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The Great Controversy - Michael vs Dragon

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by 3 Angels Messages, May 6, 2012.

  1. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    Hello again LionKing,

    The answer to this text has just recently been given, so I will post the link in case it was missed while replying! : http://www.christianforums.com/t7655126-4/#post60485547
     
  2. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    I don't see your answer to my question in that particular link.. Also, to be honest, the bulk of your posts seem to be littered with totally irrelevant stuff.:sorry:

    PS. Where does it say in the Scriptures that Michael resurrected Moses?:confused:
     
  3. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    Is this your answer? Are you actually saying what I think you are saying?

    But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get you behind me, Satan: you are an offense unto me: for you consider not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Matthew 16:23

    So, did Christ commit a sin by accusing satan in that above passage?
     
  4. OpenDoor

    OpenDoor Faith + Hope + Love

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    If Michael is an angel, then he is a created being.
    God is not a created being.
     
  5. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    Let us now look at "The Angel of the LORD" and "The Angel of GOD" passages and compare further:

    "And the angel of the LORD found her ..." (Genesis 16:7;p) [asking questions, as Jesus/God does throughout]

    And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go?... (Genesis 16:8;p)


    "And the angel of the LORD said unto her...". (Genesis 16:9;p)


    And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly... (Genesis 16:10;p)


    And the angel of the LORD said unto her, ... the LORD hath heard thy affliction. (Genesis 16:11;p)


    And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? (Genesis 16:13)


    ... well was called Beerlahairoi... (Genesis 16:14;p)


    Beerlahairoi: Hebrew: “Bĕ'er la-Chay Ro'iy” “באר לחי ראי”; meaning: “well of the Living One seeing me” [Strong's Concordance] or “well of the life of vision” [Gesenius's Lexicon].

    And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he [is]. (Genesis 21:17)

    "...I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 21:18;p)


    And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I. (Genesis 22:11)

    [Compare to, "Jacob, Jacob..." [Genesis 46:2] and "Moses, Moses..." [Exodus 3:4] and "Simon, Simon..." [Luke 22:31] and "Martha, Martha..." [Luke 10:41] and "Saul, Saul..." [Acts 9:4, 22:7, 26:14] and "My God, My God..." [Psalms 22:1; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34]]

    "...I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me." (Genesis 22:12;p)

    And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said [to] this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. (Genesis 22:14)


    And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, (Genesis 22:15)


    And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD... (Genesis 22:16;p)


    "...I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed ..." (Genesis 22:17;p)


    "...thou hast obeyed my voice." (Genesis 22:18;p)


    Jehovahjireh: Hebrew: “Yĕhovah yireh” “יהוה יראה”; meaning: “YHVH sees” [Strong's Concordance].

    And the angel of God spake ... (Genesis 31:11;p)

    "...I have seen all that Laban doeth..." (Genesis 31:12;p)


    I [am] the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, [and] ... vowedst a vow unto me: ... (Genesis 31:13;p)


    And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me... (Genesis 28:20;p)


    ...then shall the LORD be my God: (Genesis 28:21;p)


    And this stone ... shall be God's house: and ... I will surely give the tenth unto thee. (Genesis 28:22;p)


    And God came unto Balaam at night, ... but yet the word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou do. (Numbers 22:20;p)


    And God's anger was kindled ... and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him... (Numbers 22:22;p)

    And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand... (Numbers 22:23;p)


    But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards... (Numbers 22:24;p)


    And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD... (Numbers 22:25;p)


    And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where [was] no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left. (Numbers 22:26)


    And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD... (Numbers 22:27;p)


    And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass... (Numbers 22:28;p)


    Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. (Numbers 22:31)


    And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because [thy] way is perverse before me: (Numbers 22:32) [Notice, "perverse before me"]


    And the ass saw me, ..., surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive. (Numbers 22:33;p)


    And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again. (Numbers 22:34)


    And the angel of the LORD said unto Balaam, Go with the men: but only the word that I shall speak unto thee, that thou shalt speak. So Balaam went with the princes of Balak. (Numbers 22:35) [speaking only the words of the LORD, neither adding, neither subtracting]


    And Balaam said unto Balak... the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak. (Numbers 22:38;p)


    And God met Balaam... (Numbers 23:4;p)


    And the LORD put a word in Balaam's mouth,... (Numbers 23:5;p)


    ... Must I not take heed to speak that which the LORD hath put in my mouth? (Numbers 23:12;p)


    ...while I meet [the LORD] yonder. (Numbers 23:15;p)


    And the LORD met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth,...(Numbers 23:16;p)


    But Balaam answered... All that the LORD speaketh, that I must do? (Numbers 23:26;p)


    And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. (Judges 2:1)


    ...but ye have not obeyed my voice:... (Judges 2:2;p)


    ... I will not drive them out from before you; ... (Judges 2:3;p)


    ...the angel of the LORD spake these words ... (Judges 2:4;p)


    "...they sacrificed there unto the LORD." (Judges 2:5;p)


    "And there came an angel of the LORD..." (Judges 6:11;p)


    And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD [is] with thee, thou mighty man of valour. (Judges 6:12)


    And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, ... saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD ... (Judges 6:13;p)


    And the LORD looked upon him, ... have not I sent thee? (Judges 6:14;p)


    ...Oh my Lord, ... (Judges 6:15;p)


    And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee,... (Judges 6:16;p)


    ...If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me. (Judges 6:17;p)


    Depart not hence, I pray thee, until I come unto thee, and bring forth my present, and set [it] before thee... (Judges 6:18;p)


    And Gideon went in... and presented [it]. (Judges 6:19;p)


    And the angel of God said unto him, Take ... and lay [them] upon this rock, and pour out the broth... (Judges 6:20;p)


    Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff ... consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight. (Judges 6:21;p) [the gift sacrifice was accepted, even in a burnt offering]


    "...an angel of the LORD, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD face to face." (Judges 6:22;p)


    And the LORD said unto him, Peace [be] unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die. (Judges 6:23)


    "Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovahshalom..." (Judges 6:24;p)


    Jehovahshalom: Hebrew: “Yĕhavah shalowm” “יהוה שלום”; meaning: “YHVH is peace” [Strong's Concordance].

    Many texts say the “Angel of the LORD” and “Angel of GOD” which are seen speaking in the first person, “I will bless...”, “I will multiply...”, “I will be with thee...”, “Have I not sent thee?”, “Ye have not obeyed my voice...”, “By myself I have sworn...”, “I will make him a great nation...” and are always connected directly with GOD HIMSELF:

    ...of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, ... (Acts 3:25;p).

    These are JESUS CHRIST/MICHAEL.
     
  6. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    Hi Open Door,

    The word "angel" simply means "messenger", and has no other inherent connotation in it. It can refer to Jesus/ Michael - GOD [the Son, Uncreated Creator], or even of the Holy Spirit [God, Uncreated Creator], being "sent" from the Father [God, Uncreated Creator], or it may also refer to man, or to an "angel" [angelic being of the heavenly host, a created being]. The context always dictates to the additional connotation that word "angel" is to have throughout. We shall come to this a bit later for specific examples and comparisons.
     
  7. OpenDoor

    OpenDoor Faith + Hope + Love

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    Do you view Michael to have always existed? Or was there a time when Michael did not exist?
     
  8. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    Let us ask a few questions. Was Jesus yet a human in the previous verses [Zechariah 3, Jude 1:9]? Is Jesus now also man in Matthew 16:23?
     
  9. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    Always existed, since He is Jesus - God [the Son].
     
  10. OpenDoor

    OpenDoor Faith + Hope + Love

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    In Jude 1:9 when Michael says, "The Lord rebuke you". What is your understanding of this?
     
  11. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    No, Christ Jesus never commited any sin, at any point ever, neither before, nor after taking upon himself humanity.

    "...lamb shall be without blemish..." [Exodus 12:5]

    "...the innocent blood..."[Matthew 27:4]


    "... lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him."[Luke 23:15]

    "... this man hath done nothing amiss." [Luke 23:41]

    "...I have kept my Father's commandments..." [John 15:10]

    "... I find in him no fault [at all]."[John 18:38]

    "... I find no fault in him." [John 19:4]

    "... I find no fault in him."[John 19:6]

    "...the obedience of one..." [Romans 5:19]

    "...who knew no sin..."
    [2 Corinthians 5:21]

    "...without sin."
    [Hebrews 4:15]

    "...[who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners..." [Hebrews 7:26]

    "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:"[1 Peter 2:22]

    "...in him is no sin."[1 John 3:5]


    "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God..."Hebrews 9:4;p
     
  12. OpenDoor

    OpenDoor Faith + Hope + Love

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    Also, in Hebrews 1:5 what is your understanding of, "to which of the angels did God ever say..."
     
  13. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    Again, the context is speaking of the Father and of the Son [both Uncreated Creator; Hebrews 1:8], and so when we come to Hebrews 1:5 and its "angel" passage [already knowing that the word "angel" simply means "messenger", and it is the context which further declares connotation], we then consider the context, that this "angel" passage is referring to those "angels" which are of the created Heavenly Host, like Gabriel, Cherubim, Seraphim, Lucifer etc. For the passages of Hebrews are showing how Christ Jesus [GOD, the Son] is above all that which is created, He is ruler [some passages KJV use the word "prince" "sar"] of all.
     
  14. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    What does this have to do with anything?
     
  15. OpenDoor

    OpenDoor Faith + Hope + Love

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    So you agree that no angel (in any sense of the word) was ever told, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you".

    Correct?
     
  16. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    It has to do with the position of Christ Jesus before and after taking upon Himself humanity:

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Philippians 2:6

    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: Philippians 2:7

    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:8
     
  17. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    Why did you claim that Christ would have sinned if He had "accused" satan before His Incarnation?



    Also, you haven't answered my other question:

    Where does it say in the Scriptures that Moses was resurrected unto eternal life (by Michael) before Christ?
     
  18. Lion King

    Lion King Veni, vidi, vici

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    Go on...
     
  19. 3 Angels Messages

    3 Angels Messages Well-Known Member

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    Though my previous reply should already answer your question, but I will yet answer again, but before I answer, I will also ask, and require an answer of thee...

    Is Christ Jesus also called "the Apostle" [Hebrews 3:1], "messenger of the covenant" [Malachi 3:1], "the angel of His presence" [Isaiah 63:9], "sent of the Father" [John 5:23], "the presence of God" [Psalms 68:8], "the Angel of the Lord" [Exodus 3:2], "his angel" [Daniel 3:28]?
     
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