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The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by 3 Angels Messages, May 6, 2012.

  1. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

    +12
    SDA
    The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon [iow - Jesus vs Satan]:

    The Great Controversy [Book; PDF]

    Who is MICHAEL ARCHANGEL according to the Word of GOD?

    Why do I, and others, including respected, even well-known protestant Bible commentators believe that the scriptures clearly reveal HIM to be none other than CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF before HIS coming to this earth in which he then clothed His divinity with humanity?

    Does this mean that CHRIST JESUS is somehow not GOD THE SON [the ETERNAL SELF-EXISTANT ONE, HE in whom is LIFE, unborrowed, underived, uncreated]?


    No, in no way.

    Please understand, that this study in no way degrades the Deity, Divinity [GODHEAD] of CHRIST JESUS, but rather it reveals that HE has always been the True and Ever-Living GOD who has ever taken a personal interest in us and battled for Truth and Life.

    Please continue with me as we look into the Scriptures upon this subject. Also please know that this subject is meatier than a great deal of subjects and takes some time to go through, and some have a more difficult time with it than others, for there are a great many misconceptions out there on it, but we shall look at what even the great protestant scholars believed and wrote.

    Why is it important to know?


    This subject touches upon the Great Controversy between CHRIST JESUS and Satan that has been ongoing even until now, and soon to come to an end...

    Let us see this Great Controversy:

    Notice this unbreakable [John 10:35] structure of identification:

    The Great Controversy, The Cosmic Conflict:

    [War in Heaven]

    [JESUS]"Michael" [Revelation 12:7;p]

    [Satan]"Dragon" [Revelation 12:7;p]

    [continued in the Garden of Eden]

    [JESUS]"blood of the lamb" [Revelation 12:11;p] being that "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" [Revelation 13:8;p; see Genesis 3:21, 4:4, etc]

    [Satan]"that old serpent" [Revelation 12:9;p, 12:14-15, 20:2; see Genesis 3:1,2,4,13,14]

    [continued in the Earth]

    [JESUS]"brought forth the man [child]" [Revelation 12:13;p]

    [Satan]"cast out into the earth" [Revelation 12:9;p], "the devil is come down" [Revelation 12:12;p]

    [continued in the Wilderness Temptations and Ministry]

    [JESUS]"his Christ" [Revelation 12:10;p]

    [Satan]"called the Devil" [Revelation 12:9;p] and "Satan" [Revelation 12:9;p] and "Being forty days tempted of the devil" [Luke 4:2, etc]

    [continued at The Cross]


    [JESUS]"the power of his Christ" [Revelation 12:10;p]

    [Satan]"the accuser of our brethren is cast down" [Revelation 12:10;p]

    [continued from then even until to this day...]

    [JESUS/Followers]"remnant of her seed" [Revelation 12:17;p; see also "the seed" Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16 and also Acts 9:4-5, 22:7-8, 26:14-15]

    [Satan/Followers]"the dragon was wroth" [Revelation 12:17;p], "face of the serpent" [Revelation 12:14;p]; "the serpent" [Revelation 12:15;p]

    JESUS/MICHAEL: "Who is like unto God?" [Exodus 15:11; 1 Kings 8:23; Psalms 71:19; see also Deuteronomy 33:26; 2 Chronicles 6:14; Job 36:22; Psalms 35:10, 86:8, 89:8, 113:5; Jeremiah 10:6-7; Micah 7:18]


    Satan behind the power:
    "Who [is] like unto the beast?" [Revelation 13:4;p]

    JESUS/MICHAEL: "...behold, the world is gone after him." [John 12:19;p]

    Satan behind the Beast: "...all the world wondered after the beast." [Revelation 13:3;p]

    So, who is MICHAEL according to the text?


    It is none other than JESUS, GOD the SON, Uncreated Creator of Heaven and Earth and the Sea and all that in them is.

    Revelation 12 seals the matter, permanently, but let us also consider many other texts so that there is no doubt whatsoever.

    There are two "princes" [rulers] …

    [1.] The Good [JESUS/MICHAEL, etc], the True and Everlasting "Prince" [GOD]

    [2.] The Wicked [Satan/Dragon/Serpent/Devil, etc], the usurping "prince" [creature]

    … let us look and see The Great Controversy still further:

    [JESUS/MICHAEL]

    "...the Prince of the Host..." [Daniel 8:11;p];
    "...the Prince of Princes..." [Daniel 8:25;p];
    "...Messiah the Prince..." [Daniel 9:25;p];
    "...Michael, one of the Chief Princes..." [Daniel 10:13;p];
    "...Michael your Prince..." [Daniel 10:21;p];
    "...the prince of the covenant..." [Daniel 11:22;p];
    "...Michael...the Great Prince..." [Daniel 12:1;p];
    "...the Prince of Peace..." [Isaiah 9:6;p];
    "...the Prince of Life..." [Acts 3:15;p];
    "...a Prince and a Saviour..." [Acts 5:31;p];
    "...Jesus Christ...Prince of the Kings of the Earth..." [Revelation 1:5;p].


    MICHAEL is not "merely a Prince of GOD's People", but is called in many places "Prince" [usually the word is "Sar" and means "Ruler, Prince, Chief", etc]:

    ...so, when considering the word in this light, "prince" means "ruler" or even "chief", then the language is more clear.

    ...and so CHRIST is also called all of those other Titles and names as well such as KING OF KINGS [Revelation 19:16] and this is not merely saying King of Kings of the Earth, but rather is saying HE is King over all Kings [compare with 1 Timothy 6:15, "Only Potentate"], KING OF THE JEWS [John 19:19], KING OF ISRAEL [John 1:49], the KING THAT COMETH [Luke 19:38] and LORD of LORD's [Revelation 17:14], the LORD FROM HEAVEN [1 Corinthians 15:47], the LORD OF ALL [Acts 10:36], the LORD OF PEACE [2 Thessalonians 3:16] etc.

    [Satan/Dragon/Serpent/Devil]

    "...devils through the prince of the devils." [Matthew 9:34;p];
    "...cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils." [Matthew 12:24;p];
    "...Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devil." [Mark 3:22;p];
    "...the prince of this world..." [John 12:31;p];
    "...the prince of this world..." [John 14:30;p];

    "...the prince of this world is judged." [John 16:11;p];
    "...the prince of the power of the air..." [Ephesians 2:2;p];
    "...against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]..." [Ephesians 6:12;p];
    "...thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers..." [Colossians 1:16;p];
    "...principalities and powers..." [Colossians 2:15;p].

    ...even Satan [the accusing usrper] is designated "god of this world" [2 Corinthians 4:4], "king" [Revelation 9:11], "lord" [Baal] [Judges 2:13], a "father" of the wicked ones [John 8:44], his "children of disobedience" [Ephesians 2:2, 5:6; Colossians 3:6]...

    Let us look deeper to be sure, but before we do, let us see if we are standing alone in this, or if this is also witnessed by others from the scriptures themselves...

    To follow will be quotations from many others who also held to this very teaching of scripture [Jesus Christ is Michael Archangel, Uncreated Creator, Eternal, GOD [the SON]].

    However, it must be said at the very beginning, none of these quotations were known of, until far after the HOLY SPIRIT had led in Bible study and prayer over this subject.

    Also, for the remainder of the study, the scriptures shall be the only source book, as they should be, and I would ask all to hear and consider the matter and study yourself, but let these be given so that all may know, that Truth can be known.

    "He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him." [Proverbs 18:13]
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
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  2. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

    +12
    SDA
    Let us look at those well respected commentators:

    Charles Spurgeon [Baptist]

    "Let the Lord Jesus Christ be for ever endeared to us, for through Him we are made to sit in heavenly places far above principalities and powers. He it is whose camp is round about them that fear Him; He is the true Michael whose foot is upon the dragon. All hail, Jesus! thou Angel of Jehovah’s presence, to Thee this family offers its morning vows." [Charles Spurgeon; Morning and Evening Daily Readings; page 556; Morning Devotion; October 3 on Hebrews 1:14] - October 3 : Spurgeon's Morning Devotional : HEARTLIGHT®

    "Michael will always fight; his holy soul is vexed with sin, and will not endure it. Jesus will always be the dragon’s foe, and that not in a quiet sense, but actively, vigorously, with full determination to exterminate evil." [Charles Spurgeon; Morning and Evening Daily Readings; page 673; Evening Devotion; November 30 on Revelaton 12:7] - Spurgeon's Morning and Evening

    John Gill [English Baptist Scholar]

    "Another prophecy in Dan. xii. 1, 2, 3. represents the second and personal coming of Christ ; for he is meant by Michael, who is as God, as his name signifies, equal to him ; the great prince, the prince of the kings of the earth, and the head of all principalities and powers." [A Complete Body of Practical and Doctrinal Divinity, The Baptist Standard Bearer, 1987 reprint, page 617; or A Body of Doctrinal Divinity; Book 7—Chapter 5; Of the Second Coming of Christ, and His Personal Appearance; section 1b2] -
    5. Of the Second Coming of Christ, and His Personal Appearance.

    "Yet Michael the archangel, &c. By whom is meant, not a created angel, but an eternal one, the Lord Jesus Christ; as appears from his name Michael, which signifies, "who is as God": and who is as God, or like unto him, but the Son of God, who is equal with God? and from his character as the archangel, or Prince of angels, for Christ is the head of all principality and power; and from what is elsewhere said of Michael, as that he is the great Prince, and on the side of the people of God, and to have angels under him, and at his command, Dan. 10:21, 12:1; Rev. 12:7. So Philo the Jew {o} calls the most ancient Word, firstborn of God, the archangel. ..." [John Gill's Exposition Of The Bible; Jude verse 9] - John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    "Michael and his angels fought against the dragon: by whom is meant not a created angel, with whom his name does not agree, it signifying "who is as God"; nor does it appear that there is anyone created angel that presides over the rest, and has them at his command. ..." [John Gill's Exposition Of The Bible; Revelation 12:7] - John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    "And at that time shall Michael stand up, &c. The Archangel, who has all the angels of heaven under him, and at his command, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ; who is as God, as the name signifies, truly and really God, and equal in nature, power, and glory, to his divine Father. ..." [John Gill's Exposition Of The Bible; Daniel 12:1] - John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    Jonathan Edwards [Congregational; Theologian]

    "When Lucifer rebelled and set up himself as a head in opposition to God and Christ, and set himself as a head in opposition to God and Christ, and drew away a great number of angels, the Son of God, manifested himself as an opposite head, and appeared graciously to dissuade and restrain by his grace the elect angels from hearkening to Lucifer’s temptation, so that they were upheld and preserved eternal destruction at this time of great danger by the free and sovereign distinguishing grace of Christ. Herein Christ was the Saviour of the elect angels, for thought he did not save them as he did elect men from the ruin they had already deserved, and were condemned to, and the miserable, state they were already in, yet he saved them from eternal destruction they were in great danger of, and otherwise would have fallen into with the other angels. The elect angels joined with him, the glorious Michael, as their captain, while the other angels hearkened to Lucifer and joined him, and then was that literally true that fulfilled afterwards figuratively. Rev xii. “When there was war in heaven : Michael and his angels fought against the dragon ; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not ; neither was there place found any more heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world ; he was case out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”" [The Works of Jonathan Edwards, Volume 2, Banner of Truth, 1979 reprint, page 606] -
    Works of Jonathan Edwards, Volume Two - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    Matthew Henry [English Bible Commentator; Presbyterian Minister]

    "Daniel 12:1 Vs. 1-4: Michael signifies, "Who is like God," and his name, with the title of "the great Prince," points out the Divine Savior. Christ stood for the children of our people in their stead as a sacrifice, bore the curse for them, to bear it from them. He stands for them in pleading for them at the throne of grace. And after the destruction of antichrist, the Lord Jesus shall stand at the latter day upon the earth; and He shall appear for the complete redemption of all his people." [Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary; Daniel 12:1] -
    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible

    "Michael and his angels fight against the devil and his angels, who are defeated. (7-12). . . .Revelation 12:7 Vs. 7-11: The attempts of the dragon proved unsuccessful against the church, and fatal to his own interests. The seat of this war was in heaven; in the church of Christ, the kingdom of heaven on earth. The parties were Christ, the great Angel of the covenant, and his faithful followers; and Satan and his instruments." [Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary; Daniel 12:7] - Revelation 12 Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible

    "I. Jesus Christ shall appear his church's patron and protector: At that time, when the persecution is at the hottest, Michael shall stand up, v. 1. The angel had told Daniel what a firm friend Michael was to the church, ch. 10:21. He all along showed this friendship in the upper world; the angels knew it; but now Michael shall stand up in his providence, and work deliverance for the Jews, when he sees that their power is gone, Deu. 32:3. 6. Christ is that great prince, for he is the prince of the kings of the earth, Rev. 1:5. And, if he stand up for his church, who can be against it? But this is not all: At that time (that is, soon after) Michael shall stand up for the working out of our eternal salvation; the Son of God shall be incarnate, shall be manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Christ stood for the children of our people when he was made sin and a curse for them, stood in their stead as a sacrifice, bore the cure for them, to bear it from them. He stands for them in the intercession he ever lives to make within the veil, stands up for them, and stands their friend. And after the destruction of antichrist, of whom Antiochus was a type, Christ shall stand at the latter day upon the earth, shall appear for the complete redemption of all his." [Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary; Daniel 12 verse 1-4] - Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the Bible

    ...to be continued...
     
  3. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    SDA
    ...continued...

    1599 Geneva Study Bible

    "5:14 And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and {g} did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? (g) In that Joshua worships him, he acknowledges him to be God: and in that he calls himself the Lord's captain he declares himself to be Christ." [1599 Geneva Study Bible; Footnote for Joshua 5:14] - geneva bible notes - joshua

    "Even though God could by one angel destroy all the world, yet to assure his children of his love he sends forth double power, even Michael, that is, Christ Jesus the head of angels." [1599 Geneva Study Bible; Footnote for Daniel 10:13] - geneva bible notes - daniel

    "10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: {q} and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. (q) For this angel [Gabriel] was appointed for the defence of the Church under Christ, who is the head of it." [1599 Geneva Study Bible; Footnote for Daniel 10:21] - geneva bible notes - daniel

    "The angel here notes two things: first that the Church will be in great affliction and trouble at Christ's coming, and next that God will send his angel to deliver it, whom he here calls Michael, meaning Christ, who is proclaimed by the preaching of the Gospel." [1599 Geneva Study Bible; Footnote for Daniel 12:1] - geneva bible notes - daniel

    "(14) Christ is the Prince of angels and head of the Church, who bears that iron rod Re 12:5 . Also see Geneva "Da 12:1". In this verse a description of the battle and of the victory in the two verses following Re 12:8,9 . The psalmist noted this battle as did Paul; Ps 68:9 Eph 4:8 Co 2:15 ." [1599 Geneva Study Bible; Footnote for Revelation 12:7] - geneva bible notes - revelation

    John Calvin ['The' Calvinist]

    "... As we stated yesterday, Michael may mean an angel; but I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people. ..." [John Calvin; Commentary On Daniel; Volume 2; Lecture Sixty-Five [65]] -
    Lecture Sixty-Five.

    John Wesley ['The' Methodist]

    "Verse 14. As captain - I am the chief captain of this people, and will conduct and assist thee and them in this great undertaking. Now this person is not a created angel, but the son of God, who went along with the Israelites in this expedition, as their chief and captain. And this appears,

    1. By his acceptance of adoration here, which a created angel durst not admit of, Rev. xxii, 8, 9.

    2. Because the place was made holy by his presence, ver. 15, which was God's prerogative, Exod. iii, 5.

    3. Because he is called the Lord, Hebrew. Jehovah, chap. vi, 2. My Lord - I acknowledge thee for my Lord and captain, and therefore wait for thy commands, which I am ready to obey."
    [
    John Wesley's Explanatory Notes; Joshua 5:14] - John Wesley's Notes on the Bible

    "10:5 A certain man - Very probably Christ, who appeared to Daniel in royal and priestly robes, and in so great brightness and majesty." [John Wesley's Explanatory Notes; Daniel 10:5] - John Wesley's Notes on the Bible

    "10:13 Michael - Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ. I remained - To counter - work their designs against the people of God." [
    John Wesley's Explanatory Notes; Daniel 10:13] - John Wesley's Notes on the Bible

    "10:21 Michael - Christ alone is the protector of his church, when all the princes of the earth desert or oppose it." [
    John Wesley's Explanatory Notes; Daniel 10:21] - John Wesley's Notes on the Bible

    "...so there will be yet a greater deliverance to the people of God, when Michael your prince, the Messiah shall appear for your salvation. ... The phrase at that time, probably includes all the time of Christ, from his first, to his last coming." [John Wesley's Explanatory Notes; Daniel 12:1] - John Wesley's Notes on the Bible

    Brown's Dictionary Of The Holy Bible [at least partially recognizes this; Calvinist]

    "MICHAEL, the archangel, at least sometimes signifies Jesus Christ. He is the person who is as God, and which this name signifies; against him and his angels, his ministers and followers, the devil, and the heathen empire of Rome, and their agents, fought in the way of reproach, laws, persecutions, &c. Rev. xii. 7. He is the great Prince ..., who,...shall raise the dead, Dan. xii. 1,2,3 ..." [Rev. John Brown's Dictionary of The Bible; page 95 "MIC-MID"; heading "Michael" [partial recognition is better than nothing]] - A dictionary of the Holy Bible - John Brown - Google Books

    James Wood Dictionary Of The Holy Bible [aka: Wood's Spiritual Dicionary, says the same; Methodist]

    "MICHAEL, the archangel, at least sometimes signifies Jesus Christ. He is the person who is as God, and which this name signifies: against him and his angels, his ministers and followers, the devil, and the heathen empire of Rome, and their agents, fought in the way of reproach, laws, persecutions, &c. Rev. xii. 7. He is the great Prince ..., who,...shall raise the dead, Dan. xii. 1,2,3 ..." [James Wood Dictionary Of The Bible; Volume 2; page 165 "MIC-MIC" - page 166 "MIC-MID"; heading "Michael" [partial recognition is better than nothing]] - A dictionary of the Holy Bible: containing an historical account of the ... - James Wood - Google Books

    Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg [Lutheran; Dr. and Prof. Of Theology, Berlin]

    "Michael is not mentioned again, after chap. x. 21, until chap. xii. 1, where it is said, "at that time shall Michael stand, the great prince, which standeth for the children of thy people." "The great prince" (equivalent to the King of kings in the Revelation), serves as the complement to "one of the chief princes." The rescue of Israel is here ascribed to Michael alone, and the subordinate task of Gabriel entirely vanishes. Bertholt supplies, in an arbitrary manner, "against the guardian spirit of the Graeco-Syrian kingdom." Michael has to deal directly with the imperial power. The personification is dropped, as a proof that it has no reality.


    The two passages in the New Testament, in which Michael is mentioned, serve to confirm the result already arrived at. That the Michael referred to in Rev. xii. 7 is no other than the Logos, has already been proved in my commentary upon that passage..." [Christology Of The Old Testament And A Commentary On The Messianic Predictions; Appendix iii; page 304 and onward] - Christology of the Old Testament: and a commentary on the Messianic predictions - Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg - Google Books

    ...to be continued...
     
  4. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

    +12
    SDA
    ...continued...

    Thomas Scott [Anglican; Priest]

    "Daniel 12 Verse 1: Michael signifies, Who is like God? And this name, with the title of “the great Prince, which standeth for the children of thy people,” most clearly points out the divine Saviour; and cannot properly be understood of a created angel." [Thomas Scott [Anglican Priest; founder of the Church Missionary Society]; The Holy Bible Containing The Old And New Testaments, According To The Authorized Version, With Explanatory Notes, Pracitcal Observations And Copious Marginal References; Notes - Daniel Chapter XII. V. 1.; page 839] -
    Old Testament.- v. 3. New Testament - John Brown - Google Books

    Thomas Haweis [Church Of England, Anglican]

    "Daniel 12:1. Christ, the great Prince, shall stand up in the time of great tribulation, ... or at the great day when he shall come to complete the redemption of his people, and to execute final vengeance on their enemies, when all that are written among the righteous, and found in the book of life of the Lamb, shall be delivered from the power of evil for ever." [Thomas Haweis; The Evangelical Expositor, A Commentary On The Holy Bible; Daniel 12:1 [a complete detailed link to the exact quote could not be found online at this time, but when it does it should be updated, here is the book; original source for quotation follows]] - http://books.google.com/books/about/The_evangelical_expositor_or_A_commentar.html?id=UdSbQwAACAAhttp:
    //everlasting-gospel.blogspot.com/2010/02/non-adventist-sources-confirming.html

    Adam Clarke's Commentary [Methodist; Theologian]

    "Michael, he who is like God, sometimes appears to signify the Messiah, at other times the highest or chief archangel. Indeed there is no archangel mentioned in the whole Scripture but this one. See Jude 1:9; Revelation 12:7." [Adam Clarke's Commentary; The Holy Bible Containing The Old And New Testaments: The Text Printed From The Most Correct Copies Of The Present Authorized Translation, Including The Marginal Readings And Parallel Texts, With A Commentary And Critical Notes. Designed As A Help To A Better Understanding Of The Sacred Writings, Volume IV [4]; Daniel 10; page 343] -
    The Holy Bible, containing the Old and New Testaments: the text printed from ... - Adam Clarke, Methodist Episcopal Church - Google Books


    "Notes on [Zechariah] Chapter III. Verse I. And he shewed me Joshua the Highpriest] The Angel of the Lord is the Messiah, as we have seen before ..." [Adam Clarke's Commentary; The Holy Bible Containing The Old And New Testaments: The Text Printed From The Most Correct Copies Of The Present Authorized Translation, Including The Marginal Readings And Parallel Texts, With A Commentary And Critical Notes. Designed As A Help To A Better Understanding Of The Sacred Writings, Volume IV [4]; Zechariah 3:1; page 499] - The Holy Bible, containing the Old and New Testaments: the text printed from ... - Adam Clarke, Methodist Episcopal Church - Google Books

    "Verse 9. Yet Michael the archangel Of this personage many things are spoken in the Jewish writings "Rabbi Judah Hakkodesh says: Wherever Michael is said to appear, the glory of the Divine Majesty is always to be understood." Shemoth Rabba, sec. ii., fol. 104,3. So that it seems as if they considered Michael in some sort as we do the Messiah manifested in the flesh."

    "Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host. Nor is the word devil, as applied to the great enemy of mankind, ever found in the plural; there can be but one monarch of all fallen spirits. Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders; the devil, great dragon, or Satan, is head of all the diabolic orders. When these two hosts are opposed to each other they are said to act under these two chiefs, as leaders; hence in Revelation 12:7, it is said: MICHAEL and his angels fought against the DRAGON and his angels. The word Michael seems to be compounded of mi, who, ke, like, and El, God; he who is like God; hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus." [Adam Clarke's Commentary; Jude 9] - Jude 1 Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

    "Michael was the man-child which the woman brought forth, as is evident from the context; ... ... Michael, he is "the great prince which standeth for the children of God's people." Dan. xii. 1." [
    Adam Clarke's Commentary; The Holy Bible Containing The Old And New Testaments: The Text Printed From The Most Correct Copies Of The Present Authorized Translation, Including The Marginal Readings And Parallel Texts, With A Commentary And Critical Notes. Designed As A Help To A Better Understanding Of The Sacred Writings, Volume VI [6]; Revelation 12:7; page 927; [he gets the idea right that Michael is the man-child, and the "great prince", which is obviously Jesus Christ, but though, to be true to the commentary, he writes that he thinks 'Michael' is the line of Christian Roman Emperors]] - The Holy Bible containing the Old and New Testaments: the text printed from ... - Adam Clarke - Google Books

    Abingdon Bible Commentary

    "The idea of the heavenly being who thus comes to view as a feature in old apocalyptic tradition is the source of the conception of the heavenly Messiah—the Son of Man. . . . We have already seen that the heavenly being 'like unto a son of man' of Dan. 7 was probably identified by the author . . . with Israel's angel—prince Michael; this angelic being was later, it would seem, invested with Messianic attributes, and so became the pre-existent heavenly Messiah." [Frederick Carl Eiselen; Edwin Lewis; David G. Downey; Abingdon Bible Commentary; page 846 [first link to mere book];
    [also see; The Ezra-Apocalypse; page 284 [second link; just beware it references apocryphal material like the so-called 'book of enoch']] - Abingdon Bible Commentary - Frederick Carl Eiselen - Google Books

    The Ezra-Apocalypse: being chapters 3-14 of the book commonly known as 4 ... - Google Books

    Lange's Commentary [Johann Peter Lange; German Calvinist]

    "We have shown elsewhere that the Archangel Michael is an image of Christ victoriously combatant. Christ is an Archangel in His quality of judge; and He appears as judge, not only at the end of the world, but also in the preservation of the purity of His Church." [Johann Peter Lange; Lange's Commentary; A Commentary Of The Holy Scriptures: Critical, Doctrinal And Homiletical, With Special Reference To Ministers And Students; page 238; Revelation 12:1-12] -
    A commentary on the Holy Scriptures: critical, doctrinal, and homiletical - Johann Peter Lange - Google Books

    Wikipedia [The Free Online Encyclopedia]

    "Some early Protestant scholars identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, basing their view, partly on the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Revelation 12, and partly on the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel. [38]"
    "[38] John A. Lees, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 1930, Vol. 3, page 2048" [Wikipedia; Michael (archangel)] - Michael (archangel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    International Standard Bible Encyclopedia [comment by John A. Lees]

    "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel." - John A. Lees" [International Standard Bible Encyclopedia; comment by John A. Lees; section "Michael"] - MICHAEL in the Bible Encyclopedia - ISBE (Bible History Online)

    Vine's Expository Dictionary [William Edwy Vine]

    "[* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 142.] In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the meaning seems to be that the voice of the Lord Jesus will be of the character of an "archangelic" shout"" [William Edwy Vine; Vine's Expository Dictionary; section "archangel"] - Archangel - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

    James Glasgow D.D. [Irish General Assembly's Professor Of Oriental Languages]

    "This being 'a war in the heaven,' and waged by Michael, who is Christ (whose warfare is not like that of earthly kings), and by His messengers, is an intellectual and polemical warfare." [James Glasgow, D.D. Irish General Assembly's Professor Of Oriental Languages, Late Fellow Of The University Of Bombay, And Late Member Of The Royal Asiatic Society, Bombay; The Apocalypse; page 334, on Revelation 12:7] - The Apocalypse - Google Books

    Now that we have seen all of these, let us not place our strength in men, nor their words, but in the Living God and His Word.
     
  5. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    Evidence that the Catholic Church was responsible for changing the identity of Michael from Christ to mean some powerful angel:

    Who is “Michael The Great Prince” in Daniel 12:1 ~ by Tim Roosenberg

    Dr. Frances N. Lee Professor-Emeritus of Systematic Theology and Church History, Queensland Presbyterian Theological Seminary, says.“The dominant Pre-Mediaeval view was that [Jesus] the Second Person of the Triune God Himself is “The Angel of the Lord”. This mainline traditional view of the Early Church was rediscovered by the Protestant Reformation and stressed also by Calvin [Martin Luther], and later by Matthew Henry, Haevernick, Keil, Delitzsch, and Hengstenberg, etc.”

    Who changed this understanding that Michael is Jesus? Would it be a surprise if I told you it was the Papacy?

    Dr Lee also states: “It was only with and after ‘Pope’ Gregory the Great (who died in 604), that later Scholastics such as Thomas Aquinas systematized an alternative view. Thus it became the view of the mediaeval Church that ‘The Angel of the Lord’ was merely a created archangel called Michael - and not the divine Michael-Christ as the one and only Archangel and uncreated Leader of all created angels (as in Daniel 12:1, First Thessalonians 4:16, Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7f).”

    Unfortunately when some groups have taught that Michael is Jesus, they have taught that Jesus was a created angel and not fully God. This is not true. However based on scripture, the early church and many of the reformers taught that Michael is Jesus the always existing creator, 2nd person of the Godhead. This is the view that we take. Lets look at the reasons for that conclusion.

    Definitions:

    - Michael means “who is like God” Jesus said “If you have seen me you have seen the Father”

    - Archangel means “chief or over the angels” (The President is Commander in Chief of the
    military, but he is not a soldier)

    - Angel means “messenger from God” and can be divine or created depending on title and context.


    Scripture Michael the prince:

    “At that time Michael shall stand up,The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;” Daniel 12:1. Throughout the book of Daniel we find that we have a Prince who is looking out for us.

    In Daniel 10:13 “Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me.”

    In Daniel 11:21 “No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.”

    In Daniel 9:25-27 Daniel tells us this Prince is the Messiah or Jesus: 25 “Until Messiah the

    Prince. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;” 27 Then he (Messiah the prince) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week.” This then also makes Messiah the Prince, the prince of the covenant because he is the one who confirms the covenant.

    Joshua 5:13-15 “Commander of the Lord’s Army” (Hebrew word sar the same word for prince in Daniel) Accepts worship & tells Joshua to take off shoes for he is standing on“holy ground”.


    Angel of the Lord as God:

    Exodus 3:2-14 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush... God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”... “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”...

    And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” (There are many other angel of the Lord/Jesus appearances in the Old Testament) In John 8:58, Jesus himself identifies himself as the I AM/ Angel of the Lord speaking from the bush. “Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” 59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him.”

    Exodus 14:19 “And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them. 20 So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night.” Paul indicates that it was Jesus with them. 1 Corinthians 10:1 “Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”


    Archangel and Resurrection:

    John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself... 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 ”For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.” So the voice of the archangel and the voice of Jesus are the Same.


    Conclusion:

    Michael is Jesus, the divine messenger, who is like God, for He is God the second person of the Trinity. He is not a created angel but Commander (arch/over) of the angels. He is our Messiah the Great Prince of the Covenant. He is also the creator and life giver the great I AM, who will raise the dead to life at His return.

    For further study see Who is Michael the Archangel in the Bible?

    PDF Article: http://www.islamandchristianity.org/~islama8/study-guides/Jesus is Michael.pdf
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    St. Michael the Archangel is not Christ.

    [/end thread]

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  7. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg [Lutheran; Dr. and Prof. Of Theology, Berlin]

    Do you disagree with this Lutheran professor? He's quoted in the above quotes by 3 Angels.

    The head angel that replaced Lucifer is actually Gabriel. After Lucifer was kicked out, Gabriel took his place. There is no cherubim named Michael. Michael is simply God the Son--never created, from all eternity. Fully deity. Fully God. He is commander of all the angelic hosts, and he is the chief messenger to humankind.
     
  8. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    I don't suppose you have Scriptural evidence that support such claims ready at hand?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  9. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    If this Professor Hengstenberg believed that St. Michael the Archangel is the pre-Incarnate Logos (Jesus Christ) then yes, I most certainly disagree with him.

    A thousand Lutherans could confess St. Michael as being Jesus Christ and they would still be wrong; even if every Lutheran throughout the whole world or even every Christian of every denomination confessed this it would be wrong.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  10. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    The Basic Definitions:

    Michael: Hebrew: “Miyka'el” “מיכאל”; meaning: “who is like GOD” [Strong's Concordance] or “who is like unto GOD?” [Gesenius's Lexicon]; from Hebrew: “miy” “מי”; meaning: “who” and “kiy” “כי”; meaning: “that”, “yea”, “surely” and “'el” “אל”; meaning: “GOD”, “YHVH” [Strong's Concordance].

    Greek: “Michaēl” “Μιχαήλ”; meaning: “who is like GOD” [Strong's Concordance] or “who is like GOD?” [Thayer's Lexicon]. So, the definition can also be described as: “Who is like unto God?” or “who surely [is] GOD”, “who that [is] GOD” and/or “[HE] who [is] what GOD [is]”, see and compare: Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Hebrews 1:3).

    Archangel: Greek: “archaggelos” “ἀρχάγγελος”; meaning: “archangel”, “Chief of Angels” [Strong's Concordance] [Thayer's Lexicon]; from Greek: “archō” “ἄρχω”; meaning: “to be Chief”, “Leader”, “Ruler” and “aggelos” “ἄγγελος”; meaning: “a messenger”, “envoy”, “one who is sent”, “an angel [of the Heavenly Host]”, “messenger from GOD” [Strong's Concordance] [Thayer's Lexicon]. So, the definition can rightly be concluded to mean “Chief or Ruler over those who are sent” or “Chief or Highest messenger” or “ruler over angels [messengers]”, etc.

    Apostle: Greek: “apostolos” “ἀπόστολος”; meaning: “delegate”, “messenger”, “one sent forth” [Strong's Concordance] [Thayer's Lexicon]. So, the definition can rightly be said to mean “One who is sent forth”. [see Hebrews 3:1, Christ Jesus called "the Apostle"]

    WORD: Greek: “logos” “λόγος”; meaning: “of speech”, “a word”, “sayings of GOD” [Strong's Concordance] or “collection of things put together in thought” [Thayer's Lexicon]. So, the definition can rightly be said to also mean “the WORD”, “the Message”, “that which is said by GOD”, “the thoughts of GOD towards us” [see John 1:1, etc, Christ Jesus called "the Word"]

    Does each of the above apply to Christ Jesus? They do.

    Let us see how in the scriptures.

    Jesus is called "the Word" in John 1:1, and "the Word" signifies "the Logos". The Word was sent into the world John 1:1-18; etc. The greatest message of the love of GOD, the SON of the FATHER.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

    He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John 1:10

    He came unto his own, and his own received him not. John 1:11


    Jesus is called "the Apostle" in Hebrews 3:1 and "the Apostle" signifies "the sent". CHRIST JESUS was sent into the world by the FATHER, the greatest messenger of Love of GOD, the SON of the FATHER.

    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. (John 3:11)

    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)

    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (1 John 5:10)

    Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence [him] when they see him. (Luke 20:13)

    I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30)

    But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. (John 5:36)

    And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. (John 5:37)

    And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:39)

    I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. (John 8:18)

    Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (John 8:42)

    Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:36)

    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. (John 12:49)

    And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. (1 John 4:14)


    Now, let us see if Jesus is anywhere called "Prince", "Chief", "Captain", "Ruler" and "Messenger", etc directly:

    “Messiah the Prince”, “the Prince of the Host”, “Prince of Princes”, "the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people", "Prince of Life", "a Prince and Saviour", "Jesus Christ...Prince of the Kings of the Earth" and “Prince of Peace”, etc:

    Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (Daniel 9:25)

    Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. (Daniel 8:11)

    And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. (Daniel 8:25)

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

    And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. (Acts 3:15)

    Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. (Acts 5:31)

    And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (Revelation 1:5)


    So who then is "the Prince" on the side of Good?

    It is Christ Jesus.

    Is there then an opposing side, such as a prince of evil, a usurping prince, a false claimant, one who has said in their heart "I will be like the Most High"?

    Yes, and these passages will be seen in the coming studies of the scriptures.

    We shall recognize that there is a Great Controversy between these two...

    But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. (Daniel 10:13)[each of the follwoing passages are to be discussed in greater detail a little later]

    But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. (Daniel 10:21)

    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Daniel 12:1)

    And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? (Joshua 5:14)


    What about "Messenger"? Is Jesus ever directly called this?

    Yes.

    Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. (Malachi 3:1)

    Also consider for future study, remember, the word "angel" simply means "messenger" and the context always details its use, and in further study we shall see this in far greater detail:

    In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. (Isaiah 63:9)

    Let us first gather the texts which specifically name Michael Archangel, or Archangel or Michael, and a little later we shall look much more closely at them:

    There are only 3 Old Testament passages that directly name Michael [as to the person whom we are discussing]:

    ...but, lo, Michael...(Daniel 10:13;p)

    ...[there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. (Daniel 10:21;p)

    And at that time shall Michael ... (Daniel 12:1;p)


    There are only 2 New Testament passages that directly name Michael:

    Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil ... (Jude1:9;p)

    And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (Revelation 12:7)


    There is 1 additional New Testament passage that directly speaks of the Archangel:

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel... (1 Thessalonians 4:16;p)

    Now let us look in more detail...
     
  11. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, Jesus is GOD [the SON]. Thus the Name/Title, MICHAEL - "Who is like unto God?" There is none...

    But, shouldn't we recognize this saying/question? Where have we heard a similar boast in opposition to it? Let us see closer...


    Recap:

    Michael: Hebrew: “Miyka'el” “מיכאל”; meaning: “who is like GOD” [Strong's Concordance] or “who is like unto GOD?” [Gesenius's Lexicon]; from Hebrew: “miy” “מי”; meaning: “who” and “kiy” “כי”; meaning: “that”, “yea”, “surely” and “'el” “אל”; meaning: “GOD”, “YHVH” [Strong's Concordance].

    Greek: “Michaēl” “Μιχαήλ”; meaning: “who is like GOD” [Strong's Concordance] or “who is like GOD?” [Thayer's Lexicon]. So, the definition can also be described as: “Who is like unto God?” or “who surely [is] GOD”, “who that [is] GOD” and/or “[HE] who [is] what GOD [is]”, see and compare: Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Hebrews 1:3).


    So we have Christ Jesus, Michael "Who is like unto God?"

    Is it not repeated and answered in scripture?

    "Who [is] like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who [is] like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful [in] praises, doing wonders?" [Exodus 15:11]

    "...LORD God of Israel, [there is] no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath..." [1 Kings 8:23;p]

    "Thy righteousness also, O God, [is] very high, who hast done great things: O God, who [is] like unto thee!" [Psalms 71:19].


    See also Deuteronomy 33:26; 2 Chronicles 6:14; Job 36:22; Psalms 35:10, 86:8, 89:8, 113:5; Jeremiah 10:6-7; Micah 7:18.

    And so we also have Satan behind the [1st] Beast of Revelation 13 [the Beast power which "stands in and/or takes the place of the Son" in the unholy tri-in-unity, Dragon [Satan, the Father of lies], the Beast [satan behind it, standing in and/or taking the place of the Son, "anti-christos" [greek] or "vicarius christi" [latin]], and the False Prophet [2nd Beast of Revelation 13; apostate protestant north america], thus taking the place of the Holy Spirit, by a false and lying spirit] where it is said of the Beast, "Who [is] like unto the beast?" [Revelation 13:4;p].

    So we have a direct correlation in Revelation 13 of the ongoing Great Controversy and/or Cosmic Conflict between Michael [Christ Jesus] and Satan. We have already seen that this is proven to be so by the very texts and structure of Revelation 12 and many others, and we shall also study the texts of Daniel etc..

    And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Revelation 12:1

    And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Revlation 12:2

    And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Revelation 12:3

    And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Revelation 12:4

    And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. Revelation 12:5

    And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days. Revelation 12:6

    And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Revelation 12:7


    Notice that Michael has angels [they are his] and the Dragon has angels. Notice that the word "Dragon" in this instance is merely another name/title for Satan/Lucifer.

    We shall also find throughout Revelation that proper names are primarily symbolic of something they signify. [For instance, "Gog and Magog", "Jezebel", "Antipas", "Balaam", "Babylon", etc.]

    Thus, since the "Dragon" is "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan" [Revelation 13:9;p], we then may conclude by immediate context and structure that "Michael" is also found to be identified clearly in the surrounding verses as well.

    In fact, they are both [Michael and Dragon] identified chiastically in several ways as we have already seen from the first post so as to make no mistake in their identities and their identities cannot be broken as given from Revelation 12. We also know that Revelation is about a revealing of Jesus Christ throughout...

    Let us look at some further texts...

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (John 5:25) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (John 5:28) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29)

    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52


    One passage says that the LORD shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, so raising the Dead, and the other passages say that the voice of the Son of GOD will be heard and then the Dead shall be brought forth from their graves, either unto Life or Damnation.

    Is this two voices being heard as some like to suggest? Or is it rather, according to the scripture, that the Voice of the Archangel and that of the Son of GOD are the same voice?

    This last fits perfectly with these texts and others, which declare that the Voice itself is the cause of the resurrection of the Dead.

    So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 14:12

    O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13

    If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14

    Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands. Job 14:15

    As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. Psalms 17:15

    God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet. Psalms 47:5

    Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. Psalms 50:3

    He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Psalms 50:4

    Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread [the grapes], against all the inhabitants of the earth. Jeremiah 25:30

    Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Isaiah 26:19

    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31


    Compare also Exodus 19 and 20, when GOD came down, the sound of the "trumpet".

    I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Revelation 1:10

    After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Revelation 4:1


    CHRIST JESUS is MICHAEL ARCHANGEL, our LORD and GOD who shall come, and shall call to the earth and HE shall Roar from on High, a mighty roar, with a shout, and shall not keep silent, with a great voice, as of a trumpet, with the voice of the ARCHANGEL [the Highest Messenger], and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first, those who have died in the LORD shall awake and shout and sing...
     
  12. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    Let us now consider another comparison:

    That of Joshua with the Captain of the Host of the LORD and Moses with the LORD GOD - Shoes, Worship and Holy Ground:

    Joshua:

    And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, [Art] thou for us, or for our adversaries? (Joshua 5:13)

    And he said, Nay; but [as] captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? (Joshua 5:14)

    And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy. And Joshua did so. (Joshua 5:15)



    Moses:


    And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed. (Exodus 3:2)

    And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I. (Exodus 3:4)

    And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground. (Exodus 3:5)

    Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. (Exodus 3:6)

    And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my peoplewhich [are] in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; (Exodus 3:7)

    And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. (Exodus 3:8)



    Acts:

    And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. (Acts 7:30)

    When Moses saw [it], he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold [it], the voice of the Lord came unto him, (Acts 7:31)

    [Saying], I [am] the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. (Acts 7:32)

    Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. (Acts 7:33)

    I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt. (Acts 7:34)

    This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send [to be] a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. (Acts 7:35)

    This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. (Acts 7:37)

    This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: (Acts 7:38)


    One passage says that Joshua met a “man over against him with his sword drawn” that had come to him as the “Captain of the LORD's Host” and he then “fell on his face” and did “Worship” unto him.

    This “Worship” was never turned away as any other “Angel” [Created host of Heaven or created messenger, a man] would have immediately done:

    And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Revelation 19:10)

    Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. (Revelation 22:9)


    JESUS said to Satan:

    Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Matthew 4:10)

    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (Luke 4:8)


    Peter also knew:

    And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him]. (Acts 10:25)

    But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. (Acts 10:26)


    However, this “Captain of the LORD's Host” instead tells Joshua to “loose thy shoes from off thy foot; for the place whereupon thou standest [is] holy.” and accepts the worship of Joshua, who like Moses bowed his face to the ground.

    In the other passage the “Angel of the LORD” appears “in the midst of a burning bush”, but then it is said that it is “GOD” who calls out from “the midst of the burning bush” and says to Moses, “put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place where upon thou standest [is] holy ground”, and then Moses “hid his face”, for he “was afraid to look upon GOD” and it was “GOD” who was “come down to deliver” Israel.

    It is clear that the “Angel of the LORD” [this is not a Created being, but CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF, GOD the SON, the HIGHEST MESSENGER, the SENT OF THE FATHER], also called the “Captain of the LORD's Host” is actually MICHAEL/JESUS
    ...
     
  13. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    I don't know how you can deny the scriptural evidence. It's so clear to me. But then again, everyone tends to read the Bible the way they want to. I personally feel I am not doing that, but I know you will disagree. So that is that.
     
  14. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    Thank you for sharing 3 Angels. The scriptural, line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept, is quite compelling.
     
  15. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

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    in Daniel 10, Michael is not described as one describes God.
    he is but "one" of obv. more than one chief princes (plural),
    not consistant with the whole gist of the Bible.

    in Jude, all Michael "the arcangel" says to Satan is "the Lord rebuke you",

    inconsistant with Christ's actions in the Gospels.

    in Rev Jesus Christ is called by name, before and after the Michael text of Rev12.
    so your theory lacks consistency. no offence.....
     
  16. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    Hi CryptoLutheran,

    I understand the hesitancy [and for all who may be so, for I was too at first], especially upon this subject, as I used to believe the same way as a Roman Catholic growing up [though I am now Seventh Day Adventist], but once I began to study and the Holy Spirit led, the scriptures really opened up on this subject and I had to go with what they teach, because I love Jesus and want to know all about Him and I want to know what He has done, is doing, and will do throughout the ages for His people, as it endears me to Him. He is always there working out our salvation, and has battled against Satan since Lucifer chose to rebel in heaven.

    So, I really do understand where you are coming from, but if I may so ask that you [or any] please give some time to consideration, and that you please give the scriptural quotations themselves a chance to reveal what they say on this subject - or if you have a question please ask, and it may be addressed in a post to come. There is a great deal more to come on the subject, and I hope that you might see the same awesome love of Christ Jesus in this subject.

    All I am asking is for a bit more time to lay out the scriptures, and take as much time as you need to go through them.
     
  17. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    In a post to come, these shall be addressed [though the first objection is already answered in the OP - http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126/#post60476518 , see the part about the "princes" ], and I hope that you may consider those answers at that time. Thank you!
     
  18. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

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    I find it interesting how the YLT renders it:

    "And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia." (Daniel 10:13, YLT)

    While the KJV translates the Hebrew word "echad" as "one", the YLT renders it "first".

    This word does have this secondary meaning:

    'echad - Strong's 0259:
    1. one (number)
    a. one (number)
    b. each, every
    c. a certain
    d. an (indefinite article)
    e. only, once, once for all
    f. one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
    g. first
    h. eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)​

    Concerning the rest of what you said, I could answer those, but I'm sure 3 Angel's will have the answer.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  19. Nik0s

    Nik0s Guest

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    Archangel Michael, you show in yourself the strength of an unconquerable zeal for the glory of God. At the head of the choirs of angels, you have withstood the arrogant Satan, exceedingly proud and breathing out evil when he and his dark fellow-servants had been cast down into the nethermost parts of the world, while the heavenly hosts led by you in your glory shouted as with one voice for joy before the throne of God: Alleluia!
     
  20. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    It is clear that the “Angel of the LORD” [this is not a Created being, but CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF, GOD the SON, the HIGHEST MESSENGER, the SENT OF THE FATHER], also called the “Captain [Ruler] of the LORD's Host” is actually MICHAEL/JESUS, yet what about as John says, “No man has seen GOD at any time”, as some like to quote:

    No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. (John 1:18)

    No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (1 John 4:12)


    However, if “no man has seen GOD at any time” then who did the Patriarch's see?:

    And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham. (Genesis 17:22)

    And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I [am] the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I [am] with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake. (Genesis 26:24)

    And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I [am] the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; (Genesis 28:13)

    And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (Genesis 32:30)

    Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. (Exodus 3:6)

    That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee. (Exodus 4:5)

    And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. (Exodus 6:3)

    And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. (Exodus 33:11)

    And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, (Deuteronomy 34:10)

    And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. (Judges 13:22)


    Whom they all saw was MICHAEL/JESUS, for later, John clarifies that “no man has seen the FATHER, save he which is of God”:

    Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:46)

    Captain: Hebrew: “sar” “שר”; meaning: “Prince”, “Ruler”, “Chief”, “Leader”, “Captain”, “Ruler of Rulers” [Strong's Concordance] [Gesenius's Lexicon].

    So, the definition of “Captain of the LORD's Host” can also mean “Prince of the LORD's Host”, “Ruler of the LORD's Host” and “Ruler of Rulers of the LORD's Host”.

    This is the perfect description of Michael/JESUS as has already been seen, “...Michael, one of the chief princes...” (Daniel 10:13), “...Michael your prince...” (Daniel 10:21), and “...Michael... the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people...” (Daniel 12:1). This word “Captain” is the exact same word used in the “Great Prince”, “Prince of Peace”, “Prince of the Host” and “Prince of Princes”.

    Who can the Highest Commander, Prince of the Host, Chief of the “Angels”, who commands them, be but Michael/JESUS, as has already been seen, “...Michael and his angels fought against the dragon...” (Revelation 12:7).

    Who is it that the “Armies of Heaven” follow and are commanded by, and who is it that fights and makes war? Michael/JESUS:

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (Revelation 19:11)

    His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (Revelation 19:12)

    And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Revelation 19:13)

    And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14)

    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Revelation 19:15)

    And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (Revelation 19:16)

    And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (Revelation 19:19)
    .

    MICHAEL/JESUS and HIS armies...

    Let us now consider another comparison:

    "The Angel of GOD" before Israel [the peoples] in the Pillar of Cloud and Pillar of Fire compared to "the LORD" before Israel [the peoples] in the Pillar of Cloud and Pillar of Fire:

    Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. (Exodus 23:20)

    Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name [is] in him. (Exodus 23:21)

    But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. (Exodus 23:22)

    For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. (Exodus 23:23)

    But God led the people about, [through] the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt. (Exodus 13:18)

    And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: (Exodus 13:21)

    And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: (Exodus 14:19)

    And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, (Exodus 14:24)



    And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood [at] the door of the tabernacle, and [the LORD] talked with Moses. (Exodus 33:9)

    The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. Isaiah 19:1

    And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand [at] the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man [in] his tent door. (Exodus 33:10)

    [Notice that word, "worshipped" in direct association with the "cloudy pillar"]


    And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. (Exodus 33:11)

    And he said, My presence shall go [with thee], and I will give thee rest. (Exodus 33:14)

    [compare also to "Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28; and "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20]

    [Please notice the word
    "My presence", and go back unto Genesis 3:8, 4:16and see also 1 Chronicles 16:33; Psalms 68:2, etc, many times in Psalms]

    And he said unto him, If thy presence go not [with me], carry us not up hence. Exodus 33:15

    The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: [even] Sinai itself [was moved] at the presence of God, the God of Israel. Psalms 68:8

    Say unto them, Whosoever [he be] of all your seed among your generations, that goeth unto the holy things, which the children of Israel hallow unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, that soul shall be cut off from my presence: I [am] the LORD. Leviticus 22:3


    Also compare the Great Controversy again in the Book of Job, between CHRIST/MICHAEL [who is the "presence of GOD", "the Angel of HIS presence"] and Satan/Dragon:

    And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Job 1:2

    So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. Job 2:7


    ...to be continued...
     
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