The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon
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OpenDoor said:
3 Angels Messages said:
OpenDoor said:
3 Angels Messages said:
[1.] Since Jesus is the "Apostle", where from is He this "Apostle"? From "Heaven", the "sent" of the Father. And one who is "sent", as Jesus was, is a "messenger", and thus fits the definition of "angel", which simply means "messenger".OpenDoor said:apostle and high priest
Since I understand the messenger who prepares the way to be John the Baptist. I think the text is referring to the same messenger since it is the same verse.
This is probably refering to Christ. Some bibles read as "or Savior".
I'm not finding this in Psalms 68:8?
There is actually a lot of debate regarding this verse, but I would agree that God appeared to Moses in the burning bush.
This seems to just be referring to an angel of the Lord...
[2.] It is impossible for John the Baptist [forerunner] to be both messengers of Malachi 3:1, for the first was to testify of the other:
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. John 1:7
He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. John 1:8
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. John 1:15
And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all [men] come to him. John 3:26
Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. John 3:28
There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. John 5:32
Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth. John 5:33
But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36
...and so let us consider that which is stated in Malachi Chapter 3 of JESUS, as the “Messenger of the Covenant”, which is a direct reference to the passages in Daniel:
as "...MESSIAH the Prince..." and "...MESSIAH..." in Daniel 9:25-26 [see Isaiah 61:1; John 1:41, 4:25; Luke 4:18; Acts 4:27, 10:38, etc]
as "...he..." who "...shall confirm the covenant ...with many..." in Daniel 9:27 [see Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 2:3, 12:24, etc]
as "the Prince of the Covenant" in Daniel 11:22
as "...MICHAEL...", "...your Prince...", "...chief prince...", "...Great Prince which standeth for thy people..." in Daniel 10:13,21, 12:1
Behold, I will send my messenger [John the Baptist, the forerunner, voice of one crying in the wilderness], and he shall prepare the way before me [Christ Jesus]: and the Lord [Christ Jesus], whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his [Christ Jesus] temple, even the messenger of the covenant [Christ Jesus], whom ye delight in: behold, he [Christ Jesus] shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 3:1)
[3.] See also: For he said, Surely they [are] my people, children [that] will not lie: so he was their Saviour. Isaiah 63:8
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9
Therefore "the angel of his presence" which "saved them", being "their Saviour" and "in his love" and "in his pity", that "he redeemed them" and "he bare them" and "carried them" "all the days of old"... is none other than Christ Jesus/Michael, the very "angel [messenger] of his [the Father's] presence".
Perhaps you might consider even Matthew Henry's Commentary, for he further links these passages to Michael/Christ Jesus [please consider reading the whole commentary on that section even beyond what is here given]:
"...But this is rather to be understood of Jesus Christ, the eternal Word, that angel of whom God spoke to Moses (Ex. 23:20, 21), whose voice Israel was to obey. He is called Jehovah, Ex. 13:21; 14:21, 24. He is the angel of the covenant, God’s messenger to the world, Mal. 3:1. He is the angel of God’s face, for he is the express image of his person; and the glory of God shines in the face of Christ. He that was to work out the eternal salvation, as an earnest of that, wrought out the temporal salvations that were typical of it. (3.)..." - Blue Letter Bible - Commentaries - Matthew Henry - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible
[4.] Thank you. Reference, John 5:23, Jesus is the "sent of the Father".
[5.] Not finding, could be due to translation used? "the presence of God"[Psalms 68:8], please allow me to quote from the KJV: "The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: [even] Sinai itself [was moved] at the presence of God, the God of Israel." Psalms 68:8; therefore we know it is in reference to Christ Jesus/Michael.
[6.] in Regards to Exodus 3:2, "the angel of the LORD", being Christ Jesus, is not 'that' contested [and only by few, usually of the arian faiths] but this too has now been shown, that this is GOD [the Son], Christ Jesus, the very "angel [messenger] of the LORD [the Father]", here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-8/#post60487923
[7.]"his angel" [Daniel 3:28]; cannot be any simple created 'angelic' being, due to the very context of Daniel 3, for by that context, it can only be Christ Jesus/Michael, the very "angel of the LORD":
If it be [so], our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver [us] out of thine hand, O king. Daniel 3:17
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Daniel 3:25
[Then] Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed [be] the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God. Daniel 3:28
Again, a bit of the Matthew Henry Commentary:
"...some think it was the eternal Son of God, the angel of the covenant, and not a created angel. He appeared often in our nature before he assumed it in his incarnation, and never more seasonable, nor to give a more proper indication and presage of his great errand into the world in the fulness of time, than now, when, to deliver his chosen out of the fire, he came and walked with them in the fire. Note, Those that suffer for Christ have his gracious presence with them in their sufferings, even in the fiery furnace, even in the valley of the shadow of death, and therefore even there they need fear no evil. Hereby Christ showed that what is done against his people he takes as done against himself; whoever throws them into the furnace does, in effect, throw him in. I an Jesus, whom thou persecutest, Isa. 63:9." - Blue Letter Bible - Commentaries - Matthew Henry - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible
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Lysimachus
Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
The Great Controversy concept actually began by some expositors in the 17th century, namely Thomas Tillam (1657)
http://www.sealingtime.com/media/The Seventh Day Sabbath Sought Out - Thomas Tillam - 1657.pdf
http://www.sealingtime.com/media/The Seventh Day Sabbath Sought Out - Thomas Tillam - 1657.pdf
Excerpt from Chapter 1 by Thomas Tillam in 1657:
"The first Royal Law that ever Jehovah instituted, and for our Example celebrated, (namely His blessed Seventh-day Sabbath,) is in these very last days become the last great controversy between the Saints and the Man of Sin, The Changer of Times and Laws. Awake ye slumbering Virgins, the figtree is apparently budded, the signs of his second coming who is The Lord of the Sabbath, are so fairly visible, that although the day and hour be not known, yet doubtless this generation shall crown obedient Saints with everlasting Rest..."
"The first Royal Law that ever Jehovah instituted, and for our Example celebrated, (namely His blessed Seventh-day Sabbath,) is in these very last days become the last great controversy between the Saints and the Man of Sin, The Changer of Times and Laws. Awake ye slumbering Virgins, the figtree is apparently budded, the signs of his second coming who is The Lord of the Sabbath, are so fairly visible, that although the day and hour be not known, yet doubtless this generation shall crown obedient Saints with everlasting Rest..."
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3 Angels Mesages said:
A Look at the word "Angel" in several various contexts:
"Angel":
"mal'ak" "מַלְאָךְ"; meaning: "messenger, representative", "messenger", "angel", "theophanic angel" "From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy" [Strong's Concordance]; "one sent, messenger", "a messenger of God" [Gesenius's Lexicon]
“aggelos” “ἄγγελος”; meaning: “a messenger”, “envoy”, “one who is sent”, “an angel [of the Heavenly Host]”, “messenger from GOD” [Strong's Concordance] [Thayer's Lexicon]
The word "Angel" in reference to heavenly created beings, like Gabriel, Lucifer [satan], Seraphim, Cherubims, etc.
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. Luke 1:19
And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, Luke 1:26
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14
Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Ezekiel 28:14
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Ezekiel 28:16
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings... Isaiah 6:2;p
Then flew one of the seraphims ... Isaiah 6:6;p
See also:
"Cherub": Exodus 25:19, 37:8; 2 Samuel 22:11; 1 Kings 6:24,25,26,27; 2 Chronicles 3:11,12; Ezra 2:59; Nehemiah 7:61; Psalms 18:10; Ezra 9:3, 10:2,4,7,9, 28:14,16, 41:18.
"Cherubims": Genesis 3:24; Exodus 25:18,19,20,22, 26:1,31, 36:8,35, 37:7,8,9; Numbers 7:89; 1 Samuel 4:4; 2 Samuel 6:2; 1 Kings 6:23,25,27,28,29,32,35, 7:29,36, 8:6,7; 2 Kings 19:15; 1 Chronicles 13:6, 28:18; 2 Chronicles 3:7,10,11,13,14, 5:7,8; Psalms 80:1, 99:1; Isaiah 37:16; Ezekiel 10:1,2,3,5,6,7,8,9,15,16,18,19,20, 11:22, 41:18,20,25; Hebrews 9:5.
"Seraphims": Isaiah 6:2,6.
"Living Creatures": Ezekiel 1:5,13,14,15,19, 3:13, see also "four beasts": Revelation 4:6,8, 5:6,8,11,14, 6:1,6, 7:11, 14:3, 15:7, 19:4.
"Four and Twenty Elders": Revelation 4:4,10, 5:5,6,8,11,14, 7:11,13, 11:16, 14:3, 19:4.
Let us now look at the word “Angel” in reference to others [mankind], when not referencing the other heavenly created beings [like Gabriel, Lucifer, Seraphim, Cherubim], etc.
For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he [is] the messenger of the LORD of hosts. Malachi 2:7
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me... Malachi 3:1;p
And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place: 2 Chronicles 36:15
Who [is] blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger [that] I sent? who [is] blind as [he that is] perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant? Isaiah 42:19
That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof: Isaiah 44:26
Then spake Haggai the LORD'S messenger in the LORD'S message unto the people, saying, I [am] with you, saith the LORD. Haggai 1:13
[We see, Priests and Prophets of the LORD [like John the Baptist, Haggai, etc], even His peoples, etc called "messengers"...]
And he hath slandered thy servant unto my lord the king; but my lord the king [is] as an angel of God: do therefore [what is] good in thine eyes. 2 Samuel 19:27
[We see that the King [Human] is referred to and compared as "an angel of God"]
And they said unto her, Thou art mad. But she constantly affirmed that it was even so. Then said they, It is his angel. Acts 12:15
[meaning Peter’s messenger, remember they thought that Peter was still in Prison. Those who were in Prison, like Peter and Paul had used “messengers” to communicate to those outside, and they did not want to believe that Peter was actually free especially so late at night, and merely thought Peter had sent them a messenger, “angel” means messenger, context always dictates its use.]
For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:13
[Remember that the word “Apostle” means “one who is sent”, and this passage is referring to Humans that are claiming to be “sent”, but are actually doing the work of satan, deceiving, for even he, satan, masquerades as an “angel” [messenger, angelic] of light, just as these false prophets [human], in a similar manner…]
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:14
Now, another:
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; Revelation 2:1
[each of the messages are to the “church” and their persons, so the word “angel” is in reference to men [mankind]]
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:8
And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; Revelation 2:12
And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass; Revelation 2:18
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Revelation 3:1
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Revelation 3:7
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; Revelation 3:14
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Revelation 14:6
[the 3 Angels Messages are given by the Remnant of God, and are speaking of those giving the message, like the 7th Day Adventist movement, and are therefore men [mankind], so we see that the word “angel” is always subject to context, and does not always mean a heavenly created being, but can reference men [created earthly beings], as well as Gabriel [created angelic being, or others, Lucifer, Cherubim, Seraphim], as well it can also reference as He who is CHRIST JESUS/MICHAEL [Uncreated/Eternal God [The Son] or [Holy Spirit]]]
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Revelation 14:8
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Revelation 14:9
In Revelation 10, we see a “mighty Angel” come down:
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: Revelation 10:1
And this "mighty Angel" is none other than JESUS CHRIST/MICHAEL, for look at the very description itself, and recompare to the very description we see in other places of scripture describing JESUS – like Daniel, Pillar of Fire/Smoke in the Wilderness of Moses [Exodus, etc], the Gospels [when Jesus was glorified upon the Mount, etc] and Revelation 1, etc and even consider the Rainbow, the very symbol of the Covenant, and the face lighted up [like upon the Mount of Transfiguration], and we are going to look at this a little further still, for these descriptions [even He who held the "little book [that part of Daniel, that was "sealed till the time of the end" and to be revealed] open"] all point to JESUS.
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3 Angels Messages said:
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS about MICHAEL ARCHANGEL/JESUS texts (continued):
Question 04:
How is it known that it was CHRIST JESUS/MICHAEL that Daniel saw in the vision of Daniel 10?
Answer 04:
By the very descriptions:
Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins [were] girded with fine gold of Uphaz: (Daniel 10:5)
His body also [was] like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. (Daniel 10:6)
And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. (Daniel 10:7)
[Compare to Saul - Acts 9, 22, 26]
Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. (Dan 10:8)
[compare to -
Moses, "...Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." [Ex 3:6;p],
Joshua, "And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?" [Jos 5:14],
Isaiah,"Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts." [Isa 6:5],
Ezekiel, "As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake." [Eze 1:28]]
Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. (Dan 10:9)
[Clothed in White Linen with a Gold Sash, White Hair as of Wool, Eyes were as a Flame of Fire, Feet like unto Fine Burnished Brass, Voice of an Archangel and Trumpet that sounds of Many Waters, which are able to Resurrect the Dead, Out of HIS Mouth went a Sharp Two-Edged Sword, and HIS countenance like that of the Sun, A Rainbow, etc]; now see the Book of Revelation:
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (Rev 1:10)
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last... (Rev 1:11;p)
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. ... I saw seven golden candlesticks; (Rev 1:12;p)
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. (Rev 1:13)
His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; (Rev 1:14)
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. (Rev 1:15)
...in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. (Rev 1:16;p)
...I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (Rev 1:17;p)
I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. (Rev 1:18)
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand... (Rev 1:20;p)
...and further:
...These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; (Rev 2:1;p)
...These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; (Rev 2:8;p)
...These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; (Rev 2:12;p)
Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. (Rev 2:16)
... These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass; (Rev 2:18;p)
...also:
...The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (John 5:25;p)
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (John 5:28)
And shall come forth ... good, unto the resurrection of life; ... evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29;p)
...also:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thess 4:16)
..also:
... I saw visions of God. (Eze 1:1;p)
And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings. (Eze 1:24)
And there was a voice from the firmament that [was] over their heads, when they stood, [and] had let down their wings. (Eze 1:25)
And above the firmament that [was] over their heads [was] the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne [was] the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. (Eze 1:26)
And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. (Eze 1:27)
As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake. (Eze 1:28)
Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. (Eze 3:1)
So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that roll. (Eze 3:2)
And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice [was] like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. (Eze 43:2)
...also:
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Dan 12:4)
...also:
see, "Pillar of fire": Ex 13:21,22, 14:24; Num 14:14; Neh 9:12,19; "cloud...of fire": Ex 40:38; Num 9:15,16; Deut 1:13, 5:22; Psa 78:14, 105:39; Isa 4:5; Eze 1:4, etc
...also:
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: (Rev 10:1)
And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and [his] left [foot] on the earth, (Rev 10:2)
And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. (Rev 10:9)
And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. (Rev 10:10)
...also:
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and ...(Rev 14:2;p)
Behold, I come quickly: ... (Rev 22:7;p)
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Rev 22:12)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Rev 22:13)
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star. (Rev 22:16)
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Rev 22:20)
...also:
I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (Isa 42:8)
...also:
For mine own sake, [even] for mine own sake, will I do [it]: for how should [my name] be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. (Isa 48:11)
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I [am] he; I [am] the first, I also [am] the last. (Isa 48:12)
...also:
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)
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OK, back to zeke37's last objection.
[However, before that, in case anyone missed the previous replies, here is the answer to:
[1]: http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476518 as was also regiven here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-2/#post60482573
[2]: http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485547
...and now to come back to part [3], although really, the answer is already given in [1], look more closely there, but to answer more thoroughly, let us look again]
...now going back to the text of Revelation 12 itself [quoted E-Sword]:
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
...what do we notice? We ought to take notice of a timeline inherent in the text itself, though not exactly in direct chronological order.
The objection that Michael [Archangel] [meaning: "Who is like unto God, the Highest Messenger"] cannot be Christ [Jesus], because both names [Michael and Jesus Christ] are used simulataneously, and Christ is so used before, during and after in Revelation 12, thus, as is intimated [like unto zeke37's post, or similar] by the objection, they are thus two separate individuals according to their held standard.
This reasoning, while it may appear admirable to defend Jesus from being downgraded to less than being Creator [though there is no element of that being held here, since Jesus/Michael is God [the Son] [Uncreated Creator], as scripture and I so freely give'; see latter half o this post - http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-3/#post60483954 ], this, 'defense', is not without serious fault according to the text and context itself. In trying to admirably 'defend' Jesus' full Diety/Godhead by separating Him from being Michael, the text is then broken, and we know that the scriptures cannot be so broken [John 10:35]. Let us see:
Let us begin with the "Dragon", to set up this pattern in Revelation 12 of numerous names/titles for the same being, for therein, we see that "the Dragon" is known by several names/titles/etc. "Dragon" [Rev. 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17], "serpent" [Rev. 12:9,14,15], "Devil" [Rev. 12:9,12], "Satan" [Rev. 12:9], "accuser of our brethen" [Rev. 12:10] and none of these are separate individuals being spoken of, for it is clear, that he [satan] has "angels" [Rev 12:7,9], which are separate followers of and from him.
So, when we look at Christ Jesus in Revelation 12, we now see also numerous names/titles,etc. Look at Jesus, being called, this "child" [Rev. 12:2,4,5], "man child" [Rev. 12:5,13], "it" [Rev. 12:4], "Michael" [Rev. 12:7] whom has "his angels" [Rev. 12:7], "Christ" [Rev. 12:10], "Lamb" [Rev. 12:11], "her seed" [Rev. 12:17], "Jesus Christ" [Rev. 12:17].
As the OP shows, this Chapter is focused upon that Great Controversy between Christ Jesus and those who follow Him, against Satan and those who follow him.
We also see that Revelation 12:5, makes a distinction between the "man [child]" or the "child" and "God", - so then, are we to erroneously conclude that Jesus is not God? Of course not, since this passage is speaking of Jesus [God, the Son] ascending unto "God" [the Father] from the Mount of Olives just before Pentecost in Acts, and we know that the Father is not the Son, as they are two persons, but this does not make Jesus less than Deity.
We also see that Jesus is he "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" [Rev. 12:5] and has "testimony" [Rev. 12:17] as well.
We may also know that this text of Revelation 12 is written in such a fashion that it is a 'prophetic key' text, and gives the 'revelation' to certain terms:
Michael = Jesus Christ, etc
Dragon = Satan, etc
...and thus throughout the scriptures and in Revelation we can be sure that these two terms stand for these two persons. That way, when we go back to Genesis, or elsewhere and read "serpent", we understand that satan/devil was involved there, etc, or when we read "Lamb" elsewhere we may understand that Jesus/Michael is involved there and so forth for the other terms.
Thus is Isaiah 28:10,13 and 1 Corinthians 2:13 fulfilled as we look at "precept" and "line", and "comparing spiritual things with spiritual", and scripture with scripture.
There is also inherently within the very texts of Revelation 12 a very specific structure, a chiastic structure [1,2,3,3,2,1, A,B,C,C,B,A, etc] which also cannot be broken. A general view seen here:
Revelation 12:1-5 [A1] = Woman and Child
Revelation 12:6 [B1] = 1,260 days [years]
Revelation 12:7-9 [C1] = War between Michael and Satan in Heaven
Revelation 12:10 [D1] = Cross, Power of Christ, His Victory
Revelation 12:11 [D2] = Lamb, Blood of Christ, Their [overcoming saints] Victory in Him
Revelation 12:12 [C2] = Dragon permanently cast down to Earth
Revelation 12:13-16 [B2] = Woman in Wilderness, for a time, and times, and half a time [aka, 3 1/2 times or 1,260 days [years]]
Revelation 12:17 [A2] = Woman and her seed
..in fact, just looking at the individual passage of Revelation 12:7, we can see another parallelism within this greater chiasm:
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Revelation 12:7
Michael [A1] - Leader
his angels [B1] - Followers
Dragon [A2] - Leader
his angels [B2] - Followers
...but if we read out a little further on each side of this text, we come to know more of these two Leaders/Rulers, as has been shown above.
For those considering, please now go back and recompare/contrast:
Michael to Dragon, Lamb to Serpent, Christ Jesus to Satan [accuser], Man Child to Devil, Caught Up to Cast Out [come down], Rule All to Cast Down, etc...
So we notice that the Son is named Michael Archangel while in Heaven while warring with the Dragon before, and then so named Christ Jesus on earth, and later also as ascended.
You may also consider this study:
http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=996&journal=1&type=pdf
Or also the a Total Chiasm of Revelation:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7562877-2/#post57599413
Or For a list of Biblical Symbols and their Identification:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7562877/#post57599366
The previous discussion posts being listed here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-11/#post60494936
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-11/#post60500594
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Allow me to demonstrate scripturally, that just because others [human, which are a creature of the Creator] in Scripture are also named "Michael", would not be blasphemous for them to be so named, nor would it bring Jesus/Michael Archangel down to being a created being; and so also, allow me to show that the conclusion jumped to in reply, in which it is posited, that just because others in Scripture were so name "Michael", does not then mean that "Michael [Archangel]" is also created, for it does not logically follow. That is leaping to where no one is in scripture is pointing to. Let us see why by gathering some points and evidence to consider.LionKing said:
[1] There is no contention that, "Yes." there are others [human] in Scripture are also named "Michael" [see section "A" below].
[2] There are many others given in scripture which also utilize the words "El", "Eli", "Yah", "Jah", "Jeho", etc in their own names. The following list will be by no means exhaustive, but very brief: Gabriel, Israel, Joseph, Ezekiel, Jehoshaphat, Elijah, Joab, Joshua, Nehemiah, Jeremiah, Abdiel, Abiah, Abiel, Abijah, and so on and so forth and for further study, please take some time to consider the whole here [ List of biblical names - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ].
As we can see, none of these [angelic creatures or humans], are claiming to be God simply by their name, nor are they being blasphemous in so having their names as such, nor does it then allow for the conclusion, that since they have these names, to then reduce the Deity/Godhead of Christ Jesus/Michael to that of creature. That simply does not follow logically.
Each of their names, is to bring glory to God, even as the Son [Michael/Jesus] does, bringing Glory to His Father:
Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, [and] for thy truth's sake. Psalms 115:11
I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8
For mine own sake, [even] for mine own sake, will I do [it]: for how should [my name] be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. Isaiah 48:11
...for Jesus directly says, that He glorifies the Father:
"And I seek not mine own glory:..." John 8:50;p
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying], I have both glorified [it], and will glorify [it] again. John 12:28
If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him. John 13:32
...and the Father glorifies the Son:
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: John 17:1
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
...it is therefore said of this Michael Archangel/Jesus:
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name [is] in him. Exodus 23:21
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Hebrews 1:4
[3] In fact, as we take a closer look at the name "Joshua" [[originally]"Oshea", son of Nun; Numbers 13:16], or even "Joshua the Highpriest" ["son of Josedech"; Haggai 1:1], and we may directly see that the Hebrew name of "Jesus" [Greek: Iēsous] is "Joshua" [Hebrew], see also Hebrews 4:8, for a comparison. Does this mean that "Joshua, son of Nun" and "Joshua the High Priest" are being blasphemous? Of course not. Does it mean that since, both of these created human beings are also named "Joshua" that it then reduces the complete Deity/Godhead of the Son of God? Of course not. Yet this is the very logic being applied in the case of the name Michael [Archangel].
[4] The reverse of the coin. That each of the listed humans in "A" are so named "Michael", does this make them all now also "Archangel" [or Highest Messenger of God,, God or Deity] as well? Of course, "No."
[5] Even as we see that no others in scripture [neither created human, nor created angelic being [like Gabriel, etc]] have the combined name/title, "Michael Archangel", neither do we see any other, so named "Jesus [Joshua] Christ". This is the distinctive to He, who is God [the Son] the eternal self-existant one, the very "angel", "messenger of the covenant" and "apostle" of Heaven, the "sent" of the Father, the very "mediator" between God and man, and "Who is like unto God, the Highest Messenger?", or "Who is like unto God, Jehovah our Salvation/Saviour?" There is none.
[A]
[Hebrew OT] "Michael" "Miyka'el" "מִיכָאֵל" [Strong's Concordance H4317]:
[Humans, created being]: Numbers 13:13; 1 Chronicles 5:13,14, 6:40, 7:3, 8:16, 12:20, 27:18; 2 Chronicles 21;2; Ezra 8:8
see also "Mishael" "Miysha'el" "מִישָׁאֵל" [Strong's Concordance H4332]:
[Humans, created being]: Exodus 6:22; Leviticus 10:4; Nehemiah 8:4; Daniel 1:6,7,11,19
see also "Mishael" "Miysha'el (Aramaic)" "מִישָׁאֵל" [Strong's Concordance H4333]:
[Humans, created being]: Daniel 2:17
see also "Micah", "Micaiah", "Michaiah" "Miykayĕhuw" "מִיכָֽיְהוּ" [Strong's Concordance H4321]:
[Humans, created being]: Judges 17:1,4; 1 Kings 22:8,9,13,14,15,24,25,26,28; 2 Chronicles 18:7,12,13,23,24,25,27; Jeremiah 36:11,13
see also "Micaiah" "Miykahuw" "מִיכָהוּ" [Strong's Concordance H4319]:
[Humans, created being]: 2 Chronicles 18:8
see also "Michaiah" "Miykah" "מִיכָה" [Strong's Concordance H4318]:
[Humans, created being]: Judges 17:5,8,9,10,12,13, 18:2,3,4,13,15,18,22,23,26,27,31; 1 Chronicles 5:5, 8:34,35, 9:40,41, 23:20, 24:24,25; 2 Chronicles 18:14, 34:20; Micah 1:1.
We see this unique person [Jesus] in all of scripture with such a designation as Michael Archangel...
["Michael" Archangel]:
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael4317, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:13
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael4317 your prince. Daniel 10:21
And at that time shall Michael4317 stand up , the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered , every one that shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1
[Greek NT] "Michael" "Michaēl" "Μιχαήλ" [Strong's Concordance G3413], and see also "archangel" "archaggelos" "ἀρχάγγελος" [Strong's Concordance G743]:
[Humans, created being]: none are so named.
[Michael and/or Archangel]:
Yet Michael3413 the archangel743, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said , The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9
And there was war in heaven: Michael3413 and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels. Revelation 12:7
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel743, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16
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My perspective on the end time...
12.25 2060, Isaac Newton, Seven Churches, and High Oil Prices - YouTube
12.25 2060, Isaac Newton, Seven Churches, and High Oil Prices - YouTube
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Which generation is Jesus talking about in Matt 24?
Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT
"this generation"
occurs 18 times in 17 verses
NKJV) Matthew 23:36 "Assuredly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)
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Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
Which generation is Jesus talking about in Matt 24?
Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT
"this generation"
occurs 18 times in 17 verses
NKJV) Matthew 23:36 "Assuredly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)
Unfortunately, God's people throughout every generation thought they were the "last generation". =/
This was a healthy way to think though, it's what kept God's people from getting discouraged.
Concerning the "This Generation Shall Not Pass Away", here are some excellent sources:
“This Generation Will Certainly Not Pass Away” What Did Jesus Mean?”
"This Generation Will Certainly Not Pass Away"
“This Generation Shall Not Pass” (Matt 24:34): Failed Or Fulfilled Prophecy?”
http://www.thesourcehh.org/pdf/Cont...d Davidson/This_Generation_Shall_Not_Pass.pdf
These were written by scholars.
Here is an article on Preterism, but the two articles above deal specifically with the one in Luke and Matthew.
Preterist and Preterism Bible Prophecy Truth
Get ready to change your theology after this.
It's been officially refuted.
--------------------------------------
Excerpt: http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1999/September/this-generation-will-certainly-not-pass-away
- by Hans K. LaRondelle
"This generation" in typological perspective
What did Jesus mean by the term "this generation" (Matt. 24:34)? Most commentators assume that Jesus referred to His contemporary generation. They point to Jesus' similar statement in Matthew 23:36, "I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." But this comparison does not prove a total identification, because the contexts differ. In chapter 23 Jesus speaks about the imminent doom of Jerusalem. In chapter 24 Jesus speaks about His second coming in glory. The contexts thus make the difference in the application of the phrase "this generation."
How long the period of His contemporary generation would last, Jesus did not indicate. He made the presence of the Roman armies near Jerusalem the climactic sign for His own generation, a sign that the apostles could see for themselves. Then they could flee safely to the mountains. To the existing generation of unbelieving Jews, Jesus made the startling announcement: "You will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord'" (Matt. 23:39). The Jewish people, both the living and the dead, will thus be arraigned before His future presence as the Judge (see Matt. 25:31-46). Jesus announced the same truth to the high priest Caiaphas: "From now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 26:64, NRSV; NASB margin; cf. Luke 22:69; Mark 14:62). Such a prediction requires the resurrection of Caiaphas at the second advent of Christ! The book of Revelation speaks of this: "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen" (Rev. 1:7).
Jesus' statement that "this generation shall not pass away" (Matt. 24:34; 26:64) is applied to all major opponents of Christ in every generation. They will all be resurrected at His second advent and face Him as their Judge. Jesus' point is not the chronological life span of "this generation" but His sure coming in judgment for His contemporary generation and for all who have "pierced Him" with their rejection.
Jesus did not declare that He would return within the time of the existing generation. Of His parousia He said: "No one knows that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come!" (Mark 13:32, 33). This answers the second question of Jesus' disciples concerning the timing of His second coming (Matt. 24:3).
Regarding the coming destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, Jesus answered that it would take place during His contemporary generation (Matt. 23:36). They were to experience the "time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written" (Luke 21:22). This judgment serves at the same time as a prophetic type of the last judgment, when "all the nations of the earth will mourn" because of Christ (Matt. 24:30; Rev. 1:7). Jesus' own generation thus functions as a type of the last generation that will reject the Messiahship of Jesus.
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Hi LLoJ,LittleLambofJesus said:
Participation is welcomed, and questions also. So, even though the link
The main objection stated, in the links provided by LLoJ, after therein was cited Revelation 12:7-11, is: "So how did Michael and his angels (messengers) overcome Satan?
By the Blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony.
So if Michael and his messengers overcame Satan by the blood of the LAMB, how is he the Lamb?". This is what shall be now addressed.
An answer to the objection was already seen in the following post, please consider that post before continuing with this response, as it reveals that the conclusion in LLoJ's linked OP is immediately invalid:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-11/#post60501092
...but for a further reponse, as to why the objection is not valid will be given here.
Let us recite that section, Revelation 12:7-12:
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Also, allow me to recite a portion of that response that is most relevant to the current objection:
Revelation 12:1-5 [A1] = Woman and Child
Revelation 12:6 [B1] = 1,260 days [years]
Revelation 12:7-9 [C1] = War between Michael and Satan in Heaven
Revelation 12:10 [D1] = Cross, Power of Christ, His Victory, Earth
Revelation 12:11 [D2] = Lamb, Blood of Christ, Their [overcoming saints] Victory in Him, Earth
Revelation 12:12 [C2] = Dragon permanently cast down to Earth
Revelation 12:13-16 [B2] = Woman in Wilderness, for a time, and times, and half a time [aka, 3 1/2 times or 1,260 days [years]]
Revelation 12:17 [A2] = Woman and her seed
...and so let us look closer at, and highlighting, the two middle verses, namely Revelation 12:10 and Revelation 12:11, for that is where shall see more fully that the objection is invalid.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
What do we notice the focus is upon in these two verses? It is dealing with the humans, people [creatures] of earth. Notice also, the very 'timing' that this victory takes place in Rev 12:10, "Now is come salvation..." When did that take place? It took place at the Cross, in the time of the [Legs of Iron, Fourth Beast, Little Horn [Chapter 8], time of the 69th - 70th week] 4th Kingdom of Daniel [Daniel 2:33,40, 7:7,17,19,23, 8:9,23, 9:22-27, 11:22], on earth. It was not during the "war in Heaven", which took place well before the events of the Cross, and of the Son of God [Jesus] taking upon himself humanity. We can verify this by the very next few words, "the power of His Christ", which Jesus was not anointed as Christ until AD 27 at the Jordan by the Holy Spirit in being Baptised, as the time prophecies of God given in Daniel and the Gospels relate to us.
Also, why were "they" accused by the Dragon/Satan? It was for their [our] sins and transgressions. We see the same with Satan argiung over Moses and also the same in Zechariah 3:1, with Satan, accusing Joshua the High Priest before Michael/Jesus, the "angel" [messenger of the Lord, Father] there:
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Zechariah 3:1
Another question we can then immediately ask is, Who "overcame" by "the blood of the Lamb" and "by the word of their testimony"? The context is clear it was those "they" humans [creatures] so named "brethren", which "loved not their lives unto death" on earth, this world. As far as we know from scripture, no "angel" [angelic creature, obedient, neither disobedient] has yet died, and those wicked ones [angels, created angelic fallen beings] are even now "...delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" [2 Peter 2:4;p] and "...reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." [Jude 1:6;p] when they shall be completely destroyed, both "root and branch" [Malachi 4:1]. We may also see futher, more use of this overcoming in the previous chapters of Revelation, that it deals with mankind, as it is given unto the "churches" [Revelation 3:22, etc]:
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it]. Revelation 2:17
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Revelation 2:26
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name. Revelation 3:12
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:7
...and we see it elsewhere, even by the same author, John the Apostle/Revelator:
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 1 John 2:13
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. 1 John 2:14
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 4:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. 1 John 5:4
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5
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In all courtesy and Christian charity, I am asking that you [and any] please refrain from introducing distracting topics into the thread. Please stay on OP topic, and in case it was somehow forgotten, or misunderstood, please see that OP here http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476518 . Thank you. If you [or any] would like to start another thread on that topic, or another, please do so, and please refrain from linking to it here. This OP is about the scriptural theology that Michael Archangel is Jesus, Uncreated Creator, God the Son, for Who is like Unto God, the Highest Messenger [sent] of the Father?
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What if the destruction of Herod's temple in ad70 was the type of final last judgement, which I view showing in chapts 1-19 in Revelation
And how much of the Olivet Discourse do the SDAs, MJs and Jews view as fulfilled?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923/
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled
The Destruction Of
JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible
PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF
CHRISTIANITY:
INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF
THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS
So far as they tend to verify
OUR LORD'S PREDICTIONS
Relative to that event.
JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible
PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF
CHRISTIANITY:
INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF
THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS
So far as they tend to verify
OUR LORD'S PREDICTIONS
Relative to that event.
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Lysimachus
Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations
I tried sending you a PM LittleLambOfJesus, but it says your Inbox is full.
Let me know when you clear some up.
Let me know when you clear some up.
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Links for additional [and/or similar] studies on the same topic:
JESUS In Book Of Daniel - The Biblical TRUTH
Everlasting Gospel
Who is Michael the Archangel in the Bible?
The Divine Christ in the Old Testament
An "Angel" Named Yahweh
Who Is Michael The Archangel?
Everlasting Gospel: An Angel called Jehovah
Everlasting Gospel: The Angel of Jehovah is not Jehovah himself?
Adventist Defense League
Original posts:
JESUS In Book Of Daniel - The Biblical TRUTH
Everlasting Gospel
Who is Michael the Archangel in the Bible?
The Divine Christ in the Old Testament
An "Angel" Named Yahweh
Who Is Michael The Archangel?
Everlasting Gospel: An Angel called Jehovah
Everlasting Gospel: The Angel of Jehovah is not Jehovah himself?
Adventist Defense League
Original posts:
3 Angels Messages said:
Lysimachus said:
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Close of Probation, soon... for the events of Daniel 11:40(b)-45 are soon to be fullfilled in rapid succession... and that which follows is...
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book Daniel 12:1
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Luke 13:25
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Matthew 25:10
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Revelation 22:11
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12
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MoreCoffee
Repentance works.
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I spent some time talking with an elder from the local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses - he paid me a visit, and in conversation told me he was an elder - he is a very polite and patient man, quite a shining light among his people and , in my opinion, a very good ambassador for his religion.
In our conversation he spoke of the great contest between Jehovah and Satan in which Jehovah's name will be vindicated and all Satan's lies will be refuted by the faithful goodness of Jesus Christ and of the witnesses. In his explanation he informed me that their religion (the people, to be more precise) is called Jehovah's witnesses because they are witnesses in a grand courtroom drama with Satan accusing mankind and Jehovah and Jehovah calling forth human witnesses (chief among whom is Jesus Christ) to defend Jehovah's name. In fact their religion takes it name, he said, from a passage in the bible, he then quoted this verse (from the New World Translation)
My New Jerusalem Bible says it slightly differently, thus:
Now, you may be wondering by now why I am writing all this about Jehovah's witnesses and their teaching about Jehovah vindicating his name. Well, my reason is this:
Now, having said what I think and having given some background about why I think it, I want to make an observation about this thread and especially about the the quote at the bottom of this post. This thread is unbalanced in its approach to scripture because it takes a theme, that is more incidental than it is central to scripture, and expands it into the chief theme of scripture. By doing this it makes a courtroom drama into the reason for everything that is said in the bible. Rather than seeing Jesus as the centre and circumference of the scriptural world view this thread places a controversy between Christ and Satan at the centre. In doing this scripture is distorted. I think that the Christians participating in this thread know this at heart and some will know it consciously and - I hope - have raised it as an objection to the thesis behind this thread. I hope you will all join me in fighting against this tendency to distort the scriptures and place Christ in the centre and in every place in your own reading of sacred scripture.
God be merciful to us all.
In our conversation he spoke of the great contest between Jehovah and Satan in which Jehovah's name will be vindicated and all Satan's lies will be refuted by the faithful goodness of Jesus Christ and of the witnesses. In his explanation he informed me that their religion (the people, to be more precise) is called Jehovah's witnesses because they are witnesses in a grand courtroom drama with Satan accusing mankind and Jehovah and Jehovah calling forth human witnesses (chief among whom is Jesus Christ) to defend Jehovah's name. In fact their religion takes it name, he said, from a passage in the bible, he then quoted this verse (from the New World Translation)
(Isaiah 43:10, 11) 10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
My New Jerusalem Bible says it slightly differently, thus:
(Isaiah 43:10-11 NJB) You yourselves are my witnesses, declares Yahweh, and the servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that it is I. No god was formed before me, nor will be after me. (11) I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Saviour but me.
Now, you may be wondering by now why I am writing all this about Jehovah's witnesses and their teaching about Jehovah vindicating his name. Well, my reason is this:
The sacred scriptures do include information about Satan accusing God's people and by implication impugning God's name. We can see this in the beginning chapters of Job, yet Satan accusations and the refutation of them is not a major theme in scripture. It is present but as a background story in some parts of scripture to explain specific incidents and specific issues that were at stake at the time of those incidents.
It is important to keep one's mind and heart firmly focused on what the scriptures do present as their major theme. That theme is Jesus Christ himself. His coming, his teaching, his miracles, his goodness, his love, his victory over death and his promises to us. The whole of the old testament was opened up to the disciples who were on the road to Emmaus by Jesus, after the resurrection, as he explained to them how all that was written in the scriptures was written about him. We ought to remember that the old testament and the new testament exist to bear testimony to Jesus Christ.
It is important to keep one's mind and heart firmly focused on what the scriptures do present as their major theme. That theme is Jesus Christ himself. His coming, his teaching, his miracles, his goodness, his love, his victory over death and his promises to us. The whole of the old testament was opened up to the disciples who were on the road to Emmaus by Jesus, after the resurrection, as he explained to them how all that was written in the scriptures was written about him. We ought to remember that the old testament and the new testament exist to bear testimony to Jesus Christ.
Now, having said what I think and having given some background about why I think it, I want to make an observation about this thread and especially about the the quote at the bottom of this post. This thread is unbalanced in its approach to scripture because it takes a theme, that is more incidental than it is central to scripture, and expands it into the chief theme of scripture. By doing this it makes a courtroom drama into the reason for everything that is said in the bible. Rather than seeing Jesus as the centre and circumference of the scriptural world view this thread places a controversy between Christ and Satan at the centre. In doing this scripture is distorted. I think that the Christians participating in this thread know this at heart and some will know it consciously and - I hope - have raised it as an objection to the thesis behind this thread. I hope you will all join me in fighting against this tendency to distort the scriptures and place Christ in the centre and in every place in your own reading of sacred scripture.
God be merciful to us all.
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I agree with you that Jesus Christ is the very heart of scripture and all else is peripheral. When individuals and/or churches focus on periperal matters then unorthodoxy enters which may, in time, lead to outright heresies.
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God is "Judge of all", yes?
We are all to "stand before the judgment seat of Christ", yes?
Christ Jesus is also called "Advocate" and "Mediator", yes?
Lucifer is called "satan", aka the "accuser of the brethren", yes?
There is also a case of "adultery", "murder", even of "bearing false witness", theft of "land" [property], usurpation of "dominion", etc, between God and his Creation, yes?
Lucifer is a "liar" [by the iniquity of his traffick], and "murderer" from the beginning, who "abode not in the truth", yes?
We see Lucifer, in the Book of Job, coming before God with such accusations, yes?
There is "the Law" and "Kingdom" of God, yes?
"...the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;" [1 Timothy 1:9-10], yes?
There is a "transgression of the law", yes?
There is an "everlasting covenant" "broken", yes?
There is to be an "inheritance" even of the "New Testament", yes?
God hath even sworn an "oath", yes?
There is to be "judging" and "judgment", and "books [of records,life,sin] opened", which involves the whole universe, angels [good and evil], men [good and evil], God, etc, yes?
The "the LORD hath a controversy" [riyb H7379], yes?
There are to be "witnesses of these things", yes?
Christ Jesus "plead
There is even a "sentence" pronounced in "judgment", yes?
There is even the time of "judging of the people" [Laodicea], yes?
In the Book of Daniel we see "..the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit ... thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." [Daniel 7:9-10;p] and "...the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion..." [Daniel 7:26]
God will even "execute" the "sentence" of His "Judgment", yes?
The scriptures speaks of even "...the day when God shall judge...", yes?
Is not even God Himself on trial of His very character, even as it is written in Romans 3:4 "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." and in Psalms 51:4.
Lucifer, abandoning his "first estate" [office] as the "cherub that covereth", desires "worship" 'in the place of God', and to "be like the Most High", even sitting "in the side of the North", above all, where God's Throne is, yes?
There was even "war [polemos G4171] in Heaven", yes?
All "injustice" to be "overturned", "judgment" given in favor of the "righteous", and the "wicked" are already "condemned", yes?
Ask yourself, why is it wrong to worship Lucifer or anyone other than God? For merely saying there is a 'rule' is not enough, why is the 'rule' correct?
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