? A corpse that decays into dust? Obviously, the issue here is a bodily resurrection. People who are dead are already Satan's captives. Satan did not agree that Moses should be resurrected, but Christ won the debate and showed Satan that Moses was worthy of being resurrected and taken to heaven.
This is the obvious context of the passage.
"And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him." (Matthew 17:3)
We already know that Elijah was "translated" without seeing death, just like Enoch. Are we to assume that Elijah appeared to Christ in bodily form, yet Moses appeared without a body?
I tell you, the perfidious belief in the Immortality of the Souls sure messes a lot of people's theology.
Rule of thumb:
Nobody has ever, nor will ever, go to heaven without a body.
3 Angels Messages said:http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476518
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476555
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476577
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476603
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60478069
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60478184
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60478241
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60483755
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-3/#post60483954
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-3/#post60484819
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485547
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485562
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-5/#post60486620
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-7/#post60487331
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-8/#post60487923
Psalms 68:18 and Ephesians 4:8.
Those who resurrected at Christ's death appeared unto many, but they were never seen again or heard from again or alluded to again after Christ ascended to heaven. You can be sure you would have heard of them working with the Apostles, and they would have been everywhere. They appeared for a time while Jesus was on this earth, and went to heaven at Christ's ascension. You won't find one account of their continued earthly existence after Christ's ascension.
Those who are dead and are in the grave, according to a careful study of scriptures, are called "captives". Satan is the king of death. He is the author of death.
A special group of Old Testament saints were resurrected and were set free from their graves, and ascended on High. He "led" them to heaven. They followed.
The triumphal entry of Christ brought numerous Old Testament saints with Him, in glorified bodily form.
This is yet another reason why tends of thousands of saints will be returning with Christ at the Second Advent.
As I have already shown, Christ being the "first fruits" has nothing to do with "chronological order".
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood. Revelation 1:5
.
.
.
And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.’ Acts 13:32-33
.
.
.
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regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:3-4
First means First in this case...Christ is indeed the First-fruits of the harvest. That is all.
The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon [iow - Jesus vs Satan]:
The Great Controversy [Book; PDF]
Who is MICHAEL ARCHANGEL according to the Word of GOD?
Why do I, and others, including respected, even well-known protestant Bible commentators believe that the scriptures clearly reveal HIM to be none other than CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF before HIS coming to this earth in which he then clothed His divinity with humanity?
Does this mean that CHRIST JESUS is somehow not GOD THE SON [the ETERNAL SELF-EXISTANT ONE, HE in whom is LIFE, unborrowed, underived, uncreated]?
No, in no way.
Please understand, that this study in no way degrades the Deity, Divinity [GODHEAD] of CHRIST JESUS, but rather it reveals that HE has always been the True and Ever-Living GOD who has ever taken a personal interest in us and battled for Truth and Life.
Please continue with me as we look into the Scriptures upon this subject. Also please know that this subject is meatier than a great deal of subjects and takes some time to go through, and some have a more difficult time with it than others, for there are a great many misconceptions out there on it, but we shall look at what even the great protestant scholars believed and wrote.
Why is it important to know?
This subject touches upon the Great Controversy between CHRIST JESUS and Satan that has been ongoing even until now, and soon to come to an end...
Let us see this Great Controversy:
Notice this unbreakable [John 10:35] structure of identification:
The Great Controversy, The Cosmic Conflict:
[War in Heaven]
[JESUS]"Michael" [Revelation 12:7;p]
[Satan]"Dragon" [Revelation 12:7;p]
[continued in the Garden of Eden]
[JESUS]"blood of the lamb" [Revelation 12:11;p] being that "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" [Revelation 13:8;p; see Genesis 3:21, 4:4, etc]
[Satan]"that old serpent" [Revelation 12:9;p, 12:14-15, 20:2; see Genesis 3:1,2,4,13,14]
[continued in the Earth]
[JESUS]"brought forth the man [child]" [Revelation 12:13;p]
[Satan]"cast out into the earth" [Revelation 12:9;p], "the devil is come down" [Revelation 12:12;p]
[continued in the Wilderness Temptations and Ministry]
[JESUS]"his Christ" [Revelation 12:10;p]
[Satan]"called the Devil" [Revelation 12:9;p] and "Satan" [Revelation 12:9;p] and "Being forty days tempted of the devil" [Luke 4:2, etc]
[continued at The Cross]
[JESUS]"the power of his Christ" [Revelation 12:10;p]
[Satan]"the accuser of our brethren is cast down" [Revelation 12:10;p]
[continued from then even until to this day...]
[JESUS/Followers]"remnant of her seed" [Revelation 12:17;p; see also "the seed" Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16 and also Acts 9:4-5, 22:7-8, 26:14-15]
[Satan/Followers]"the dragon was wroth" [Revelation 12:17;p], "face of the serpent" [Revelation 12:14;p]; "the serpent" [Revelation 12:15;p]
JESUS/MICHAEL: "Who is like unto God?" [Exodus 15:11; 1 Kings 8:23; Psalms 71:19; see also Deuteronomy 33:26; 2 Chronicles 6:14; Job 36:22; Psalms 35:10, 86:8, 89:8, 113:5; Jeremiah 10:6-7; Micah 7:18]
Satan behind the power: "Who [is] like unto the beast?" [Revelation 13:4;p]
JESUS/MICHAEL: "...behold, the world is gone after him." [John 12:19;p]
Satan behind the Beast: "...all the world wondered after the beast." [Revelation 13:3;p]
So, who is MICHAEL according to the text?
It is none other than JESUS, GOD the SON, Uncreated Creator of Heaven and Earth and the Sea and all that in them is.
Revelation 12 seals the matter, permanently, but let us also consider many other texts so that there is no doubt whatsoever.
There are two "princes" [rulers]
[1.] The Good [JESUS/MICHAEL, etc], the True and Everlasting "Prince" [GOD]
[2.] The Wicked [Satan/Dragon/Serpent/Devil, etc], the usurping "prince" [creature]
let us look and see The Great Controversy still further:
[JESUS/MICHAEL]
"...the Prince of the Host..." [Daniel 8:11;p];
"...the Prince of Princes..." [Daniel 8:25;p];
"...Messiah the Prince..." [Daniel 9:25;p];
"...Michael, one of the Chief Princes..." [Daniel 10:13;p];
"...Michael your Prince..." [Daniel 10:21;p];
"...the prince of the covenant..." [Daniel 11:22;p];
"...Michael...the Great Prince..." [Daniel 12:1;p];
"...the Prince of Peace..." [Isaiah 9:6;p];
"...the Prince of Life..." [Acts 3:15;p];
"...a Prince and a Saviour..." [Acts 5:31;p];
"...Jesus Christ...Prince of the Kings of the Earth..." [Revelation 1:5;p].
MICHAEL is not "merely a Prince of GOD's People", but is called in many places "Prince" [usually the word is "Sar" and means "Ruler, Prince, Chief", etc]:
...so, when considering the word in this light, "prince" means "ruler" or even "chief", then the language is more clear.
...and so CHRIST is also called all of those other Titles and names as well such as KING OF KINGS [Revelation 19:16] and this is not merely saying King of Kings of the Earth, but rather is saying HE is King over all Kings [compare with 1 Timothy 6:15, "Only Potentate"], KING OF THE JEWS [John 19:19], KING OF ISRAEL [John 1:49], the KING THAT COMETH [Luke 19:38] and LORD of LORD's [Revelation 17:14], the LORD FROM HEAVEN [1 Corinthians 15:47], the LORD OF ALL [Acts 10:36], the LORD OF PEACE [2 Thessalonians 3:16] etc.
[Satan/Dragon/Serpent/Devil]
"...devils through the prince of the devils." [Matthew 9:34;p];
"...cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils." [Matthew 12:24;p];
"...Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devil." [Mark 3:22;p];
"...the prince of this world..." [John 12:31;p];
"...the prince of this world..." [John 14:30;p];
"...the prince of this world is judged." [John 16:11;p];
"...the prince of the power of the air..." [Ephesians 2:2;p];
"...against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]..." [Ephesians 6:12;p];
"...thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers..." [Colossians 1:16;p];
"...principalities and powers..." [Colossians 2:15;p].
...even Satan [the accusing usrper] is designated "god of this world" [2 Corinthians 4:4], "king" [Revelation 9:11], "lord" [Baal] [Judges 2:13], a "father" of the wicked ones [John 8:44], his "children of disobedience" [Ephesians 2:2, 5:6; Colossians 3:6]...
Let us look deeper to be sure, but before we do, let us see if we are standing alone in this, or if this is also witnessed by others from the scriptures themselves...
To follow will be quotations from many others who also held to this very teaching of scripture [Jesus Christ is Michael Archangel, Uncreated Creator, Eternal, GOD [the SON]].
However, it must be said at the very beginning, none of these quotations were known of, until far after the HOLY SPIRIT had led in Bible study and prayer over this subject.
Also, for the remainder of the study, the scriptures shall be the only source book, as they should be, and I would ask all to hear and consider the matter and study yourself, but let these be given so that all may know, that Truth can be known.
"He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him." [Proverbs 18:13]
Forgive me, but are you saying that the "captives" being spoken here are the LORD's children, and not the spoils of the war (satan, sin, death etc defeated at the cross) that were led away as the fruit of the victory?
And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Colossians 2:15
As I understand it, that passage signifies that Jesus Christ had achieved a complete victory; he had led all his foes captive. In ancient times, conquered kings and generals were usually tied behind the chariot of the conqueror - bound to it, bound together, and walked after it, to grace the triumph of the victor. Christ also gave the gifts of the Holy-Spirit to the Church.
You have ascended on high,
You have led captivity captive;
You have received gifts among men,
Even from the rebellious,
That the Lord God might dwell there.
Blessed be the Lord,
Who daily loads us with benefits,
The God of our salvation! Selah Psalm 68:18-19
Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam. Judges 5:12
No.
The dead in Christ are never referred to as "captives", it is only those who are under the hold of sin, that are called "captives". Christ came to earth for that very reason; to set us free from the chains of captivity! So, how can you call those who have been freed, "captives" again?
The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised. Luke 4:18
Those saints that were resurrected during Christ's time, all died again. Only Christ has been resurrected unto eternal life, He alone is the first-fruits, and everyone else who belong to Him will be raised to immortality at the second coming of Christ.
[/quote]Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lords word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Christ will bring with Him, those who are DEAD in Him.
I already refuted this. See: http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60487508
None of these verses mean that Christ must have physically resurrected. The prophet Elijah resurrected a boy from the dead, so this totally explodes your premise.
The issue here is: First as in matter of importance.
Christ was slain from the "foundation of the world" (before any Lamb was sacrificed)
Christ ascended up on high. Past tense.
Christ "blotted out the sins of the world" -- before the physical transaction took place on the cross.
Thus, this is proof that the "first fruits" does not mean Jesus was the first to resurrect bodily from the dead.
While the physical transaction took place on the cross, it was registered as already having been done.
These verses here do not prove your point.
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