The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon

Lysimachus

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I merely glanced through this thread...am I to understand that the SDA believe that St. Michael the Archangel is Jesus? Just as the JW's?

Please correct me if I am mistaken...

In a very different way though. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael was a cherubim angel. Adventists believe that Michael is just another name for the Son of God, yet not created, Fully Divine, just like the Father. Equal with the Father. Not an angel.

"Michael the Archangel" simply means, "Michael, chief over the angels", or "Michael the Archangel", "archangel" also means "arch-messenger".

Most of the Reformers believed Michael was the Son of God, including Spurgeon, Calvin, Matthew Henry, Wesley, you name it....

It is orthodox teaching. But most Protestants today forgot that.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I tried sending you a PM LittleLambOfJesus, but it says your Inbox is full.

Let me know when you clear some up. ;)
I have over 600 pms to clean out when I was a mod trainee and I am just too lazy to clean 'em out :D

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Defensor Christi

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In a very different way though. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael was a cherubim angel. Adventists believe that Michael is just another name for the Son of God, yet not created, Fully Divine, just like the Father. Equal with the Father. Not an angel.

"Michael the Archangel" simply means, "Michael, chief over the angels", or "Michael the Archangel", "archangel" also means "arch-messenger".

Most of the Reformers believed Michael was the Son of God, including Spurgeon, Calvin, Matthew Henry, Wesley, you name it....

It is orthodox teaching. But most Protestants today forgot that.

Thanks for the insight...that is something I was unaware of concerning the SDA...

Oh, on a side-note, you must know that I am not at all impressed with which reformers believed what...being, ya know, Catholic and all ;)

Why would Scripture refer to the Son of God as an Angel?
 
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Thanks for the insight...that is something I was unaware of concerning the SDA...

Oh, on a side-note, you must know that I am not at all impressed with which reformers believed what...being, ya know, Catholic and all ;)

Why would Scripture refer to the Son of God as an Angel?

Probably because the Greek word is also translated as messenger. Some folks take that word and spin to refer to the pastor of their local church because he brings messages from God to them. In this case, the idea seems to be that Jesus Christ is the pre-eminent messenger from God. As a result, they think that He must have been Michael prior to His incarnation.
 
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Lysimachus

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Yeah, "aggellos" also means "messenger", not necessarily a cherubim with wings.

In Malachi 3:1, we are told, "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

Everyone knows this is talking about the Son of God. This same word for "messenger" is used for "angel" in Hebrew as well, several times. Context demands how the word is to be used.

We don't believe Michael is an angel in the original sense of the word, but the English translators somehow thought to translate "agellos" as "angel" even though we believe it is to be used as "messenger" in this context.
 
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Even early Roman Catholic "fathers", and "eastern" understood these things, but were later crowded out by the "Latins", but the Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia, even makes some very tacit admissions of this subject [barring most of the standard rhetoric and lawyerishness in the RC encyclopedia, specific points will be picked out and cited]...

Speaking of "the Angel Of The Lord"...

"... We have had occasion to mention the Septuagint version more than once, and it may not be amiss to indicate a few passages where it is our only source of information regarding the angels. The best known passage is Isaiah 9:6, where the Septuagint gives the name of the Messias, as "the Angel of great Counsel". ...

... The Massoretic text as well as the Vulgate of Exodus 3 and 19-20 clearly represent the Supreme Being as appearing to Moses in the bush and on Mount Sinai; ... The person of "the angel of the Lord" finds a counterpart in the personification of Wisdom in the Sapiential books and in at least one passage (Zechariah 3:1) it seems to stand for that "Son of Man" whom Daniel (7:13) saw brought before "the Ancient of Days". Zacharias says: "And the Lord showed me Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan stood on His right hand to be His adversary". Tertullian regards many of these passages as preludes to the Incarnation; as the Word of God adumbrating the sublime character in which He is one day to reveal Himself to men (cf. Against Praxeas 16; Against Marcion 2.27, 3.9, 1.10, 1.21-22). ... The earlier Fathers, going by the letter of the text, maintained that it was actually God Himself who appeared. He who appeared was called God and acted as God. It was not unnatural then for Tertullian, as we have already seen, to regard such manifestations in the light of preludes to the Incarnation, and most of the Eastern Fathers followed the same line of thought. It was held as recently as 1851 by Vandenbroeck, "Dissertatio Theologica de Theophaniis sub Veteri Testamento" (Louvain).

... St. Augustine (Sermo vii, de Scripturis, P.G. V) when treating of the burning bush (Exodus 3) says: "... . . . Some maintain that he is called both the Lord and the angel of the Lord because he was Christ, indeed the prophet (Isaiah 9:6, Septuagint Version) clearly styles Christ the 'Angel of great Counsel.'" The saint proceeds to show that such a view is tenable though we must be careful not to fall into Arianism in stating it. ...

... As an instance of how convinced some of the Fathers were in holding ..., we may note Theodoret's words (In Exod.): "The whole passage (Exodus 3) shows that it was God who appeared to him. But (Moses) called Him an angel in order to let us know that it was not God the Father whom he saw — for whose angel could the Father be? — but the Only-begotten Son, the Angel of great Counsel" (cf. Eusebius, Church History I.2.7; St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:6). ..."
[Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; Section "A", subsection "Angels", part "The term "angel" in the Septuagint"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Angels

*It must be noted that Roman Catholicism currently does not, I repeat, currently does not belive Michael Archangel to be Pre-Incarnate Jesus, but rather just a high order of created being, but they should consider a little more of 'their' history, and more importantly Scripture...

http://awhn.webs.com/jesusinbookofdaniel.htm
 
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Catholic Sources on Christophanies, please notice what is said about "the Angel of the Lord", and the definitions of "John" the Baptist and "angels" as messengers...

Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies book III, chapter 6:

2. Wherefore, as I have already stated, no other is named as God, or is called Lord, except Him who is God and Lord of all, who also said to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM. And thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: He who is, hath sent me unto you;" and His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who makes those that believe in His name the sons of God. And again, when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, "I am come down to deliver this people." For it is He who descended and ascended for the salvation of men.


CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.6 (St. Irenaeus)

Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies book IV, chapter 10:

1. ... "For if ye had believed Moses, ye would also have believed Me; for he wrote of Me;" [saying this,] no doubt, because the Son of God is implanted everywhere throughout his writings: at one time, indeed, speaking with Abraham, when about to eat with him; at another time with Noah, giving to him the dimensions [of the ark]; at another; inquiring after Adam; at another, bringing down judgment upon the Sodomites; and again, when He becomes visible, and directs Jacob on his journey, and speaks with Moses from the bush.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, IV.10 (St. Irenaeus)

ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA also says it was the Saviour who spoke from the burning bush:


"The Saviour ... spake by the burning bush..."

See: CHURCH FATHERS: Exhortation to the Heathen, Chapter 1 (Clement of Alexandria)

THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN MARTYR.

Chapter LXIII.[63] - How God Appeared to Moses.


And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said "The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand."131 And Jesus the Christ ... Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, "He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me."133 From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, "And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people."134 And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes...

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 113:

" ... I have proved that it was Jesus who appeared to and conversed with Moses, and Abraham, and all the other patriarchs without exception,..."

CHURCH FATHERS: Dialogue with Trypho, Chapters 48-54 (Justin Martyr)

Eusebius Pamphili, Bishop of Caearea in Palestine, Hist. Eccles., I, ii, 7

Chapter 2. Summary view of the pre-existence and divinity of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.


... You will perceive also from the same words that this was no other than he [Jesus] who talked with Moses. For the Scripture says in the same words and with reference to the same one, "When the Lord saw that he drew near to see, the Lord called to him out of the bush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, What is it? And he said, Draw not nigh hither; loose thy shoe from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. And he said unto him, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."


CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book I (Eusebius)

TERTULLIAN, AN ANSWER TO THE JEWS, (Adversus Iudaeos)

TRANSLATED BY THE REV. S. THELWALL.

CHAP. IX. -- OF THE PROPHECIES OF THE BIRTH AND ACHIEVEMENTS OF CHRIST

... For He who ever spake to Moses was the Son of God Himself; who, too, was always seen.169 ... the Spirit, ... calls the forerunner of Christ, John, a future "angel," through the prophet: "Behold, I send mine angel before Thy" - that is, Christ's - "face, who shall prepare Thy way before Thee."173

169 Comp. Num. xii. 5-8. ...
173 Mal. iii. 1: comp. Matt. xi. 10; Mark i. 2; Luke vii. 27.


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0308.html

Bishop Melito of Sardis:

The Lord Jesus Christ is acknowledged as the perfect Reason, the Word of God; ... who was Creator with the Father; who was the Fashioner of man; who was all things in all; Patriarch among the patriarchs, Law in the law, Chief Priest among the priests, King among the kings, Prophet among the prophets, Archangel among the angels;

History of the Christian Church, Volume II: Ante-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 100-325. - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

New American Bible for Catholics, Exo 3:2 footnote:

2 [2] An angel of the LORD: the visual form under which God appeared and spoke to men is referred to indifferently [without distinction] in some Old Testament texts either as God's angel or as God himself. Cf Genesis 16:7, 13; Exodus 14:19, 24, 25; Numbers 22:22-35; Jdgs 6,11-18.

scripture
 
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Let us see yet further from Eusebius:

"...3. For who beside the Father could clearly understand the Light which was before the world, the intellectual and essential Wisdom which existed before the ages, the living Word which was in the beginning with the Father and which was God, the first and only begotten of God which was before every creature and creation visible and invisible, the commander-in-chief of the rational and immortal host of heaven, the messenger of the great counsel, the executor of the Father's unspoken will, the creator, with the Father, of all things, ...

...7. But he, by no means neglectful of the reverence due to the Father, was appointed to teach the knowledge of the Father to them all. For instance, the Lord God, it is said, appeared as a common man to Abraham while he was sitting at the oak of Mambre. And he, immediately falling down, although he saw a man with his eyes, nevertheless worshipped him as God, and sacrificed to him as Lord, and confessed that he was not ignorant of his identity when he uttered the words, "Lord, the judge of all the earth, will you not execute righteous judgment?" Genesis 18:25 ...

... 9. Moses most clearly proclaims him second Lord after the Father, when he says, "The Lord rained upon Sodom and Gomorrha brimstone and fire from the Lord." Genesis 19:24 The divine Scripture also calls him God, when he appeared again to Jacob in the form of a man, and said to Jacob, "Your name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel shall be your name, because you have prevailed with God." Genesis 32:28 Wherefore also Jacob called the name of that place "Vision of God," saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30 ...

...10. Nor is it admissible to suppose that the theophanies recorded were appearances of subordinate angels and ministers of God, for whenever any of these appeared to men, the Scripture does not conceal the fact, but calls them by name not God nor Lord, but angels, as it is easy to prove by numberless testimonies.

11. Joshua, also, the successor of Moses, calls him, as leader of the heavenly angels ... and as lieutenant of the Father, entrusted with the second rank of sovereignty and rule over all, "captain of the host of the Lord," although he saw him not otherwise than again in the form and appearance of a man. For it is written:

12. "And it came to pass when Joshua was at Jericho that he looked and saw a man standing over against him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went unto him and said, Are you for us or for our adversaries? And he said unto him, As captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and said unto him, Lord, what do you command your servant? And the captain of the Lord said unto Joshua, Loose your shoe from off your feet, for the place whereon you stand is holy."

13. You will perceive also from the same words that this was no other than he who talked with Moses. For the Scripture says in the same words and with reference to the same one, "When the Lord saw that he drew near to see, the Lord called to him out of the bush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, What is it? And he said, Draw not near hither; loose your shoe from off your feet, for the place whereon you stand is holy ground. And he said unto him, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."...

...16. That the divine Word, therefore, pre-existed and appeared to some, if not to all, has thus been briefly shown by us. ...

...24. For instance, Daniel the prophet, under the influence of the divine Spirit, seeing his kingdom at the end of time, was inspired thus to describe the divine vision in language fitted to human comprehension: "For I beheld," he says, "until thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days did sit, whose garment was white as snow and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was a flame of fire and his wheels burning fire. A river of fire flowed before him. Thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. He appointed judgment, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9-10

25. And again, "I saw," says he, "and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and he hastened unto the Ancient of Days and was brought into his presence, and there was given him the dominion and the glory and the kingdom; and all peoples, tribes, and tongues serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and his kingdom shall not be destroyed." Daniel 7:13-14

26. It is clear that these words can refer to no one else than to our Saviour, the God Word who was in the beginning with God, and who was called the Son of man because of his final appearance in the flesh. ..."
[Roman Catholic Online "Fathers Of The Church"; "Church History (Eusebius), Book I; Chapter 2. Summary View of the Pre-existence and Divinity of Our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ."; sections, as cited, throughout] - CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book I (Eusebius)
 
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bugkiller

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Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg [Lutheran; Dr. and Prof. Of Theology, Berlin]

Do you disagree with this Lutheran professor? He's quoted in the above quotes by 3 Angels.

The head angel that replaced Lucifer is actually Gabriel. After Lucifer was kicked out, Gabriel took his place. There is no cherubim named Michael. Michael is simply God the Son--never created, from all eternity. Fully deity. Fully God. He is commander of all the angelic hosts, and he is the chief messenger to humankind.
Yeah so what? If I know anything about SDA quoting any one it is incomplete or totally misrepresented to make a point. I have both personal experience with this in being quoted and checking with quoted sources for context.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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The Basic Definitions:

Michael: Hebrew: “Miyka'el” “מיכאל”; meaning: “who is like GOD” [Strong's Concordance] or “who is like unto GOD?” [Gesenius's Lexicon]; from Hebrew: “miy” “מי”; meaning: “who” and “kiy” “כי”; meaning: “that”, “yea”, “surely” and “'el” “אל”; meaning: “GOD”, “YHVH” [Strong's Concordance].

Greek: “Michaēl” “Μιχαήλ”; meaning: “who is like GOD” [Strong's Concordance] or “who is like GOD?” [Thayer's Lexicon]. So, the definition can also be described as: “Who is like unto God?” or “who surely [is] GOD”, “who that [is] GOD” and/or “[HE] who [is] what GOD [is]”, see and compare: Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Hebrews 1:3).
So do you not like your own definitions?

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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In a very different way though. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Michael was a cherubim angel. Adventists believe that Michael is just another name for the Son of God, yet not created, Fully Divine, just like the Father. Equal with the Father. Not an angel.

"Michael the Archangel" simply means, "Michael, chief over the angels", or "Michael the Archangel", "archangel" also means "arch-messenger".

Most of the Reformers believed Michael was the Son of God, including Spurgeon, Calvin, Matthew Henry, Wesley, you name it....

It is orthodox teaching. But most Protestants today forgot that.
IOW Jesus is a Johnny-come-lately to the God head. Naw, I do not think so.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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Yeah, "aggellos" also means "messenger", not necessarily a cherubim with wings.

In Malachi 3:1, we are told, "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

Everyone knows this is talking about the Son of God. This same word for "messenger" is used for "angel" in Hebrew as well, several times. Context demands how the word is to be used.

We don't believe Michael is an angel in the original sense of the word, but the English translators somehow thought to translate "agellos" as "angel" even though we believe it is to be used as "messenger" in this context.
For me this exposes one of the chief problems with SDA theology and communicating with them.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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I spent some time talking with an elder from the local Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses - he paid me a visit, and in conversation told me he was an elder - he is a very polite and patient man, quite a shining light among his people and , in my opinion, a very good ambassador for his religion.

In our conversation he spoke of the great contest between Jehovah and Satan in which Jehovah's name will be vindicated and all Satan's lies will be refuted by the faithful goodness of Jesus Christ and of the witnesses. In his explanation he informed me that their religion (the people, to be more precise) is called Jehovah's witnesses because they are witnesses in a grand courtroom drama with Satan accusing mankind and Jehovah and Jehovah calling forth human witnesses (chief among whom is Jesus Christ) to defend Jehovah's name. In fact their religion takes it name, he said, from a passage in the bible, he then quoted this verse (from the New World Translation)
(Isaiah 43:10, 11) 10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”
My New Jerusalem Bible says it slightly differently, thus:
(Isaiah 43:10-11 NJB) You yourselves are my witnesses, declares Yahweh, and the servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that it is I. No god was formed before me, nor will be after me. (11) I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Saviour but me.
Now, you may be wondering by now why I am writing all this about Jehovah's witnesses and their teaching about Jehovah vindicating his name. Well, my reason is this:
The sacred scriptures do include information about Satan accusing God's people and by implication impugning God's name. We can see this in the beginning chapters of Job, yet Satan accusations and the refutation of them is not a major theme in scripture. It is present but as a background story in some parts of scripture to explain specific incidents and specific issues that were at stake at the time of those incidents.

It is important to keep one's mind and heart firmly focused on what the scriptures do present as their major theme. That theme is Jesus Christ himself. His coming, his teaching, his miracles, his goodness, his love, his victory over death and his promises to us. The whole of the old testament was opened up to the disciples who were on the road to Emmaus by Jesus, after the resurrection, as he explained to them how all that was written in the scriptures was written about him. We ought to remember that the old testament and the new testament exist to bear testimony to Jesus Christ.
Now, having said what I think and having given some background about why I think it, I want to make an observation about this thread and especially about the the quote at the bottom of this post. This thread is unbalanced in its approach to scripture because it takes a theme, that is more incidental than it is central to scripture, and expands it into the chief theme of scripture. By doing this it makes a courtroom drama into the reason for everything that is said in the bible. Rather than seeing Jesus as the centre and circumference of the scriptural world view this thread places a controversy between Christ and Satan at the centre. In doing this scripture is distorted. I think that the Christians participating in this thread know this at heart and some will know it consciously and - I hope - have raised it as an objection to the thesis behind this thread. I hope you will all join me in fighting against this tendency to distort the scriptures and place Christ in the centre and in every place in your own reading of sacred scripture.

God be merciful to us all.
There are a few of us that do this every day and some of us way more than a full days work. Personally I have spent 16 or more hours doing this. I have had to slow down and address life issues such as eating. No work - no eat.

You may have noticed the SDA players here usually do not answer questions and instead provide something tolally unrelated when pinched in a corner. There can be no coherent dialog with them. They have even admitted to replying to a post without even reading it. That would qualify as spam in my opinion.

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bugkiller

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The Great Controversy concept actually began by some expositors in the 17th century, namely Thomas Tillam (1657)

http://www.sealingtime.com/media/The Seventh Day Sabbath Sought Out - Thomas Tillam - 1657.pdf
Excerpt from Chapter 1 by Thomas Tillam in 1657:
"The first Royal Law that ever Jehovah instituted, and for our Example celebrated, (namely His blessed Seventh-day Sabbath,) is in these very last days become the last great controversy between the Saints and the Man of Sin, The Changer of Times and Laws. Awake ye slumbering Virgins, the figtree is apparently budded, the signs of his second coming who is The Lord of the Sabbath, are so fairly visible, that although the day and hour be not known, yet doubtless this generation shall crown obedient Saints with everlasting Rest..."
Theme yes, however it appears the SDA have changed the players.

bugkiller
 
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Yeah so what? If I know anything about SDA quoting any one it is incomplete or totally misrepresented to make a point. I have both personal experience with this in being quoted and checking with quoted sources for context.

bugkiller
In this thread:

"Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?" - John 18:23
 
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