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The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by 3 Angels Messages, May 6, 2012.

  1. ptomwebster

    ptomwebster Senior Member

    3 Angels Messages,

    Michael the archangel is NOT Jesus Christ.
  2. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member


    In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9

    Who is the SAVIOUR, REDEEMER, who bare them and us?

    Who is "afflicted" for us and them?

    JESUS CHRIST, the very "presence of GOD" the "Angel of HIS [the FATHER's] presence".

    ["If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." John 14:7 and "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?" John 14:9][That is has seen and understands the Character of the Father]

    Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isaiah 53:4

    And in the wilderness, where thou hast seen how that the LORD thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went, until ye came into this place. (Deuteronomy 1:31)

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy [place] within the vail before the mercy seat, which [is] upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. (Leviticus 16:2)

    And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood [in] the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth. (Numbers 12:5)

    And they will tell [it] to the inhabitants of this land: [for] they have heard that thou LORD [art] among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and [that] thy cloud standeth over them, and [that] thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night. (Numbers 14:14)

    The LORD your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes; (Deuteronomy 1:30)

    [recompare to Joshua and "Captain of the Host of the LORD" Joshua 5:14]

    Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God, (Deuteronomy 1:32)

    Who went in the way before you, to search you out a place to pitch your tents [in], in fire by night, to shew you by what way ye should go, and in a cloud by day. (Deuteronomy 1:33)

    For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee. (Deuteronomy 23:14)

    And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle. (Deuteronomy 31:15)

    Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go. (Nehemiah 9:12)

    Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments: (Nehemiah 9:13)

    Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go. (Nehemiah 9:19)

    He spake unto them in the cloudy pillar: they kept his testimonies, and the ordinance [that] he gave them. (Psalms 99:7)

    One passage says that the “Angel of the GOD” went before Israel in the Pillar of a Cloud by Day and in the Pillar of Fire by Night, while the other passage says that the “LORD” did so, while another says that “thou LORD art seen face to face”.

    Also notice, “he will not pardon your transgressions...” (Exodus 23:21).

    The passage does not say “he cannot pardon your transgressions” but says, “he will not pardon”.

    Who is the only one able to pardon transgressions? GOD alone.

    Also notice, “...my name [is] in him. ...” (Exodus 23:21). This is somewhat reminiscent of John:

    I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (John 5:43)

    ...and Hebrews:

    Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Hebrews 1:4)

    ...and "...shall call his name Immanuel" [Isaiah 7:14]

    ...and "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." Matthew 1:23

    [see also Psalms 46:7,11, "The LORD of Hosts [is] with us"]

    ...and "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:19, etc.

    Who was it at Mt. Sinai in that burning bush?

    And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. (Exodus 3:8)

    And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exodus 3:14)

    And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations. (Exodus 3:15)

    That they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath appeared unto thee. (Exodus 4:5)

    Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore [they shall know] in that day that I [am] he that doth speak: behold, [it is] I. (Isaiah 52:6)

    Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad. (John 8:56)

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58)

    For more on Jesus as GOD, see:

    Jesus is God [the Son]:







































    ...now to continue with MICHAEL/JESUS texts...
  3. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

    Well, I hope that you remain to consider the further scriptural texts that are coming, that you might take some time to reconsider carefully. I am not asking anyone to jump in without a lot of study, neither without much scriptural evidence... for I know that this study is more difficult for some and takes time.

    I used to believe the very same as your sentiment, but since studying the scriptures carefully and in prayer on it, and further seeing that other great Bible scholars too came to the conclusion that Michael is Jesus, I would just ask you take that time to prayerfully consider.
  4. Nik0s

    Nik0s Guest

    You can twist scripture all you want, but it won't change the fact that the disgusting heresy you're preaching is false. ICXC NIKA
  5. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" (Isaiah 28:9,10)

    It is flabbergasting how you can possibly call this "heresy".

    You do realize that you just threw out the majority of our Protestant reformers out the window and labeled them all heretics?

    To label Christ as "Michael" is not heretical. What is heretical is to believe that Michael (who is Christ) is a created cherubim/angel (like the JW's wrongfully do).

    But Michael is God, from all eternity. He is equal with God the Father.

    Scriptures are clear: There is NONE like God. Obviously then, Michael cannot be an cherubim angel, for if Michael were a cherubim angel, his very name would be blasphemous! "One who is like God"

    Thus, to make Michael a created angel is HERETICAL, for it would mean believing in a blasphemous being.
  6. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member


    "The Angel of the LORD", whose name is "Wonderful" and "CHRIST JESUS", whose name is "Wonderful":

    "And the angel of the LORD appeared..." Judges 13:3;p

    "...A man of God came unto me, and his countenance [was] like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he [was], neither told he me his name:" Judges 13:6;p

    "Then Manoah intreated the LORD, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us..." Judges 13:8;p

    "And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman..." Judges 13:9;p

    "And the angel of the LORD ..." Judges 13:13;p

    "And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD...". Judges 13:15;p

    "And the angel of the LORD ... offer it unto the LORD. For Manoah knew not that he [was] an angel of the LORD." Judges 13:16;p

    "And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What [is] thy name,..."Judges 13:17;p

    And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it [is] secret [“wonderful”, “extraordinary”, “marvellous”; see Strong's Concordance]? Judges 13:18

    "...the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on [it], and fell on their faces to the ground." Judges 13:20;p

    But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he [was] an angel of the LORD. Judges 13:21

    "...We shall surely die, because we have seen God." Judges 13:22;p

    But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these [things], nor would as at this time have told us [such things] as these. Judges 13:23

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

    Wonderful: Hebrew: “pele'” “פלא”; meaning: “wonderful”, “marvel”, “extraordinary”; from Hebrew: “pala'” “פלא”; meaning: “wonderful”, “marvellous”, “extraordinary” [Strong's Concordance] [Gesenius's Lexicon].

    Wonderful: Hebrew: “pil'iy” “פלאי”; meaning: “wonderful”, “extraordinary”, “incomprehensible”; from Hebrew: “pala'” “פלא”; meaning: “wonderful”, “marvellous”, “extraordinary” [Strong's Concordance] [Gesenius's Lexicon].

    In one, the “Angel of the LORD” appears and when asked his name, he says “it [is] secret” [ “wonderful”, “marvellous”, “extraordinary”] and it is said of CHRIST JESUS that HIS name will be called “Wonderful”.

    Both words used mean the same thing and are from the same root. Manoah said that he and his wife had seen “GOD”, speaking of the “Angel of the LORD”.

    MICHAEL/JESUS has a more excellent name as already seen, “...a more excellent name...” Hebrews 1:4.

    Also compare to: And Jacob asked [him], and said, Tell [me], I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it [that] thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. Genesis 32:29

    Jacob asks the very same question as Manoah [Judges 13:7-8].

    "The Angel of HIS Presence" is called the one who, in his pity and love, saves and redeems from all evil and GOD is the Only Saviour and Redeemer and JESUS is called the Saviour and Redeemer:

    And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. Genesis 28:12

    And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I [am] the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; Genesis 28:13

    Jesus Christ is Jacob's Ladder:

    And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. John 1:51

    Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?...who hath established all the ends of the earth? what [is] his name, and what [is] his son's name, if thou canst tell? Proverbs 30:40

    "...God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me," Genesis 48:3;p

    "The Angel which redeemed me from all evil..." Genesis 48:16;p

    For he said, Surely they [are] my people, children [that] will not lie: so he was their Saviour. (Isaiah 63:8)

    In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9

    "...I [am] the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm..." Exodus 6:6;p

    "...like Israel, whom God went to redeem for a people to himself, and to make him a name... which thou redeemedst to thee from Egypt, [from] the nations and their gods?" 2 Samuel 7:23;p

    "...people Israel, whom God went to redeem [to be] his own people..." 1 Chronicles 17:21;p

    "...O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer." Psalms 19:14;p

    Redeem Israel, O God, out of all his troubles. Psalms 25:22

    And they remembered that God [was] their rock, and the high God their redeemer. Psalms 78:35

    And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. Psalms 130:8

    "...Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." Isaiah 25:9;p

    "...I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 41:14;p

    I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour. Isaiah 43:11

    "...the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel..." Isaiah 43:14;p

    Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God. Isaiah 44:6

    "...the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" Isaiah 44:24;p

    "...I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me." Isaiah 45:21;p

    [As for] our redeemer, the LORD of hosts [is] his name, the Holy One of Israel. Isaiah 47:4

    "...the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I [am] the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way [that] thou shouldest go. Isaiah 48:17

    "...the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, [and] his Holy One ... the LORD that is faithful, [and] the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee." Isaiah 49:7;p

    "...I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob." Isaiah 49:26;p

    For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. Isaiah 54:5

    [CHRIST JESUS is the Husband, the Bridegroom]

    "...I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer." Isaiah 54:8;p ... see also passages on the Redeemer and Saviour:

    Isaiah 59:20, 60:16, 63:16

    Jeremiah 15:20,21, 50:34

    John 20:28

    Acts 5:31, 13:12

    Galatians 4:5

    Philippians 3:20

    1 Timothy 1:1

    2 Timothy 1:10

    Titus 1:4, 2:13,14, 3:6

    2 Peter 1:1,11, 2:20, 3:18

    In one passage the “Angel of HIS Presence” saves and redeems from "all evil" [Genesis 48:16] in HIS love and pity, yet also that only GOD is the Saviour and Redeemer.

    Still, the LORD is the Saviour and Redeemer and further, that it is CHRIST JESUS who is the Saviour and Redeemer from all iniquity and evil.

    MICHAEL is CHRIST JESUS, the very "presence of GOD", the HIGHEST MESSENGER of the FATHER's Love, and the Love of GOD.

    It is said of the “Angel”, “In all their affliction he was afflicted ...he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.” Isaiah 63:9

    Who is it that is afflicted for us, bears and carries us? CHRIST JESUS:

    "... the LORD thy God bare thee..." Deuteronomy 1:31;p

    And [even] to [your] old age I [am] he; and [even] to hoar hairs will I carry [you]: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver [you]. Isaiah 46:4

    But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5

    ... he shall bear their iniquities. Isaiah 53:11;p

    ... so he was their Saviour. Isaiah 63:8;p

    MICHAEL [WHO IS LIKE UNTO GOD?] What is HIS name? How Shall We Call HIM?

    "...The LORD, The God of hosts, [is] his name ... Wonderful ... The King Of Glory ... IMMANUEL..."

    Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression ... Micah 7:18;p
  7. Nik0s

    Nik0s Guest

    Because it is.
    The Protestant Reformers were heretics as well. Although I heard Luther was fun to hang out with. :cool:
    Micheal's name is in the form of a question. "Who is like unto God?" Meaning no one is.
  8. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

    Christian Seeker
    Uhmmm, I guess this guy's parents committed blasphemy when they named their son Michael, huh?^_^

    And their brethren of the house of their fathers were, Michael, and Meshullam, and Sheba, and Jorai, and Jacan, and Zia, and Heber, seven. 1 Chronicles 5:13

    PS. Michael means "who is like God?"
  9. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    #1. When it comes to heavenly beings, the names actually describe what the celestial being is. You cannot compare the names of heavenly beings as paralleling what we name people on earth.

    #2. It is debated as to whether that name is truly in the form of a question. Nonetheless, the implication of the question is readily apparent: That Michael is as God is. Other definition: "One who is as God is". The notion that it is a question does not deter from what is being implicated. The implicated answer to the question is: Yes, Michael is as God is. Otherwise, it makes no sense for the name of a celestial being to ask such a question without implicating an actual characteristic of that being.

    At any rate, all I ask is that you seriously consider the scriptures provided by 3 Angels, and then form your conclusion based on the "totality" and "entire weight" of evidence from the scriptures.

  10. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    See my response to Lion King above.
  11. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

    OK, so let us now look at [Part 2] of zeke37's post in this [as Part 1, and even part 3 were primarily addressed in the OP, but more will come on Part 3 a little later]...

    "The LORD rebuke thee."

    MICHAEL rebukes satan [the accuser] saying, “the LORD rebuke thee.”

    Both “the Angel of the LORD” [JESUS CHRIST/MICAHEL] and the “LORD” rebukes Satan saying, “the LORD rebuke thee.”

    The Great Controversy between CHRIST/MICHAEL and satan here with Joshua the Highpriest:

    And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. (Zechariah 3:1)

    And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire? (Zechariah 3:2)

    Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. (Zechariah 3:3)

    And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. (Zechariah 3:4)

    And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by. (Zechariah 3:5)

    The "LORD said unto Satan..." "...the LORD rebuke thee...". Satan was there to "resist him" [CHRIST JESUS] [for this was none other than the "LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem"] for what HE was about to do for Joshua the Highpriest who was "clothed with filthy garments" and had "iniquity".

    The "filthy garments" represented the unrighteousness of Joshua and his "iniquity" [sin], also his character and works [Isaiah 64:6]. Clothing is scripture is a symbol of the character. White raiment is a symbol of CHRIST's spotless character, HIS perfect righteousness. Notice that this "angel" and "angel of the LORD" that Joshua the Highpriest stands before is the one who "have caused thine iniquity to pass from" him. Who alone can forgive sin? [Mark 2:7; Luke 5:21; Psalms 51:4; etc] This is no mere being before Joshua, but it is CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF, and satan stands against them, accusing of the "iniquity" of the Highpriest Joshua.

    It is the same with Moses...

    [JESUS CHRIST, the RESURRECTION and the LIFE], also says the same when contending with Satan over the body of Moses.

    MICHAEL/CHRIST came to resurrect Moses and to take him from the clutches of the grave, death and satan. [Romans 5:14]

    Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 1:9)

    In Zechariah it says the “LORD” rebukes Satan, who is resisting HIM, by saying, “the LORD rebuke thee” and in Jude, concerning MICHAEL/JESUS who is contending with a resisting Satan, says, “the LORD rebuke thee.”

    Notice the “Angel” before Joshua the High Priest says, “Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with a change of raiment.”. JESUS gives us HIS righteousness and takes away our iniquity:

    Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. (Psalms 51:9)

    And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. (Psalms 130:8)

    Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy. (Psalms 132:9)

    I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels. (Isaiah 61:10)

    And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me. (Jeremiah 33:8)

    Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause [you] to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. (Ezekiel 36:33)

    He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. (Micah 7:19)

    [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (Romans 4:7)

    For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (Hebrews 8:12)

    And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (Hebrews 10:17)

    He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Revelation 3:5)

    I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. (Revelation 3:18)

    And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. (Revelation 4:4)

    After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Revelation 7:9)

    And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Revelation 19:14)

    Please, also notice that MICHAEL would not bring against Satan, even at this time, a “railing accusation”:

    Railing: Greek: “blasphēmia” “βλασφημία”; meaning: “slander”, “impious speech”, “blasphemy” from Greek: “blasphēmos” “βλάσφημος”; meaning: “speaking evil”, “reproachful speech”, “slanderous accusation” [Strong's Concordance] [Thayer's Lexicon].

    Since MICHAEL is JESUS, HE would not even sin before HIS incarnation by speaking evil or blaspheming.

    Also, who is the only one with the power to Resurrect the Dead?

    We see that Moses was raised from the Dead and the Grave by MICHAEL [whose voice can raise the dead, 1 Thessalonians 4:16]? We have only Turn to the Gospels to see further evidence:

    And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. (Matthew 17:3)[Elijah never died, for he was translated alive and taken up into Heaven]

    And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. (Mark 9:4) -take careful note that this appearance of Moses and Elijah was no mere dream or vision, but truly happened -

    But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. Luke 9:32

    And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean. (Mark 9:10)

    "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses..." (Romans 5:14;p), for we see that Christ Jesus/Michael Raised Moses and was the first to be so raised in such a fashion and taken to heaven, for Enoch and Elijah never died, while others were raised and died again, awaiting their resurrection still in sleep...

    [There is an awesome typology given here [Moses, Elijah and Jesus, all glorified] that Peter also addresses in His epistles, which can be discussed later]

    ...to be continued...
    Last edited: May 7, 2012
  12. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

    Christian Seeker
    Seriously? Are you just making this stuff up as you go?:sorry:

    PS. It is blasphemous to give ANY creature (whether in heaven or on earth) the name reserved for God. Michael is not the name of God.
  13. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

    Let us look now at the "man" [who wrestles with Jacob] who gives a new name and compare to ALMIGHTY GOD who gives a new name:

    And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. (Genesis 32:24)

    And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. (Genesis 32:25)

    And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. (Genesis 32:26)

    And he said unto him, What [is] thy name? And he said, Jacob. (Genesis 32:27)

    And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. (Genesis 32:28)

    And Jacob asked [him], and said, Tell [me], I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore [is] it [that] thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. (Genesis 32:29)

    And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (Genesis 32:30)

    Jacob says unto the "man", "Tell [me], I pray thee, thy name.". See also Manoah, etal., who asked the same of CHRIST JESUS that came down unto them.

    Jacob declares, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." This was no ordinary being, or "man", this was GOD ALMIGHTY - JESUS CHRIST, the very "angel" "of the LORD" [SON of the FATHER].

    "And God appeared unto Jacob again ... blessed him." (Genesis 35:9;p)

    And God said unto him, Thy name [is] Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. (Genesis 35:10)

    "And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply..." (Genesis 35:11;p)

    [Notice, "fruitful and multiply", compare to Genesis and Abraham, etc]

    And God went up from him in the place where he talked with him. (Genesis 35:13)

    "...by his strength he had power with God:" (Hosea 12:3;p)

    Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him [in] Bethel, and there he spake with us; (Hosea 12:4)

    Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD [is] his memorial. (Hosea 12:5)

    "...the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." (Genesis 17:1;p)

    And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. (Genesis 17:2)

    And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, (Genesis 17:3)

    "Neither ... called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham..." (Genesis 17:5;p)

    "And God said unto Abraham ... thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah [shall] her name [be]." (Genesis 17:15;p)

    And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham. (Genesis 17:22)

    "... the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram ... gavest him the name of Abraham;" (Nehemiah 9:7;p)

    "...thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name." (Isaiah 62:2;p)

    Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. (Isaiah 62:4)

    "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona..." (Matthew 16:17;p)

    "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter..." (Matthew 16:18;p)

    "...To him that overcometh will I give ... will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it]." (Revelation 2:17;p)

    "...I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name." (Revelation 3:12;p)

    A “man” wrestles with Jacob and gives him a new name, “Israel”. ALMIGHTY GOD gives the new name to Abram and Sarai, being “Abraham and Sarah”. JESUS gives a new name to Simon, “Peter”. GOD went up from them and Jacob said he had seen GOD face to face. Saul meets CHRIST JESUS, now called "Paul", after the road to Damascus event:

    Then Saul, (who also [is called] Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him, (Acts 13:9)
  14. eachallberg

    eachallberg N/a

    United States
    Christian Seeker
    In Relationship
    God is spirit, not man.
    Michael isn't God or Jesus.

    Why would most angels be adamant about anonymity but the name Michael is thrown out there?

    Im more interested in the One that sent the messenger.
  15. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

    Hi Lionking, please take some time with these posts, as more are coming, and consider that the scriptures are not designating Michael as a created being [and neither am I], since He is Jesus, he is Uncreated, Creator - God [the Son]. Jesus is the name He took while taking upon himself humanity. Michael means as the OP points out means "Who is Like unto God?" and this is the perfect question that satan [a creature] must come to in the battle with Christ Jesus. If you have specific questions, let us go over them, and please take note that there is still yet much more to come. Thank you!
  16. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

    Christ/Michael is that messenger, of the Father...

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

    Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:1

    Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Hebrews 3:1

    In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. Isaiah 63:9
  17. someguy14

    someguy14 Guest

    All of Gods own desire that God rebuke them. "The Lord rebuke thee"!
  18. Lysimachus

    Lysimachus Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

    1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
    3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
    3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

    We thus see exactly where the author of Jude derived this quote.

    Thus we see that for Michael to tell the Lord to rebuke Satan does not mean that Michael cannot be the Lord. For in this very passage, the Lord is addressing Satan and saying that the Lord rebuke thee.

    Michael is referring to himself in second person.

    There is one more important reference in which the angel of the Lord appears in the Old Testament. The prophet Zechariah was given a vision of Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord. Satan is standing at his right hand to resist him. Here we see two adversaries contending over a sinful human being. Joshua's filthy garment symbolizes his sin. (Zechariah 3:3).

    In this narrative, the name changes quickly from "the angel of the Lord" (verse 1) to "the Lord" (verse 2), indicating again that they are the same. Then the Lord makes an interesting statement. "And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan" (Zechariah 3:2). There is only one other place in Scripture, Jude 9, where this sentence is found—and Michael the archangel speaks it!

    In the short epistle of Jude, we witness a vignette similar to Joshua and the angel in Zechariah. "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee" (Jude 1:9). The situations are amazingly parallel: Christ and Satan are contending over the fate of two of God’s great human leaders (a living one in the case of Joshua, and a dead one in the case of Moses). The debate is ended abruptly when Jesus says, "The Lord rebuke thee."

    This passage raises another valid question. Some people are confused by part of this verse in Jude 1:9 where Michael rebukes the devil. They wonder: If Michael is really another name for Jesus, then why does he invoke the name of the Lord when rebuking Satan? Why not do it Himself as He did when tempted in the wilderness. "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan" (Matthew 4:10).

    In studying the Scriptures and language of Jesus, we quickly see it was a very common practice for Jesus to speak of Himself in the second person, as in Luke 18:8: "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" And if there is still any lingering question, we have this other clear Scripture in Zechariah 3:2, where the Lord does the same thing Michael does in Jude. He invokes His own name when rebuking the devil. "And the LORD said to Satan, 'The LORD rebuke you, Satan!'" Perhaps these Scriptures are examples of God the Son, appealing to the name of His Father in rebuking Satan. ~ Who Is Michael The Archangel?
  19. eachallberg

    eachallberg N/a

    United States
    Christian Seeker
    In Relationship
    I strongly believe satan was told more than once, "the Lord rebuke you".

    So what? Jude derived a quote from Enoch, and thats NOT in the bible.

    The argument that the angel Michael is Jesus floats in the air.
    Peace be with you, your very well.
  20. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

    Christian Seeker
    In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

    Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion. Jude 1:8-11

    Why was the archangel Michael scared to condemn satan?

    hint: because he is NOT God...The LORD alone is the Judge of all.:thumbsup: